Cracking down on dead-beats who don't pay dues

Unless your “management team” is filled with attorneys or you have some AZ case law to back up your position; I would seriously suggest you run your idea past the HOA attorney before you get out the pliers.

Glen & Robert,

I know of no state law prohibiting this type action and I do know there are many condo assn's that do this. On the other hand, if I were on the BOD, I would certainly obtain an official interpretation from an HOA attorney before proceeding to crimp the water lines. Nothing like being absolutely sure b/4 proceeding with something like this.

I have looked at these sections of ARS laws and see nothing specific referring to the subject in question (crimping the water lines). I'm also confused about the problem with my post (regarding your comment about it being an open web site). I never mentioned anything about any individual, nor would I ever do such a thing.

I am merely asking if anyone has ever looked into this particular avenue of dealing with the deadbeats, if they actually took this specific action, and how it shook out in the end. I know that the water company does this to individual homeowners when they fail to pay their bill, so it does not seem so extreme a measure, and though we're certainly not ready to jump right out and take this action, we were advised by a management company (not the one for the HOA in question, but a company that manages another of my condos), that this is indeed legal. At least that's what the management rep told the board of my other association. And of course we would look for more opinions before acting on something like this. That's partly why I'm trying to get some direction on this board.

Having said all of this, that does not make me some sort of evil person who wants to do harm to someone for some sort of sadistic pleasure. The fact is, most everyone is struggling in these economic times. Yet we all have seen instances in condo associations of people who will refuse to pay their dues (in essence requiring their fellow condo owners to support them), when they may be renting their places, or we see them purchasing new cars, taking expensive vacations, or perhaps even buying more property. I don't think it is hard to see why many HOA's are getting tougher and are trying to think of creative (but legal) ideas to stem the swelling of the ranks of those not doing their share. It's in no one's interest to have a property go into bankruptcy, thereby devaluing it further.....If we can at least get payment from those who can manage to afford it, but who would rather not, we're getting somewhere.

In any case, the caution you are advising is well taken. It may cost more to get more opinions on it and implement it than it is worth! Any other ideas? Thanks, I know you are trying to help.

Mary and Glen,

--- Glen, I know you're talking about Ohio vs. AZ, but I was curious by what you meant by "commercial condo". Ours is a 36 unit condo community (two three story buildings, a conversion from apartments in the heydey of AZ conversions). Do you mean commercial condo office buildings?

---Mary, thanks for the info. We are sitting at just under 50% paying dues and that is why I'm coming unglued and trying to think outside the box. I think this and other web sites on this topic will be seeing more people in HOA's trying to research these avenues.

Barbara,
I just read your latest posting and you have some thing like half paying and half don't. You can't do all this yourself so really I would not want to burden you with all this stuff I asked. Knowing this figures , your picture in my mind changes completely. You have got more than you need on your plate and I'm think more along the lines of trying to gett a local representative to step in somehow and try and save your investment. You can't operate long the way you are, you put yourself at two much risk. Have you giving any consideration to looking to the county or city for legal help. How about the papers or the TV. I can't see any of the properties selling and most likely foreclosures will be next if not there already. I am really hesitant now to suggest anything to you, maybe more background on your association would help. Hang in there and protect you and yours the best you can. You keep posting here and lets see what they have to say about this in view of this 50% default issue.

That or condos that have some type of commercial entity like a restaurant occupying part of the building. Now it wouldn't be allowed in our community but I have seen hi rise condos where the first floor was commercial.

Robert,

Thanks for your help. I had wondered about self-management, just to avoid all of the administrative costs, and things like overpaying for services. I just squawked about having paid $125 a month ago to fix the lock on a pedestrian gate that was not fixed at all for weeks after the so called fix, and then noticed that that same company was paid $125 3 times in December to fix that same gate.

No owner's eyeballs have scanned these financials for this place in years. Also, we're paying close to $600 per month to maintain the pool which is a postage stamp play pool (4 feet deep at deepest) and I was paying well under $200 or so per month for basic weekly maintenance on a diving pool of equal or greater size in my own backyard just a few years ago. I know it's more for a multifamily type of pool, but that much more? There are many other expenses I am now questioning.

Is that doable - self-management? How dangerous is the legal part of doing that? We probably could get 9 or 10 people together. It's a bit scary, though. I think we'll do it, succeed and then make a hilarious movie about it. Any suggestions for names?...ok, I know, don't get carried away....just get the roof fixed. Gotta keep a sense of humor though.

Mary,

Glen advised to look into attorneys who would tack their fees onto the delinquent homeowner's fees sort of like a Pro-bono? Do you know of any good attorneys in Phoenix who operate that way. Legal fees are crippling us.

Thanks.

The title of the thread raises a question for me. Is a person deemed a 'dead-beat' solely because they don't pay their dues? While everyone is responsible to pay their dues, since the HOA still has to pay its bills, I'm not sure everyone who doesn't pay their bill is a 'dead-beat'. While someone who chooses not to pay their obligations is certainly a deadbeat imo, there can be circumstances beyond the persons control, that prevent them from paying.

The "poor" don't have those things, people claiming they are poor may have those things. Just as not everyone is a dead-beat if they don't pay their dues. It is frustrating yes, and we can feel sympathy, and it doesn't change that everyone needs to meet their obligations but not everyone is able. When they get to that point they need to take action. The thread title just raised the question of whether you were only asking about cracking down on a segment of those who don't pay their dues (dead-beats) or everyone who doesn't pay their dues.

I would say a Dead beat is a person who has FREELY CHOSEN not to pay. Not everyone is trying to avoid their responsibilities so if the question is about cracking down on dead-beats who don't pay that is one thing, but then what are you going to do about those that aren't dead beats but don't pay. Selective enforcement?

Or is the question about cracking down on people who don't pay dues, regardless of the motivation?

Well, you can't do selective enforcement, so I look at it as those who DON'T pay, rather than CAN'T or WON'T pay. The fact that some cannot pay does not mean that the ones who MUST pay for them are capable of carrying their burden either. The idea that the paying homeowners should allow some not to pay because they have hardship assumes that the ones who are able to pay are flush with cash and can easily pay all the other's shares as well,or that somehow it is socially just (like communism) that they pay for all those who can't and/or won't. I think there is a distinction between those who CAN'T vs. those who WON'T in the way we judge their character only.

In other words, they basically must be treated the same way. That means that if you must take action that would ultimately cause foreclosure on someone who can't pay, it will probably just put them out of their pain and suffering to get rid of the cumbersome responsibility anyway. They may truly belong in a Section 8 type of rental situation until they get back on their feet. We pay taxes (and how) to take care of these folks in other ways.

In my HOA, just under half are paying dues. We have to replace our roofs, and we don't even have that in the reserves. We are looking at Special Assessments. I'd rather hasten someone out of the community, so a capable investor/buyer can get a crazy bargain, but who will pay their HOA dues. Otherwise, the ones who can't and won't pay will continue to charge the association $5000 when they have to replace their sheetrock due to the soaking from the Monsoon. (Last bad rain cost us many thousands of dollars fixing the units of those who DON'T pay). Not one single paying resident needed any repairs.

If the association were healthy, we might be able to carry one or two or even three or four residents who are in financial crisis. But, to say those capable should be willing to take another job or spend life savings carrying the less fotunate, can you spell Taxed Enough Already as in TEA PARTY? Socialism/Communism never really works because the ones who are doing the work for the rest eventually tire of the yoke and either adopt the "If you can't beat 'em join 'em" attitude, or do work under the table to circumvent the use and abuse of the system.

Actually Sam the court in FL ruled and its a no, no to shut off water as it is in Ohio, in VA however I believe it is legal. It all depends on the jurisdiction.

http://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/2009/09/articles/assessmentscommon-expenses/court-rules-hoa-cannot-turn-off-water/

Barbara,
I don't thing all this rhetoric means you are not looking at the problem right. You all have to decide this, you know that. Maybe you have gotten some help here, I hope so. It is a tough, tough problem and for what it's worth, maybe it will start getting better. Just keep it in front of you and get support of your Board, keep legal and work. Will all that work, I don't know, but it's the best chance you have and if it were not for good people trying to help other people the world would be a sad place.

You will get through this, you are not dumb and you are wearing a white hat. Hang in there and keep digging, something will turn up.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel picked on here. On the contrary, this is the most help and hope I have had in the battle to get our little struggling community back on life support. I couldn't believe such a helpful resource was out there and I didn't even know about it. Thanks to each and every one of you who has supported me with knowledge, considerations, and information from your obvious wealth of experience! It's never fun arguing with those who would have me spend my retirement picking up for the deadbeats, but they are certainly in the minority on this thread. There will always be a few. They are certainly entitled to their opinion.

I just got word that although our management company is all for the crimping of the lines, we are not able to do so because we are not individually metered. Our manager said that we might want to consider doing the conversion down the road so that we would have more options with the water bill. We may be able to lower the dues eventually and ask people to pay for their own water. Then when people go past some delinquency threshold, the crimping option will be available.
Anyone have any idea how hard (expensive) that transition would be for a 2 bldg. 36 unit type of property?

I don't think anyone here suggested you support dead-beats.