HOA Board installing drainage pipe without a permit

It is my understanding in the State of NC you need a permit to change or install anything into a stormwater runoff drainage swale The permit is not in our Assn name it is still in the Builders name. I went to the meeting before they started digging a ditch on my property and explained what the State requirement was but to no avail. They have gone ahead and dug the ditch and getting ready to put the pipe in. The State informed me they have not received any plans from the builder or BOD to revise the original plans. Is there anything I can do to stop them from putting this in my yard. There is no easement for stormwater drainage only a maintenance easement. The Board has not explained anything to me as to why they have to do this project only to say it will take the water from the berm. Can anybody help me and give me any information on who to contact to stop this. The State has been told but by the time they get here it will be to late. Don't know what impact this will have on my property as I am the last house getting the water from the homes above above me to go into the drain at the corner of my property.

Concerned homeowner.

Steve - Thank you for responding. I originally contacted the BOD and advised them to contact the state before starting the project. It didn't work. My plat of my land shows no stormwater easement behind my house. The easement is a landscaping easement only. I call the City and someone told him over the phone to stop working, however, he is still continuing to work. He went over to the City and they told him to cease until the State issued them a permit. They still are placing the pipe. They refuse to listen to anyone. I told them to stay off my property that they were trespassing but they still didn't listen. They are about to cut a root to my river birch tree and if they do it will probably die. The only thing I can do at this point is wait for the City to come and give them a stop work order. Any other suggestions?

John - Thank you. It looks like they have stopped at the present. I have told them they are trespassing and the city told them to cease their work until they can come out and inspect. I just told one of the workers that about 30 mins ago. I hate to play hardball, but, I also thought of calling the police. I'm waiting for the City to come out and see what they have to say. The State won't do anything but write a letter to the builder whose name is on the permit. The City may tell them to go ahead. If the City says OK, then I will be OK with what they are doing. Then if it floods my property I will at that point take further action because it will be a monetary suit for property damage.

Steve - Thanks again. I called the City again and the inspector is now out in the field. If he comes here I don't know. I just ask the man in the back if the city said they could continue and he said yes. You are right about the police. It is now all in the hands of the State and City unless I want to sue them. Really don't have the money to do that. I have reached the end for help other than court. It's a shame the city makes homeowners get permits but not contractors or BOD's. It's a same we don't have some type of system to help homeowners and BOD's with out civil court actions to solve disputes likes these. Thanks everybody for your input, but there is nothing else I can do.

Nancy,

Did you not say that the platt of your lot shows a "landscape easement" behind you? If that is the case, that is NOT your land. But besides that, how stupid is this Board to alter any waterflow without a State permit. Why are they doing this? Was there flooding or some other issue with the water collecting?

SteveM9 No they didn't have a permit. The city came out an inspected what they were doing and said it was OK. There is nothing more I can do. I'm done. My property lines use to be marked, but somewhere over the years they have disappeared. I would have to have someone come out and measure and find my stakes again. I mow at the end of the berm and the landscaper mowes everything else. No need for more homework, I've done all I can do. The State won't enforce anything and the city is letting them complete the job. The only thing for me to do is see how it will work out and if it does damage to my property will have to decide if I want to take it further. Appreciate your responses.

Good idea, thank you.

Ahh the wetlands..... There are many other agencies you could call on for this. First off, this development wouldn't have been made without the blessing of the wetlands people. Might have been army core of engineers, EPA, or the people who issue fines the North Carolina Department of Environment and Natural Resources.

I'm sure they would be very interested in a change of water flow. The site was approved as planned by the developer. This new plan may not be well thought out.

Hey Donna - Thank you for the information. See my reply to Steve below. There is a question at the end I would like for you to comment on.

Donna - When I was on the Board before I had to fight 5 men about rules and regs and different discussions. I outlasted everyone of them. Then when the Pres of the Board was elected back on after he quit and the homeowners were so nasty to me about upholding our Covenants I resigned the day I was relected because one man was making it a personal thing. And of course the small claims case I won against them. I do believe some where down the road there will be problems with what they have done now. I really don't want to get into it with them if I am on the Board. The State said this type pipe they installed (sock pipe)as long as it is not installed into the water basin does not go against the permit and by not hooking into the water basin they doubt it will do anything. I'll be talking with the City today and calling a surveyor because they have planted a doubt about my property line and if there is a stormwater drainage easement at the back of my property. All maps I have do not show one. After everything done the State and City say it's OK if they don't hook into the water basin that is in the corner of my property.
I don't know you, but I appreciate everyones input. If you ever want the outcome and I'm not sure I should put this out there you could email me at [email protected]. Thanks again.

Nancy,

I haven't read all the messages in this thread but just want to make one comment.

Even if the pipe is on your property, the HOA may have authority to do work on the pipe w/o your consent and it's their resp to put the property back to it's original condition. Just like the electrical and cable boxes that are on properties. If the HOA fails to get the proper permits that's their problem not yours.

Well Nancy,

It seems that you have a good case to force the board to move that pipe. You will need to have County or State water management districts involved. What I really don't understand is that if all of these lots are hilly, why are they trying to direct water from it's natural flow.

Careful, if you do nothing and your house does flood, your insurance company could refuse to pay the claim. Then you will be on your own to hire a lawyer and flood experts to sue the HOA.

Its a good possibility they can put it on the landscaping easement and you cant do anything. Not telling you about it was a huge mistake.

Nancy,

If there is no easement for this drainage pipe then IMO it shouldn't cross over your property. I mean, how would the HOA get to the pipe if they can't come onto your property? Perhaps, as Donna says, the pipe should be removed. Of course that doesn't help you out now. Frankly I think you should consult with an attorney to know exactly what your rights are and to answer your question about the landscaping easement.

OK folks here is the outcome of this discussion. I went to small claims court today. The BOD had an attorney, letters from other homeowners and my friend next door testifying how they appreciated what the BOD had done. The attorney attacked my caracter and had all my emails thrown out that was part of my evidence. What it comes down to is I did not prove my case. The attorney took sections of the covenants under easements where it states the BOD can change alter,etc easements, etc whenever they want to. There is more under these easements sections which I did not bring out. Stupid on my part, this is why I needed an Attorney. They also had a permit from the Town (I believe) that was given after the pipe was put in, which gave them permission to put pipe in but not attach to drain basin and this was given to them before I proved the pipe was on my property. When my emails were thrown out there went my proof because this was where the Town told me they would have to remove the pipe. The Town's letter meant nothing either. When I took the
pipe out it corrected my problem but when they capped the pipe on neighbors propety and buried it under sod it looked like they were the same and if I had left the pipe in there would not be any damages. The Engineers report meant nothing. Bottom line is get everything in letters and I needed an attorney in small claims court because it was done like the higher courts not a small claims court. The Town and State assured me they had not issued any permits but, apparently they did. Apparently their letter didn't mean anything. I kept telling the magistrate that there was no easement and proved it on my plat with pictures. I called the Town and they could not believe the verdict. I asked them to check and see if they did issue the permit. I haven't heard anything from them. Of course the Pres. said they put the pipe in and were working on getting the permit to attach to the basin. Of course they are now, but didn't in the beginning this was all done after they did the work. I called my attorney after the case and he said he was sorry and if I wanted to take it further to let him know. I do feel like taking it further, but the price would triple or more than what my expense were. Need to win the lottery. Anyway, it's not over yet, now the BOD has to get a permit to hook to basin. The State wrote Mr. Swain and email and told them they will only approve if pipe is in a right of way, common area or approved easement. Will have to wait and see what the State decides. Thank you for all your messages. I'm done in.

Nancy,

Even if you can prove that the pipe was placed on the property before the permit, what price will you have to pay financially and through stress to take a chance in court to prove it?

I understand fighting for principal. I really do.
Sometimes fighting because of principal can be expensive.

Only you can decide if the principal of the issue is worth more than the additional $400 they are asking for.

Tim

Typically, most laws consider any charges to be treated as assessments.
Expecting this to be the case, if your governing documents or State laws allow for suspending voting privileges for unpaid assessments, the answer is yes.

If you fight it, it's likely that the suspension of privileges could stay in place until the issue is resolved.

Yep. This is because the Board sees it as an assessment and, per governing documents (if applicable), can suspend voting privileges (and/or access to amenities)for unpaid assessments. It's a case of your word against theirs and they (just like you) can take any legal steps to protect their position until a judge/jury rules.


Even if they won't let you vote, they can't stop you from attending the meeting or speaking at the meeting (providing it's done politely).

Mind you I'm pointing out worst case.
Your attorney could respond to the bill with a letter that their attorney says it's not worth the effort or the Board says it's not worth the effort. However, they could also respond by filing a lien, suspending privileges, etc.

I'm just trying to point out all the possibilities so you can make an informed decision.

Nancy,

The other option, and check with your lawyer about this, is to pay the money under protest so you may retain your voting rights, access to amenities, etc. Then, again check with your attorney, you can still fight the issue if you chose.

Did I mention to check with your attorney before considering this option?

Tim, thank you again. It doesn't matter if I can vote or not. At the annual meetings the Board doesn't bring up anything that needs to be voted on, so no problem there. We have no amenities so no problem there. I have checked with my attorney and she told me that most civil courts will not hear anything under $5,000. That I have the same choice that Ted stated, to pay it an move on, or wait until the Board takes it further and just live with the negativity they spread around the neighborhood. So I have decided to wait and see exactly what the Board does in the future. Thanks to you for your comments. Nancy

Nancy:

Sounds to me like you may be playing with fire for $392. Hardly worth the risk.

If the notice sent o you is not paid within 30 days sounds like it becomes a lien on you and possibly your property (home). If so under some cases the Board could move to foreclose on your home. Now if that occurs you will need a lawyer to respond and defen this action the cost of which will be WAY over the $392.

Now you can see this any way you wish but what I see is that you followed through on this and went to court and the court decided against you. To be blunt you lost.

Just what did that cost the property? Just what did that cost you and your neighbors? Now you suggest you will not volunteer payment. IMO this is not a charge that should be covered by the property but rather by YOU.

IMO the best way out is to pay the amount owed. Close the matter and move on.

If not you can sit back and stand on principle and run the risk of losing more $$$ or maybe your home.

You fought the fight and lost. Let it go. You refusing to pay proves nothing it just prolongs the issue that will not serve you.

This is information I was looking for. Thank you for your advise. Like I told Tim I'm headed to attorney to respond to their letter that was not signed by any officer of the Board.

John,

At this point Nancy has made an informed decision to fight for the principal of the issue.

I think many of us start out fighting our Board on principal. Then as we gather more information, we make an informed decision to let that fight go and save the fight for a different time. Reading this thread, Nancy has already fought once and lost on technicalities. Many, including myself, have specified some of the possible consequences. Per her posts, she is consulting with an attorney on the issue as well. Therefore, her decision should be an informed decision.

Tim

Update:

See the following thread for an update to this issue:

Subject: Board taking homeowner to court