Repair of Common Elements

Started by AndyA • 16 replies • 6703 views

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AndyA (New Jersey)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Our condo association master deed states that the association is responsible for maintenance, repair and restoration of common elements. Included in common elements are girders, beams, supports, structural and bearing parts, main walls and subfloors.

If a condo owner requests that their sunken subfloor be repaired, what latitude does the association have in responding to such a request? If the subfloor does not represent a safety hazard would that be grounds to deny the request? What are the legal precedents for such situations? Anything else that should be considered?

Thanks

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

On the face of it the HOA must make any necessary repairs to the subfloor.

You should notify the BOD in writing, certified mail, return receipt requested of your safety concerns regarding the sub-floor in question.

If the situation is not resolved properly (not necessarilly to your personal liking) an engineers report followed by attorney's advice would be the next steps.

Was the floor like this upon purchase or is the problem new and ongoing?.

GOOD LUCK

CAVEAT EMPTOR

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Andy could you explain what a subfloor consists of in your situation?

Location?

What floor?

Material?

What type of flooring is currently on top of the subfloor?

Perhaps with some more details we might be able to advise you.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

Anything else that should be considered?

Its possible the failing subfloor is part of a bigger issue and not the owner just being annoying. If the sub floor fails, the building could cave in. You need a professional to give you a quote before you decide how to approach this.

AndyA (New Jersey)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Yes, the subfloor in question is beneath the second floor of the condo. The current floor is plywood under carpeting. The floor is supported by truss joists. The trusses are deflected by as much as two inches over a twenty foot span. Some of the connector plates are failing at the points where the chords are spliced together.

So far the BOD has taken the position that it is not a safety hazard and therefore not the responsibility of the association.

As is the case with many associations, our association is trying to keep monthly dues down and therefore wants to minimize unnecessary expenditures.

Andy

RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AndyA on 07/01/2010 6:36 PM
Yes, the subfloor in question is beneath the second floor of the condo. The current floor is plywood under carpeting. The floor is supported by truss joists. The trusses are deflected by as much as two inches over a twenty foot span. Some of the connector plates are failing at the points where the chords are spliced together.

So far the BOD has taken the position that it is not a safety hazard and therefore not the responsibility of the association.

As is the case with many associations, our association is trying to keep monthly dues down and therefore wants to minimize unnecessary expenditures.

Andy

First, try to work with the board on this issue. While it might not be a safety issue right now it certainly could become one and who is to determine when that might happen? As a board member, I would not want to take that responsibility in any way.

Has there been an inspection by a licensed structural engineer? If so, does the board agree with the findings? If no such inspection has occurred I would suggest having one done. Given that this is your unit, yet the association may be responsible for repairs, maybe offer to split the cost of hiring a structural engineer.

I would keep all correspondence in writing whether it be hard copy or email. I wouldn't try to fight with them, rather get them to be in your shoes. What would they want if it was their unit?

I can understand the board could be shying away because of costs involved. However, this could turn into a serious structural defect. In addition, typically units are built in similar ways meaning more than your unit could be affected thereby raising repair cost significantly.

However, regardless of cost, the board in my mind has an obligation to properly address the situation. If they say its not a safety hazard, then ask them how that was determined, was a professional involved in the decision?

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

Quote:

Sounds like you REALLY REALLY REALLY need a professional engineer's report.
Do it at your own expense and present it to the BOD .....
they will then have to address the issue or their actions would become WILLFUL neglect ... not covered by D&O insurance.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

the 'creepy-crawly' method of time consuming pleasant appeasement is one factor leading to actual structural collapses ... many times the preliminary signs are ignored or 'poo-pooed' in the hope that they will go away at least until the next BOD takes over .... then its back to square one

the problem described (if accurate) is a virtual emergency ... if the BOD does not attempt to mitigate damages before a potential collapse or vacate order they are most definately breaching their fiduciary duty

if one can't afford the developement --->> move out

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

twenty foot span. Some of the connector plates are failing at the points where the chords are spliced together.

Ummm.... yeah, that's a huge safety issue. 20 feet is a huge span and a failure in the middle could lead to a total building failure. Your BOD has no idea what they are talking about.

If you cant afford a structural engineer (i don't know how big this condo is), then you must get a local contractor over to at least give you a free estimate on a repair. Give the estimate to your BOD and ask for a repair decision within 30 days or less.

PS. Don't involve the city or building inspectors. They will condemn the building and not let you back in.
PPS. Whoever built a 20 foot span with connector plates and no structural supports is an idiot.

AndyA (New Jersey)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Thank you for the insights. Is the crux of the issue whether this represents a safety issue? In other words, if it is not a safety risk, but only a cosmetic inconvenience then the board has no responsibility?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

if it is not a safety risk, but only a cosmetic inconvenience then the board has no responsibility?

I wouldn't say that, but if its a safety risk, it sure does change the priority. If its cosmetic, it needs to be fixed and is the associations responsibility, but may not be high priority. If you deny the owner the repair, you risk a lawsuit, but you may be able to schedule it in at a later date to appease him.

Ask yourself this, would you want the condo owner fixing the floor joist himself and risk collapsing the building? No. It clearly falls under the responsibility of the association to repair structural items.

AndyA (New Jersey)
Posts: 13

Posted:

The condo owner is planning to remodel the kitchen and bath with granite countertops adding 800-1000 pounds of load on the structure, can the board stop the work?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

can the board stop the work?

Sure, they can ask nicely for him to stop and give him a date you will fix the floors. (Fixing the floors will probably crack his granite counter top leading to more expenses for the association)

Or you can call the building inspector and have the building condemned, but that wont work out well for the association.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Don't make any decisions until you get a free estimate on fixing it. It maybe cheaper than you think.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Andy:

Just curious how old is your building?

How do you know the connectors running along the 20' span are failing?

Have you pulled up the floor to expose the problem?

And if so at those connections there is no support from below?

How many stories is your building?

You are on what floor?

And do YOU own the unit in which you live? If so who is the unit owner planning to install granite??? Are they above you or is that the unit you live in?

800 lbs spread out over the average size kitchen is not IMO a lot of extra weight.

If you have a party with five friends you just passed that.

AndyA (New Jersey)
Posts: 13

Posted:

JonD1 -

The building is about 23 years old and is three stories high. Each condo is three stories so no one is above or below.

The ceiling in the basement is open so the trusses are visible, which is how the failing connector plates can be viewed. On the bottom chords at the splice points they look like they are peeling off. This is the typical failure pattern. On the top chords at the splice points it looks like the plates are bending and the two pieces of lumber are starting to separate. Again, that's typical of failure, according to a structural engineer who looked at it. He also said it's hard to say when the original damage to the trusses happened. It could be load related or the trusses could have been damaged in the original construction.

Running a string nailed 2" below the bottom of the trusses at each end and pulling it tight, it touches the bottom of the truss in the middle of the span.

I own the unit and am renovating in preparation to sell. I need to upgrade the kitchen and bath and install granite or quartz countertops.

A general contractor (and professional building inspector) who came in to look at the bathroom also took a look at the trusses and said the place would not pass a home inspection until they are fixed.

Yes, a party with five friends or two friends from the Biggest Loser show.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AndyA on 07/02/2010 8:25 AM
The condo owner is planning to remodel the kitchen and bath with granite countertops adding 800-1000 pounds of load on the structure, can the board stop the work?

YES they most definately can stop ANY modification that affects structure until you get a P.E.'s certification on a filed 'signed-off' drawing.

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