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PatS3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I stay at home with my four children, I watch my sister's two children (the oldest I am actually getting custody of), occasionally I watch my cousin's children when they need it and a couple people in the neighborhood, including a member of the board asked me to take their kids to the bus and pick them up. Normally I would just say no, but I have a special needs infant and these people come here and sit for me when I need it, which is at least 2 days a week. I can't afford to pay for a nanny, I need this exchange. In addition, I host a playgroup and for a while I was doing some free infant photography to get a portfolio so I could apply to an art school. I had maybe 6 people come in with babies for pictures, I didn't charge anything and I have the ads I posted and email communication to prove that.

I understand that I have a bit of traffic with children, it's compounded by the fact that we have home healthcare nurses and medical supply deliveries in unmarked cars, my oldest child is from another marriage and leaves with his dad and my relatives may have my mom or their husbands pick up the children, meaning I could actually watch two kids for the week and see four different people come and go. I also offer items on freecycle weekly so I have 5 or so visitors picking up free items instead of throwing them in the trash (I'm one of THOSE people, vegetarian, home gardening cloth diapering, lol)

My HOA accused me of having a home business a year ago, I wrote them a letter explaining everything and it was dropped. A few months ago they sent me another letter where they said I have 10 days to stop running a home daycare and they contacted all kinds of local agencies. I spoke with those agencies and they said there was no actual evidence of a home daycare and it is a non-issue. In fact, when I got the first letter I called and asked if I am legally allowed to watch my relative's children and they said yes. The law states I can watch 3 children plus any related to me every day before it is considered a home business.

So, I sent a letter back stating again I am not running a business. They are suing us now for non-compliance. My husband attended an HOA meeting in which they said they have all this evidence against us, like makes and models of cars and tax records (I have "other" income claimed because my sister pays me an allowance for food and other things because her children come here most often. My ex-husband knows this and I have to claim it as my income in child support hearings. It is NOT much money, it was like $2k in income last year total).

The HOA wants me to provide make and model and license plates of cars of my relatives and guests to prove I am being honest. Ok, I have no problem getting those for my most frequent visitors but they want to compare their list with mine and the problem is my neighbor (the one filing the complaint, head of the compliance committee and neighborhood busybody) wrote down all of my guests, people I did pictures for, home nurses, freecycle, healthcare supply deliveries, etc. The list of people that actually come here on a regular basis is like four families with maybe 2-3 cars each. They also want me to get letters from the agencies they reported us to saying they certify me as not having a business. Does this make any sense? Shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? How exactly do you get state childcare licensing to come to your house and verify you do NOT have a home daycare? The woman laughed at me and said she wasn't getting into our HOA squabbles.

The neighborhood busybody never said anything to us about it being a disturbance, when he first reported us last year it said that kids were playing in the street and it was unsafe. My kids never, ever play in the street- I have a big backyard and a huge finished basement. Last year my kids were 8, 3, 1 and newborn- how exactly are they in the street? It was laughable. My husband talked to the guy and he said because he is a nurse he is a mandated reporter if he sees an unsafe situation. He said he has a hard time taking care of HIS four kids let alone more. That's not the HOA's business how large my family is or how many kids I can personally care for vs he can care for. This is really just an obnoxious, pointless complaint that has little evidence but the HOA is proceeding with the lawsuit.

So what exactly do I do? Do I just hand over thousands of dollars to the HOA for non-compliance? I can't afford to pay them off, if I could afford thousands of dollars I would just hire a nanny and tell my family to go to hell. I don't LOVE the situation I am in, who wants to barter childcare so they can spend a week in the hospital with their baby? However, I think it is asking too much to say I have to stop having playdates or limit my guests. I have 2 days a week on average with NO ONE HERE M-F and never guests on weekends, so we're talking about maybe a few guests 3 days a week. I'm not some suburban drug dealer with enormous amounts of foot traffic, I have parking for 4 in my driveway plus three spaces in front of my house, my guests have NEVER damaged any property, blocked a driveway or anything else.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
i pity your situation, but, bartering is the same as payment

the HOA does have a point

whether it is a court enforceable point point ????

unless you have the $$$$$ to fight this i suggest you comply

ps. HOAs are akin to fascist government (private ownership, govt control) .... this is what you agreed when you joined the HOA
PatS3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 10
Posted:
My husband is quite upset and would probably take out a loan to hire a lawyer and fight this. My question is what equates compliance then? If I pay for a separate babysitter for my kids? Ok, I do that and I still do EVERYTHING else then I would be back in compliance, right? I started looking for work a few months ago and have my kids signed up for the local preschool that starts in a month but my baby got much worse and requires round the clock medical attention. I was even accepted to a college (remember the portfolio work I did), but I have to put that on hold now too. The guy complaining has his house for sale now, I wonder really how this will stick once the person complaining moves?
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Pat,

I counted approximtely 10 kids? Can you understand why anyone, including the Board would be suspicious of all of this activity? And as John said, it is not your money or income they are challenging, it is the traffic that is in and out.
PatS3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Donna,

I understand it to a point. My playgoup has 146 moms and their kids and who shows up at a playdate varies greatly. I said that I watch neighbor kids before and after the bus for a few minutes to an hour but these are people who live in the neighborhood. The dad is on the board, but I think he joined because he was having problems with the same busybody I am. He doesn't attend many meetings. I find it very strange that they have make and model info on cars and somehow "didn't know" that a member of their own board comes here and is aware of the fact that I don't run a daycare.

My problem is that we have explained what is going on and that we understood their concerns but the traffic for kids I actually watch is limited to three days a week and I certainly don't watch ALL of those kids at once. I may have my cousin's kid a day or two one week, not at all the next, etc. The busybody's wife has a very similar amount of traffic with her own playgroup and neighbors, etc. If this was some super quiet townhouse community where we are on top of each other and everyone was elderly except me that is one thing, but this is a community of families and I don't know of a single house with less than 2 children, two doors down they have 6 plus a home business that does carpet install and cleaning and park 3 big vans out front. There is another family across the street that the parents are psychologists or something and they work from their home seeing patients.

It seems terribly hypocritical that there are these OBVIOUS businesses but I have to argue if bartering constitutes a home daycare just because my neighbor sits in front of his house writing down license plate numbers of anyone that comes here.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Well - then besides the NOISE and the TRAFFIC, what is their complaint?

The activity at your home does not support your claim.

Sorry . . . if it walks like a duck . . .
PatS3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Susan, I am confused as to why you are assuming there is a noise complaint at all? My neighbor has complained that I have an illegal business and he claims he is concerned about the care of the children involved because he is a nurse and a mandated reporter and cannot care for his own 4 children. The township and the state childcare licensing board disagreed that I run a daycare. He is using the traffic that is almost entirely unrelated to actual child minding, i.e. medical deliveries, nurses, freecyle and playgroups to prove a point that does not exist. Not once has anyone complained about excessive noise.
RonM4 (Maryland)
Posts: 26
Posted:
In Maryland, where I live, if you watch 2 or more children that are non blood relatives for more than 20 hours a month they consider you running a daycare even if you do not receive payment.

We have a day care operating against our covenants. I've been told by our HOA that since I am the only one that complains about it they weren't going to do anything about it.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
if you receive ANY COMPENSATION (whether monetary or other, whether for expenses or not) for your 'baby-sitting' you are running a business

the irs would not be happy re: undeclared income
PatS3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 10
Posted:
John, I understand that and the only income I have ever gotten, was reported. Like I said, it is a minimal amount, supplementing food costs. I do not think there is a place on my 1040 where I can claim my sister babysat my kids as some form of income. I am actually in the process of getting gaurdianship of one of my sister's children and the amounts she gives me will be done though domestic relations, similar to child support.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
good luck to you .. but .. the HOA holds the high cards
PatS3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Thanks John, I see that as being the case as well. I'm just not entirely sure what to do.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
"The township and the state childcare licensing board disagreed that I run a daycare."

If a complaint was filed and these agencies inspected then there should be a formal resolution of the complaints in the files which should be public record. I would get copies of the report and present them to the BOD.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
They are suing us now for non-compliance.


Has the HOA actually served papers stating they are suing you, summons or a complaint with damages?
TishS (Washington)
Posts: 116
Posted:
I think you need to check into your state laws regarding a daycare. If the state would call this a daycare (in mine they would) I think you are going to be on the losing end of this deal and you may have additional problems for running an unlicensed daycare.
MicheleH1 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
A give and take with babysitting duties is not against the rules or the law. But by your own admission, you take money for this service to help pay for the expenses you incur as a result of watching the children. Someone giving you money for a product or for a service is, by definition, a business transaction.

I would also like you to consider why they are coming down on you. They probably did not wake up one day and decide to make you miserable. Chances are they received complaints from your neighbors..whether because of the extra traffic or the noise (again by your own admission there is a lot of extra traffic and lets face it...kids are noisy) what you are doing is creating a nuisance and causing a hardship for your neighbors.

I am not sure how things are run in your community but unless a problem is obvious our board is reactive rather than proactive on issues like this.
We dont go looking for trouble but once it is brought to our attention we have to act on it.

Not knowing the layout of your community perhaps you can make some changes to the level of traffic. Try having people stop their cars at a pool or clubhouse parking lot (anywhere there are extra spaces) and have them walk their child to your home. Maybe you can work out a sked with the deliveries you receive so they can come at times when you dont have a lot of other traffic or when most of your neighbors are gone for the day. Belive me when I tell you that if the neighbors don't have anything to complain about than the association has nothing to act on.

Of course none of this helps when you are taking money for your expenses, the only solution I can think of is for your family members and friends drop off their childrens' lunches and diapers or other items they may need throughout the day so you do not need to lay out any money that will later need to be reimbursed.
JoelM1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 61
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonM4 on 08/26/2010 7:20 AM
In Maryland, where I live, if you watch 2 or more children that are non blood relatives for more than 20 hours a month they consider you running a daycare even if you do not receive payment.

We have a day care operating against our covenants. I've been told by our HOA that since I am the only one that complains about it they weren't going to do anything about it.

(Sorry to bring up an old posting, but I was doing a search and saw this)

RonM4,

In Maryland if it is even one non relative (not necessarly blood relative) for more than 20 hours you need a license - not sure if the is what you mean by "consider you running a daycare."

What part of your covenants is the home daycare violating? Do you have the actual wording? I am looking into this topic for my HOA so I am interested to see the wording used for home daycare bans in other MD HOAs.

Thanks.
MicheleH1 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
RonM4,

Chances are the violation is that they are running a business. Most HOA documents do not allow anyone in the community to conduct/run a business out of their home.

Michele
JoelM1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 61
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleH1 on 09/30/2010 7:10 PM
RonM4,

Chances are the violation is that they are running a business. Most HOA documents do not allow anyone in the community to conduct/run a business out of their home.

Michele

In Maryland a home daycare is not considered a business - it is considered residential activity. As such, CCR's against commercial businesses do not apply to home daycares. In order to prevent a home daycares an HOA's covenants must specifically forbid home daycares.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Test!
JohnD14 (New York)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Bartering cannot be taxed, thus it's not considered "payment" to a business.
SureshD
Posts: 268
Posted:
If the "commercial" activity is out of sight... life goes on.

If ANY activity is creating a nusiance or is "noxious" then it would need to be curtailed to the point of eliminating the nusiance ONLY.

If one argues that 4-6 cars coming to a parcel twice a day as being a nusiance then there may be some other situation regarding the road construction, layout, size, etc. causing a problem associated with this activity.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:


If I were to have a nickle for every time I hear the words "sue the s... out of your HOA", would not I be a rich person. Those should be words of last resort. Have you not figured out that ALL of the owners pay the cost of legal endeavors, including you? Geez man, how about dialog and compromising?
MicheleH1 (Florida)
Posts: 14
Posted:
PatS3,

In Pennsylvania, home based daycare/child care centers are regulated by Pennsylvania Code. CHAPTER 3270.

The two most important codes for your situation are:

§ 3270.3. Applicability

(a) This chapter applies to facilities in which out-of-home care is provided, at any one time, for part of a 24-hour day to seven or more children, 15 years of age or younger...

And, unfortunately for your situation, your own 4 children are counted as part of that 7 your are allowed to watch without a license.

§ 3270.53. Children of an operator or a staff person:

(a) The related or foster children of an operator and the children or foster children of a staff person shall be counted for the purpose of satisfying the staff/child ratio requirements in § § 3270.51 and 3270.52 (relating to similar age level; and mixed age level).

(b) The related or foster children of an operator and the children or foster children of a staff person shall be counted for the purpose of satisfying the allocated space capacity requirements in § § 3270.61 and 3270.62 (relating to measurement and use of indoor child care space; and measurement and use of play space).

As far as your HOA goes, even if your daycare was not considered a business by the state of Pennsylvania, your HOA can still restrict you from doing it. Even if Pennsylvania says you can do it. Your community is a private community and is therefore allowed to establish rules and regulations that everyone must follow.

Think of it this way, the state of Pennsylvania allows people to own 18 wheelers. That does not mean your association has to allow 18 wheelers to be parked in your community. The state of Pennsylvania does not have a law that says you cannot paid your home bright pink, but your homeowners association is within their rights to restrict you from doing that.

ALLLLLLLLLLLL that being said, your first step needs to be to get licensed, and you need to do it ASAP! Once you are licensed, apply to the board of directors for a waiver. Write a letter explaining your situation and what you would like to do. Include in this letter your daycare license and list the actions you will take to make sure your operation does not disturb your neighbors.

As the president of an association, myself and the other board members would have a hard time saying no. We would give the waiver under the condition that you stop causing a "nuissance" for your neighbors. And if the neighbors start complaining again than the waiver will be withdrawn.

Please dont give up. In this horrible economy the fact that you have opened your home to take care of children so their parents can work is noble. Hard and very noble. (compensated or not)

MicheleH1

For JoelM1,

A daycare center run out of a home is considered a business and it is regulated by the state laws of Maryland. You can read up on the Maryland state laws regarind home child care by reading COMAR 13A.15

JoelM1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 61
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleH1 on 10/03/2010 2:39 PM
PatS3,

For JoelM1,

A daycare center run out of a home is considered a business and it is regulated by the state laws of Maryland. You can read up on the Maryland state laws regarind home child care by reading COMAR 13A.15


Michelle,

Certainly home day cares are regulated by the state of Maryland, but in 1989 it was ruled that a home day care is not considered a "commercial activity." As per the Maryland HOA act, a covenant restricting commercial activity in an HOA does not prevent a home daycare from operating as home day cares have been determined to be residential activity - not commercial. The only way for an HOA in Maryland to prohibit a home day care is if they specifically have a CCR prohibiting home day cares (as opposed to the umbrella "commercial activity" type of covenant).

The Maryland HOA act incorporates the notion of a home day care not being considered a commercial activity:

"(1) Subject to the provisions of subsections (d) and (e) (1) of this section, a
recorded covenant or restriction, a provision in a declaration, or a provision of the bylaws or rules of a homeowners association that prohibits or restricts commercial or business activity in general, but does not expressly apply to family day care homes or no-impact home-based businesses, may not be construed to prohibit or restrict:"

http://www.schildlaw.com/housinglaw-leg.htm#s11b-111.1

It goes on to outline what an HOA must do to prohibit home daycares.

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