HOA MANAGEMENT

Teresa,

I've copied below the HOA state statute which governs inspection of books and records. Read it so you will know what you are allowed to ask for.

With regard to the mgmt co, they are contracted with to provide assistance to the board members in running the assn. They work for the BOD and are hired by the BOD. They are not hired by the members; therefore cannot be fired by the members. You say you and some other members are displeased with the manager and also think their fee is too high. Frankly I don't know how any member would even know what a good fee is for a mgmt co. Different areas of the country may command higher or lower fees and the fee is also dependent upon the size of the HOA and exactly what is involved to manage the assn. As for being displeased with the serves, exactly what does that mean -- the manager doesn't return your phone calls fast enough to suit you? One big thing to remember is that because they work for the board they must do what ever the board instructs them to do. Note that the state statute requires you to state for what purpose you want the membership list so that's probably why the manager asked what you were going to use it for.

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Davis-Stirling Act
Civil Code §1365.2. Inspection of Books and Records.

(a) For the purposes of this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(1) "Association records" means all of the following:

(A) Any financial document required to be provided to a member in Section 1365.

(B) Any financial document or statement required to be provided in Section 1368.

(C) Interim financial statements, periodic or as compiled, containing any of the following:

(i) Balance sheet.

(ii) Income and expense statement.

(iii) Budget comparison.

(iv) General ledger. A "general ledger" is a report that shows all transactions that occurred in an association account over a specified period of time.

The records described in this subparagraph shall be prepared in accordance with an accrual or modified accrual basis of accounting.

(D) Executed contracts not otherwise privileged under law.

(E) Written board approval of vendor or contractor proposals or invoices.

(F) State and federal tax returns.

(G) Reserve account balances and records of payments made from reserve accounts.

(H) Agendas and minutes of meetings of the members, the board of directors and any committees appointed by the board of directors pursuant to Section 7212 of the Corporations Code; excluding, however, agendas, minutes, and other information from executive sessions of the board of directors as described in Section 1363.05.

(I)

(i) Membership lists, including name, property address, and mailing address, if the conditions set forth in clause (ii) are met and except as otherwise provided in clause (iii).

(ii) The member requesting the list shall state the purpose for which the list is requested which purpose shall be reasonably related to the requester's interest as a member. If the association reasonably believes that the information in the list will be used for another purpose, it may deny the member access to the list. If the request is denied, in any subsequent action brought by the member under subdivision (f), the association shall have the burden to prove that the member would have allowed use of the information for purposes unrelated to his or her interest as a member.

(iii) A member of the association may opt out of the sharing of his or her name, property address, and mailing address by notifying the association in writing that he or she prefers to be contacted via the alternative process described in subdivision (c) of Section 8330 of the Corporations Code. This opt-out shall remain in effect until changed by the member.

(J) Check registers.

(2) "Enhanced association records" means invoices, receipts and canceled checks for payments made by the association, purchase orders approved by the association, credit card statements for credit cards issued in the name of the association, statements for services rendered, and reimbursement requests submitted to the association, provided that the person submitting the reimbursement request shall be solely responsible for removing all personal identification information from the request.

(b)

(1) The association shall make available association records and enhanced association records for the time periods and within the timeframes provided in subdivisions (i) and (j) for inspection and copying by a member of the association, or the member's designated representative. The association may bill the requesting member for the direct and actual cost of copying requested documents. The association shall inform the member of the amount of the copying costs before copying the requested documents.

(2) A member of the association may designate another person to inspect and copy the specified association records on the member's behalf. The member shall make this designation in writing.

(c)

(1) The association shall make the specified association records available for inspection and copying in the association's business office within the common interest development.

(2) If the association does not have a business office within the development, the association shall make the specified association records available for inspection and copying at a place that the requesting member and the association agree upon.

(3) If the association and the requesting member cannot agree upon a place for inspection and copying pursuant to paragraph (2), or if the requesting member submits a written request directly to the association for copies of specifically identified records, the association may satisfy the requirement to make the association records available for inspection and copying by mailing copies of the specifically identified records to the member by first-class mail within the timeframes set forth in subdivision (j).

(4) The association may bill the requesting member for the direct and actual cost of copying and mailing requested documents. The association shall inform the member of the amount of the copying and mailing costs, and the member shall agree to pay those costs, before copying and sending the requested documents.

(5) In addition to the direct and actual costs of copying and mailing, the association may bill the requesting member an amount not in excess of ten dollars ($10) per hour, and not to exceed two hundred dollars ($200) total per written request, for the time actually and reasonably involved in redacting the enhanced association records as provided in paragraph (2) of subdivision (a). The association shall inform the member of the estimated costs, and the member shall agree to pay those costs, before retrieving the requested documents.

(d)

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), the association may withhold or redact information from the association records for any of the following reasons:

(A) The release of the information is reasonably likely to lead to identity theft. For the purposes of this section, "identity theft" means the unauthorized use of another person's personal identifying information to obtain credit, goods, services, money, or property. Examples of information that may be withheld or redacted pursuant to this paragraph include bank account numbers of members or vendors, social security or tax identification numbers, and check, stock, and credit card numbers.

(B) The release of the information is reasonably likely to lead to fraud in connection with the association.

(C) The information is privileged under law. Examples include documents subject to attorney-client privilege or relating to litigation in which the association is or may become involved, and confidential settlement agreements.

(D) The release of the information is reasonably likely to compromise the privacy of an individual member of the association.

(E) The information contains any of the following:

(i) Records of a-la-carte goods or services provided to individual members of the association for which the association received monetary consideration other than assessments.

(ii) Records of disciplinary actions, collection activities, or payment plans of members other than the member requesting the records.

(iii) Any person's personal identification information, including, without limitation, social security number, tax identification number, driver's license number, credit card account numbers, bank account number, and bank routing number.

(iv) Agendas, minutes, and other information from executive sessions of the board of directors as described in Section 1363.05, except for executed contracts not otherwise privileged. Privileged contracts shall not include contracts for maintenance, management, or legal services.

(v) Personnel records other than the payroll records required to be provided under paragraph (2).

(vi) Interior architectural plans, including security features, for individual homes.

(2) Except as provided by the attorney-client privilege, the association may not withhold or redact information concerning the compensation paid to employees, vendors, or contractors. Compensation information for individual employees shall be set forth by job classification or title, not by the employee's name, social security number, or other personal information.

(3) No association, officer, director, employee, agent or volunteer of an association shall be liable for damages to a member of the association or any third party as the result of identity theft or other breach of privacy because of the failure to withhold or redact that member's information under this subdivision unless the failure to withhold or redact the information was intentional, willful, or negligent.

(4) If requested by the requesting member, an association that denies or redacts records shall provide a written explanation specifying the legal basis for withholding or redacting the requested records.

(e)

(1) The association records, and any information from them, may not be sold, used for a commercial purpose, or used for any other purpose not reasonably related to a member's interest as a member. An association may bring an action against any person who violates this section for injunctive relief and for actual damages to the association caused by the violation.

(2) This section may not be construed to limit the right of an association to damages for misuse of information obtained from the association records pursuant to this section or to limit the right of an association to injunctive relief to stop the misuse of this information.

(3) An association shall be entitled to recover reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney's fees, in a successful action to enforce its rights under this section.

(f) A member of an association may bring an action to enforce the member's right to inspect and copy the association records. If a court finds that the association unreasonably withheld access to the association records, the court shall award the member reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney's fees, and may assess a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars ($500) for the denial of each separate written request. A cause of action under this section may be brought in small claims court if the amount of the demand does not exceed the jurisdiction of that court. A prevailing association may recover any costs if the court finds the action to be frivolous, unreasonable, or without foundation.

(g) The provisions of this section apply to any community service organization or similar entity, as defined in paragraph (3) of subdivision (c) of Section 1368, that is related to the association, and this section shall operate to give a member of the community service organization or similar entity a right to inspect and copy the records of that organization or entity equivalent to that granted to association members by this section.

(h) Requesting parties shall have the option of receiving specifically identified records by electronic transmission or machine-readable storage media as long as those records can be transmitted in a redacted format that does not allow the records to be altered. The cost of duplication shall be limited to the direct cost of producing the copy of a record in that electronic format. The association may deliver specifically identified records by electronic transmission or machine-readable storage media as long as those records can be transmitted in a redacted format that prevents the records from being altered.

(i) The time periods for which specified records shall be provided is as follows:

(1) Association records shall be made available for the current fiscal year and for each of the previous two fiscal years.

(2) Minutes of member and board meetings shall be permanently made available. If a committee has decisionmaking authority, minutes of the meetings of that committee shall be made available commencing January 1, 2007, and shall thereafter be permanently made available.

(j) The timeframes in which access to specified records shall be provided to a requesting member are as follows:

(1) Association records prepared during the current fiscal year, within 10 business days following the association's receipt of the request.

(2) Association records prepared during the previous two fiscal years, within 30 calendar days following the association's receipt of the request.

(3) Any record or statement available pursuant to Section 1365 or1368, within the timeframe specified therein.

(4) Minutes of member and board meetings, within the timeframe specified in subdivision (d) of Section 1363.05.

(5) Minutes of meetings of committees with decision making authority for meetings commencing on or after January 1, 2007, within 15 calendar days following approval.

(6) Membership list, within the timeframe specified in Section 8330 of the Corporations Code.

(k) There shall be no liability pursuant to this section for an association that fails to retain records for the periods specified in subdivision (i) that were created prior to January 1, 2006.

(l) As applied to an association and its members, the provisions of this section are intended to supersede the provisions of Sections 8330 and 8333 of the Corporations Code to the extent those sections are inconsistent.

(m) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any common interest development in which separate interests are being offered for sale by a subdivider under the authority of a public report issued by the Department of Real Estate so long as the subdivider or all subdividers offering those separate interests for sale, or any employees of those subdividers or any other person who receives direct or indirect compensation from any of those subdividers, comprise a majority of the members of the board of directors of the association. Notwithstanding the foregoing, this section shall apply to that common interest development no later than 10 years after the close of escrow for the first sale of a separate interest to a member of the general public pursuant to the public report issued for the first phase of the development.

(n) This section shall become operative on July 1, 2006.

Thank you Glen. My plan is to get on the board. There are quite a few issues with this Management Co. not just getting back to me after a few times. I did tell them my reason for obtaining all homeowners was not for commerical use.
I have other people i know in other subdivisions that have expressed the same concerns as myself and others here about the same Management Co. we share.
Is there a certain Ariticle I can look for that states if a certain percentage of homeowners sign a petition asking for a special vote for obtaining new bids for a new Management Co.
Thank you so much for responding

T,

Slow down. Join the board. Learn the characters and make up of your HOA board. Are you sure you haven't developed a reputation for chronically contacting the property management company with complaints, lessening your effectiveness and their response? We're all humans and when we've had enough, we tend to zone out on people.

Joining the board in order to fire the property manager - one that is popular with the current board- will likely leave you frustrated. Begin your service slowly and you may find that complacency has set in regarding the property management company. Your existing board may be content because they cannot recognize better treatment and customer service that another management company can provide. After several years, you would not know the difference. Also, many people find it difficult to fire someone or a company not to mention contract buyout issues that cost your neighbors thousands - and their sentimental feelings towards neighborhood reform into negative feelings about hurting their investment in the HOA. Another point is that your board service may help the management company do a better job....HOA boards can impede their property managers, sometimes willfully but other times with realizing it.

Don't expect the board or the property manager to assist you in doing your homework in finding your neighbors, especially since you're on the record of using that information against the people whose help you're requesting. Changing vendors must be done quietly and convincingly. You must come armed with facts and build your case against a "Friend" of the HOA board - the management company.

The odds are very good that your assertions hit the bullseye. But it's subjective and the board majority will throttle you with negative votes to preserve their pride if nothing else.

I wouldn't be so strong in my word choice if I was not dealing with a new board member who currently joined because, in essence, the entire board is stupid. I am the president of this board and was bombarded with demands, entitlements to information and anything you could imagine. Our vendors complained of verbal harassment. After a few months, I've blacklisted this person from my email and can only reach the board president via the property management company.

Entering HOA service on a positive note will serve you tremendously while allowing you direct communication with the property management company.

Kelly,

I can't tell how helpful this is. After this latest dealing with them I got so frustrated. But your advice is the best choice besides all other informative information I have received from everyone.

My first board meeting I really was attacked for just asking questions. I have not told anyone of my intentions except for my reply to the board member who said what she did in regards to the Management. This helps me more than I can say. I will continue to do my homework and prepare myself when elections are held.

Any advice you have on how you would proceed to get started besides getting to know my neighbors I would surely welcome anything you have to say

Again Thank you so much I can't tell you how much I appreciate your honesty

Teresa

Teresa,

You have gotten some very good advice here! I would simply like to say that new Board members often bring new perspective and fresh ideas to the Board table. As you talk with your neighbors, you might also encourage them to run for the Board. Those with positive leadership qualities and good communication skills could be an asset. Change takes time.

Good luck!
Deborah

T,

If you're extroverted enough, walk door-to-door and meet the neighbors. I've not found a single homeowner in my community, and we have people have nothing to do with the HOA, who will not discuss the neighborhood. They all want info on what's happening, what projects are underway, etc. My bet is that you'll hear that many people don't say anything because they've grown numb to the HOA board's methods of operation or have no faith in your board's ability to do anything above the very basics of property maintenance and management.

Regarding getting shouted down at your first meeting, I can see that. My experience is that a full 1/3 of the board is likely a board member for social reasons. They have no concept of your HOA's budget or the current economy's effect on it. Therefore, getting good value for the HOA's dollar isn't something they can recognize. You heard, "There are more factors than price!" Right? That could reflect lack of education or awareness to the particular issue. You'd be amazed how many HOAs out here have board members who'll oppose basic property maintenance expenses while insisting on pretty flowers, water fountains and other aesthetics that are nice IF your HOA is flush w/ cash (and many are not these days).

Hang in there and work slowly. It could take a year to develop a proactive reputation on your board. It's when you propose an idea that your board likes and THEN the property manager bungles it in helping you achieve the board's directive that they'll get their first sense of problems. If the company isn't good, they'll certainly screw up. If you see that the property manager does get the job done, then the issue may be the receptionist or other secondary official who's blocking residents from reaching the property management.

But, my sense is that your board and the property management know who you are and know what you want in terms of firing them. Like any humans, they will foot drag and move slowly if not ignore a person who feels so strongly against them.

I'm glad to see you post and it's great to read the comments from HOA Talk members with thousands of postings under their belt. They know just enough about the law to be dangerous yet make you think through your options. I'm still operating from common sense and haven't dived into many state statutes and the like as our board doesn't struggle with being open to our members.

Kelly,

I just love you, you are great. I do take notes when I am there and they don't seem to like that. The two older women run the show and the three men are very passive and one of the men I have not seen there in all the meetings I have attended so far.
I have set up an email account and once I get the addresses I thought about sending them thru the mail a form stating if they had any concerns that I would take their comments or concerns to the board for them. I know some people are not good with the confrontation and or have maybe given up.
I have never run from an obstacle. You are right Patience is the best thing to maintain.
What I don't understand is we are all in this to not only get the best we can with our resources but also be cost effective and an HOA management to my logic should be the middle man because they are the go between the owner and Board Members and to me wouldn't a good Management be pleasant when the homeowner is pleasant even asking for a simple question. This has been my experience over and over.

What would be your advice in regards to the e-mail and owners concerns.
My letter will not state any of my personal opinion.
I will just introduce myself and tell them that I attend every meeting and I will take in their concerns and discuss with the Board Members.

Thank you, you are so great. Everyone has been wonderful and I don't feel so alone and lost.
Teresa

T,

I would not become a go-between for concerned neighbors and offer an email address where they can contact you and you then approach the board. If your neighbors care enough, they should and would make time to attend meetings as you are. Otherwise, they'll passively complain to you about their own problems and get frustrated at you for not working for them!

I'll not jump too deeply into the debate of how the relationship between property manager, HOA board and private citizen breaks down. For instance, I see the HOA board as providing a vision for the community and the property manager has the facilitator of those decisions with the board overseeing the manager's effectiveness. It's the property management who'll answer the phone for resident inquiries. Otherwise, I'm deluged with complaints and concerns. I've been a president for two years and am barely now learning this balance. This includes dealing with residents AND with some board members who don't know when to quit or can't imagine you have a life other than working for free for the HOA.

You're frustrated with your current board. The note-taking is noted by your HOA board members. Your intentions for joining the board are clear (fire the property manager). As frustrated as you may be, play cool....it's only volunteer work and ONLY HOA work - a thankless task. Keep that perspective in the grand scheme of our daily existence.

1. Stay cool (Learned this lesson the hard way)

2. Inquire as to how the relationship works between the board and management company. (can be different than you first assess)

3. Ask for the proper protocol for contacting either the board or the property management for assistance. (your board may not know either)

4. Learn your HOA's budget and understand the balance between saving money for emergencies and spending money for daily property upkeep. (It took two years of service to grasp our financial peril and that little expenses eat an HOA alive. It still causes bickering.)

5. Do not expect your neighborly cheerleaders to care enough to get involved in HOA matters. (Expect to hear "I don't have time.")

6. Don't propose any task without offering your board members a full accounting of your proposal (cost, effort involved, expections of them, what you're willing to physically contribute to a project, bids needed. This puts you on the line for your armchair HOA project proposals.

7. Don't fight with the board. (I ignore one of my board members simply because it's constant strife for me - and certainly for the other person. But, I don't gain strength from constantly accusing my neighbors of conspiracies, so I back away)

8. Remember you're all volunteers. You get what you pay for. Some board members want to manage the property and keep things nice. Other board members enjoy the pseudo-prestige of being a neighborhood leader and will sacrifice dues revenue and diligence to be "prestigious and a problem-solver. These are the first people to complain of wasteful spending.

GOOD LUCK!!!!! You've got the right spirit for board service and care for your neighborhood. Work on the tactics and we'll help where we can.

I'm now full-throttle blabbing!!!!!!!!! Have a great weekend!

Hi Kelly,

I am going to print this out and post on my board to read and have in front of me to remind me when I get alittle frustrated

Have a Great Weekend
Thank you again
Teresa

Deborah,

Kelly has been great so informative and supportive. When I first started to read our by laws my head spun. I am not looking for a fight nor confrontations. Everyone I know has their own opinion, but but so far what I have experienced are some of my Board Members are very close minded and do not want to even give me a chance to express myself to be open about other possiblities.
I would love to be able to exchange emails. I so thank you for your kind words and support. I have made it a point on my calendar to put aside the time for the Board Meetings so it becomes a part of my routine. I would love to talk with these Board Members, even just to say how are you, how have you been but they make this so difficult.
If anyone knows how to exchange e-mails I would love the opportunity to contact with Deborah.

Thank you Deborah

Again, Teresa, I think you are jumping to conclusions and yes I DO think it is still too early to say whether you like these people or not.

Again, you have NO idea regarding their history.

For all you know, they may well be burnt out, or they may well have had residents who come to meetings, taking notes, then trying to use them to work against the board or the community and they are very leery of YOU -- as much as you may be of them.

I also know from experience that many people get uncomfortable around direct and assertive women.

How do I know this? Because I are one. And I spent a few decades in a male dominated industry working my way up the corporate ladder.

I learned the hard way to make my first impressions less intense. I'm not suggesting changing your personality or pretending to be meek or subservient. I'm simply recommending taking that huge chip off your shoulder and try to visualize what might be going on inside the minds of the people on the other side of the table.

No telling how many people have come into that room thinking they know it all, or know it better, or have more answers than the people who have probably spent years getting past their OWN learning curve.

Take it one step at a time.

Reset your own impressions of them, and give them the opportunity to do the same with you.

And keep us posted.

There will be a lot of good advice here. But only you can learn your own documents and the political climate of your own board.

Hi Glen,

This is great idea of hilighting and a better way of getting it organized. I know I can't fix it right now nor do I know if I ever will.

My plan was always to wait for elections and do my best and I believe having this time I have to be knowledgeable before I can offer anything to this Board and my community. I have to let some of these frustrations go and concentrate on what I feel is important for me to offer.

I am so thankful I found this website and very appreciative of you and all others who give me all this to take in.

Again Glen
Thank you this so helps me with all the lingo I am trying to understand.
I will keep you posted

Teresa

No offense, BarbaraE, but one size DOESN'T fit all and your grandiose and sweeping generalizations are just that, grandiose and sweeping generalizations, and about as useful and applicable to anyone else's situation as my shoes are.

There are innumerable reasons why a non-condo HOA would benefit, or could benefit from, a management company.

There are also innumerable reasons why a non-condo HOA might not benefit from one, but it's pretty silly to make your statements above without first-hand knowledge of the HOA that is considering or already has a management company, or without knowledge of the thousands of management company vendors that exist.

In particular, an HOA that has limited homeowner involvement in the board, and few if any volunteers either on the board or comprising the various (and often needed) committees, then it would be ridiculous for that HOA to self-manage. It will rapidly deteriorate and become a quagmire to dig out from.

You are right that it's not "rocket science," but it does take a lot of personal time investment, especially if there are lots of ACC approval requirements, lots of common area to maintain, and lots of covenant violations to enforce.

Anyway, self-management is always something to look at, but not all HOAs will find it an appropriate solution. In fact, I think more that already do self-manage might benefit from some form of management company assistance, either in a la carte services like handling the assessment cycles, handling violation notices, or full service.