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Exterior Change without approval - Windows

Started by SharonG1 • 17 replies • 6270 views

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SharonG1 (Maryland)
Posts: 8
Posted:
We have a resident who requested to change the windows and patio door on the back of his home which was disapproved because the grid pattern did not match those currently in the neighborhood. He attended one of the HOA meetings, brought samples with him (he had failed to submit the sample with his application). At the meeting it was brought out that he had already ordered the windows/door and the board did state [to him] that the application would not be approved based on the grid pattern. That decision was followed up with a denial letter from the management company.

The new unapproved windows and door was installed. A violation letter was sent to him. He hired an attorney and his basis is that our denial was not timely. He is counting from the date that he first sent the application to the management company. The application was incomplete and it was returned to him.

At this point, we both have attorneys. His offer of compromise was that they would "enter into an agreement which would allow them to keep the prairie style grid pattern but that once it's time to replace/repair the windows they would change them to an approved style of window". Very generous huh? So basically he gets to break the rules.

As an HOA board, we don't want to injure our resident but we cannot let a blantant violation go... otherwise what is the purpose of having R&R's?!

I'd like to hear if anyone else has had this issue and what their HOA did about it.

THANKS!
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
My upstairs neighbors changed their windows a few years ago without Board approval and got the wrong style. The Board cited them and made them replace them with ones that matched the rest of the building.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
DanielH1 (California)
Posts: 482
Posted:
Tread carefully.

If you go to trial, each side will spend $50,000 to $100,000 or more. By that time, nobody will want to settle because everybody will be fighting on the hope of getting the other side to pay all attorneys' fees.

Everybody thinks that they are 100% right and have no chance to lose. But there are no guarantees, even if you have an ironclad case. The court system is a gamble, maybe you win or maybe you lose. You've always got to be ready to lose.

Really ask yourself if your fellow homeowners want to risk $50,000+ on an ugly window or principles. I know that I wouldn't. I've got better things to spend my money on than lawyers and idiot neighbors.

First, I recommend that you really try to settle. Maybe he can pay a big fine and keep his new windows. Maybe you can try to get his money back from the window company. Maybe you even agree to allow the windows. The guy may be a bully, a jerk and an idiot but suffer through and do everything possible to settle. You probably think that it is impossible but really try. Drag it out, too, and maybe you'll tire him out.

Second, when the windows go in, fine him and lien his unit. He might get his lawyer again but you can fight it out in small claims court. Things are a lot cheaper there and no lawyers allowed.

Another poster on this board had a big court battle over a swimming pool. The homeowner admitted in court that he knew about the rules and ignored them. It looked favorable to the HOA but the homeowner won the case in the end. Everybody paid for their own attorneys' fees: $90,000 for the homeowner and $65,000 for the HOA. The HOA had a big special assessment to pay for the legal battle. Tons of money spent with nothing to show for it.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DanielH1 on 05/13/2010 3:21 PM
Tread carefully.

If you go to trial, each side will spend $50,000 to $100,000 or more.

Really? That much? You know that, how?

We had a trial last 2 years that only cost $9,000 in the end.

We had another trial that lasted a year that cost $6,000.

We had another where a lawsuit was filed, but an agreement was reached (meaning the resident signed an agreement to follow the rules and CC&Rs and to correct the violation) and that one only cost about $2,500.

Anyone can highball and attempt to scare a board away from a lawsuit. But in the end the board must decide whether the lawsuit is worth the cost to maintain the integrity of the documents.

If the original poster is correct with his timeline, then the resident clearly manipulated and misrepresented it.

If the original poster has fact-based support for the timeline, then the case may not even likely get to court.

In this case, I would stay the course and require the homeowner to replace the windows with the proper grid.

Unless I cannot support my timeline.

DanielH1 (California)
Posts: 482
Posted:
The swimming pool lawsuit has the subject of "Above ground pools and temporary structures" by MikeC6 (Illinois):

http://www.hoatalk.com/Search/ForumSearch/tabid/87/forumid/1/postid/26169/view/topic/Default.aspx

Towards the end of the thread, MikeC6 writes: "Our HOA has 70k in legal fees. The homeowner has over 90k in legal fees."
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
My point was that even if one has several anecdotal cases, one cannot possibly apply either a concrete or discrete price tag to a potential lawsuit because there are too many variables.

I would never shy away from enforcement of the restrictions simply on the mere possibility that a lawsuit could be costly.

There are a lot of other things to consider, the integrity of the documents being just one of those things.

I see no reason to compromise at this stage of the game.

These simply cannot be "grandfathered" because there was no change to the restrictions. This was a blatant disregard for the contract and the homeowner is no doubt playing chicken with the board.

He either replaces the grid to the proper specifications -- or removes the windows/door.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Daniel,
If all Hoas were to be guided by your rationalization of not doing anything until you are absolutely sure you are right certainly would negate the need for documents, boards, rules and HOA's. It's true, the Board is elected to serve the association, they are not elected to be right all the time. As far as the association running up bills of 70K for this kind of thing, I doubt it will happen. It is not an uncommon fact that this stuff happens all the time, and I give you there may be some stubborn owner with deep pockets that can cause havoc, but his money is just as valuable as the the associations, he also knows he can lose. If there is some technical law reason that crops up, this is not unusual and if an effort is made to get this to a judge and the association has acted in good faith and with good intent and the laws is clear, this gentleman could find himself receiving the wrath of a judge that does not tolerate foolishness. For every news item you see about someone losing their home because they didn't abide by the covenants there are tens of thousands of those that are settled without a court of law.

Michele makes sense, the board actions make sense, the only thing don't make sense is this guy acting like some kind of people pusher.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Sharon,

My HOA has had many major issues over just this type of "conditional approvals" or arrangements or failing to approve/disapprove an application because they felt it wasn't complete. I can't really offer advise on what to do with past issues and I can only tell you what I have learned from this process and that if you adopt them, it might help prevent a repeat of the issue in the future.

1. Every application needs to be approved or disapproved (with reason why).

No application should be left in limbo. Once received, it needs to be approved or disapproved on it's merit within the time frame allotted. If there is not enough information to approve it, it should be disapproved as submitted with recommendation that the request be re-submitted with complete information.

2. Any extension of time granted must be specific.

Agreeing that something can stay but must comply when replaced or repainted leaves the interpretation open to individual opinions. Who determines the item doesn't work or that the paint can't last another year or two. If the Committee determines that it can stay until it needs repainted, and paint tends to last 5 years max, say that it must be completed by mm/dd/yyyy. This leaves no interpretation for confusion and can clearly be listed on any disclosure statement.

Hope this helps.

Tim
DanielH1 (California)
Posts: 482
Posted:
We'll have to agree to disagree.

Lawsuits can be a significant expense and, from my point of view, often not worth the money. All the rationalizations about principles and integrity of the documents and justice, well, I prefer that my HOA spend that money on fences, paint and landscaping instead.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DanielH1 on 05/17/2010 2:45 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree.

Lawsuits can be a significant expense and, from my point of view, often not worth the money. All the rationalizations about principles and integrity of the documents and justice, well, I prefer that my HOA spend that money on fences, paint and landscaping instead.

That's fine. We spent ours on a handful of lawsuits. We don't need to go that far now because we have a few wins under our belt where the judges have confirmed the strength of our documents. This allows us to get better compliance without having to go that far. We also have fences and landscaping. So an HOA can actually do both, if both are done well.
SharonG1 (Maryland)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Thanks to everyone for their words of wisdom.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
We went to court.

If you allow this sort of behavior it defeats and renders useles ANY rules, regulations of the property owners behavior.

What then do you do when another unit owner takes similar action? Perhaps more out of line?

The first question in court will be "do you have any other non-forming windows?"
and when you answer YES and the Board allowed it you have lost.

If you wish to make your property an individual design you do not belong in a condo property.

But some think they do as they wish whenever they wish as Michelle states it si up to the Board to enforce these rules and restrictions if not they have failed to do their job.

This was not a case where the owner was unaware he acted with the full knowledge he was acting improperly.

The fines on this unit should have already begun and if necessary he should be held responsible in a court of law. IMO
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
The best way to improve your HOA and make it a better place to live is to spend your dues on lawyers. (wink)
DanielH1 (California)
Posts: 482
Posted:
If you really cannot settle, then, sure, sue. But ignore the armchair lawyers who hang around this forum. If it costs you a ton of money, they won't give you one cent to pay it off, even if you followed their poor advice.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DanielH1 on 05/18/2010 10:15 AM
If you really cannot settle, then, sure, sue. But ignore the armchair lawyers who hang around this forum. If it costs you a ton of money, they won't give you one cent to pay it off, even if you followed their poor advice.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
If your association has money, the consistency is important and you have a clear audit trail, be aggressive and build both the precedence and the clarity of enforcement.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 06/21/2018 9:07 PM
If your association has money, the consistency is important and you have a clear audit trail, be aggressive and build both the precedence and the clarity of enforcement.

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