CharlesT5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2
Posts: 2
Posted:
DOES THE BOD HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIMIT RENTAL UNITS IN COMMUNITY OF ONLY 53 UNITS,AT THE PRESENT TIME MY COUNT IS APPROX.26-27.
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LIMIT RENTERS
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MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
It depends.
Do your governing documents allow it?
That's probably the first place you need to be looking for your answer, in your deed restrictions, bylaws, etc.
Do your governing documents allow it?
That's probably the first place you need to be looking for your answer, in your deed restrictions, bylaws, etc.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Charles,
Are you a condominium or single family homes.
If you are a condo project, there is a limit on how many homes may be rented in order for a buyer to qualify for FHA loans. This might be the reason why the board is trying to minimize the number of rental units and it's just not being explained properly. Since a lot of home loans are of the FHA type, the failure of a community to qualify for FHA loans can drastically reduce the pool of buyers.
Tim
Are you a condominium or single family homes.
If you are a condo project, there is a limit on how many homes may be rented in order for a buyer to qualify for FHA loans. This might be the reason why the board is trying to minimize the number of rental units and it's just not being explained properly. Since a lot of home loans are of the FHA type, the failure of a community to qualify for FHA loans can drastically reduce the pool of buyers.
Tim
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 04/10/2010 8:49 PM
Charles,
Are you a condominium or single family homes.
If you are a condo project, there is a limit on how many homes may be rented in order for a buyer to qualify for FHA loans. This might be the reason why the board is trying to minimize the number of rental units and it's just not being explained properly. Since a lot of home loans are of the FHA type, the failure of a community to qualify for FHA loans can drastically reduce the pool of buyers.
Tim
Charles,
Are you a condominium or single family homes.
If you are a condo project, there is a limit on how many homes may be rented in order for a buyer to qualify for FHA loans. This might be the reason why the board is trying to minimize the number of rental units and it's just not being explained properly. Since a lot of home loans are of the FHA type, the failure of a community to qualify for FHA loans can drastically reduce the pool of buyers.
Tim
All,
Please disregard my last post. I believe that I misunderstood what I read in the new rules.
Tim
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
CharlesT5,
Top of my head answer. Yes, the association can limit rentals. State if you are condo or HOA. Look through some of the information and search feature on this site. Again, condo or HOA.
Considering the # of resorts in NC there is no doubt that the state has some guidelines about your question. Take a little drive and check out some other associations similar to yours and see what they do.
Charles, you would not ask this question unless you have some interest in your association restricting rentals. There are a lot of conditions about what is allowed as far as rental controls are concerned, but the answer to your question is: "Yes"
Top of my head answer. Yes, the association can limit rentals. State if you are condo or HOA. Look through some of the information and search feature on this site. Again, condo or HOA.
Considering the # of resorts in NC there is no doubt that the state has some guidelines about your question. Take a little drive and check out some other associations similar to yours and see what they do.
Charles, you would not ask this question unless you have some interest in your association restricting rentals. There are a lot of conditions about what is allowed as far as rental controls are concerned, but the answer to your question is: "Yes"
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Sure, they have the right to limit rentals, but it usually doesn't hold up in court. HOA's do tons of stuff that wont hold up in court.
I'm sure other people who work at HOA's, which is most of the people on this forum will kill me for saying this but......... If you really want to rent it, call their bluff and rent it. Its an un-reasonable restriction and most courts agree. Other tips: Rent it to a protected class, like a latino. Claim financial hardship. The HOA will probably not want to touch it.
I'm sure other people who work at HOA's, which is most of the people on this forum will kill me for saying this but......... If you really want to rent it, call their bluff and rent it. Its an un-reasonable restriction and most courts agree. Other tips: Rent it to a protected class, like a latino. Claim financial hardship. The HOA will probably not want to touch it.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Steve,
Well, Thanks for that ummm.... great advice.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Steve,
This also bothers me. I''m not sure what it means by I never imagined most of the people on this forum work at HOA's. Most of the people on this forum come and go all the time.
I also can be pretty sure that most of the people that post here regular don't consider this is a "us against them" as maybe you suggested, I quote:"If you really want to rent it, call their bluff and rent it."
Who is "their"?
And if you are right, your right to rent can't be restricted, why would you have to find a protected class, like a Latino, or claim financial hardship, when it is not necessary.
I don't know Steve...........I just can't support this kind of logic.
But, what do I know, just my opinion.
This also bothers me. I''m not sure what it means by I never imagined most of the people on this forum work at HOA's. Most of the people on this forum come and go all the time.
I also can be pretty sure that most of the people that post here regular don't consider this is a "us against them" as maybe you suggested, I quote:"If you really want to rent it, call their bluff and rent it."
Who is "their"?
And if you are right, your right to rent can't be restricted, why would you have to find a protected class, like a Latino, or claim financial hardship, when it is not necessary.
I don't know Steve...........I just can't support this kind of logic.
But, what do I know, just my opinion.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Steve,
Correct first sentence of my Post.
I am not sure what you mean by stating that most people on this forum work at HOA's. Most people on this forum come and go all the time.
Sorry for the slip.
Correct first sentence of my Post.
I am not sure what you mean by stating that most people on this forum work at HOA's. Most people on this forum come and go all the time.
Sorry for the slip.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Steve,
Do you have statistical evidence to prove your opinion that most courts would rule against rental restrictions? There are some CCRs which explicitly state no rentals. And, are latinos a "protected class"??? Seems to me only allowing rentals to latinos would be discrimination -- discrimination against any other class of people. Last time I checked it's against the law to discriminate against any class of people.
Frankly, suggesting a member call the BOD's bluff and just violate a restriction is the worst piece of advice anyone could give!!
Do you have statistical evidence to prove your opinion that most courts would rule against rental restrictions? There are some CCRs which explicitly state no rentals. And, are latinos a "protected class"??? Seems to me only allowing rentals to latinos would be discrimination -- discrimination against any other class of people. Last time I checked it's against the law to discriminate against any class of people.
Frankly, suggesting a member call the BOD's bluff and just violate a restriction is the worst piece of advice anyone could give!!
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
I pretty much expected this response from people associated with an association.
"Do you have statistical evidence?" If you would like hard evidence, I charge $100 hour for research. I don't work for free. (wink) I've read many case laws on this subject a while back. (wink) Restrictions don't mean squat if its not legally enforceable. It really doesn't matter what is in the restrictions, a judge can rule it unreasonable, and they do regularly.
Most people who visit this forum have some kind of involvement with running or participating in an HOA, so the advice is skewed toward the point of view of people on the management end of the HOA and not so much the person living in the HOA.
Take my advice or don't take it, I'm just offering a few tips if you really want to rent it.
"Do you have statistical evidence?" If you would like hard evidence, I charge $100 hour for research. I don't work for free. (wink) I've read many case laws on this subject a while back. (wink) Restrictions don't mean squat if its not legally enforceable. It really doesn't matter what is in the restrictions, a judge can rule it unreasonable, and they do regularly.
Most people who visit this forum have some kind of involvement with running or participating in an HOA, so the advice is skewed toward the point of view of people on the management end of the HOA and not so much the person living in the HOA.
Take my advice or don't take it, I'm just offering a few tips if you really want to rent it.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 04/12/2010 8:26 AM
I pretty much expected this response from people associated with an association.
I pretty much expected this response from people associated with an association.
Of course you did!
That's exactly why you phrased it the way you did!
But your advise is still inapproriate, so whatever.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Steven,
Judging from your comments you have never been on a BOD. I've been on both sides of the fence so I probably have much more experience and insight than you do. ;-)(that's a wink!)
BTW, and FYI, the reason most people on this form have "some kind of involvement with running" an HOA is because this forum is designed for board members even though we do tolerate the lowly member. ;-) , ;-) (a double wink!)
Judging from your comments you have never been on a BOD. I've been on both sides of the fence so I probably have much more experience and insight than you do. ;-)(that's a wink!)
BTW, and FYI, the reason most people on this form have "some kind of involvement with running" an HOA is because this forum is designed for board members even though we do tolerate the lowly member. ;-) , ;-) (a double wink!)
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1
Judging from your comments you have never been on a BOD. I've been on both sides of the fence so I probably have much more experience and insight than you do
Judging from your comments you have never been on a BOD. I've been on both sides of the fence so I probably have much more experience and insight than you do
Au contraire, mon frère. I've served on BODs and elected positions of different condos and HOAs, this is why I know all the dirty little secrets and tricks people do.
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1
even though we do tolerate the lowly member
even though we do tolerate the lowly member
Looks like someone has been on the association side a little too long. When you start thinking like that its probably time for you to move on. (wink)
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Steve,
All I can say is that I've developed a twitch from all the winking! LOL
Seriously, methinks you've been on the wrong BODs. There are good boards and there are bad boards; sounds like you've found a few bad ones.
All I can say is that I've developed a twitch from all the winking! LOL
Seriously, methinks you've been on the wrong BODs. There are good boards and there are bad boards; sounds like you've found a few bad ones.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I dunno. Sounds to me like he's the type to get on boards to dismantle them or the HOAs.
"Dirty secrets" indeed. You know, those pesky secrets that are in the controlling documents. . . that everyone has. . . that sort of makes them not so secret anymore. . . .
wink wink
It's also clear he has trouble recognizing sarcasm, unless it's his own.
Oh well.
"Dirty secrets" indeed. You know, those pesky secrets that are in the controlling documents. . . that everyone has. . . that sort of makes them not so secret anymore. . . .
wink wink
It's also clear he has trouble recognizing sarcasm, unless it's his own.
Oh well.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Steve,
Well, I am not on the Board and I have posted here for several years. To label Mary as some kind of ProBoarder (sic) is just not accurate and the same can be said of many it not all the regular Board members posting here. They are speaking from a sincere wish to make association life better....that's all.
We all have or biases, you do also, but we can live with that, we hope you can. But, please, Mary and the rest are not interested in promoting any kind of personal agendas. Lord knows we have had our snits, but was never over intent, it has always been interpretation. These folks have a decent and valuable reputation earned from long hours of concern for others, we would like to keep it that way.........help out a little.
Well, I am not on the Board and I have posted here for several years. To label Mary as some kind of ProBoarder (sic) is just not accurate and the same can be said of many it not all the regular Board members posting here. They are speaking from a sincere wish to make association life better....that's all.
We all have or biases, you do also, but we can live with that, we hope you can. But, please, Mary and the rest are not interested in promoting any kind of personal agendas. Lord knows we have had our snits, but was never over intent, it has always been interpretation. These folks have a decent and valuable reputation earned from long hours of concern for others, we would like to keep it that way.........help out a little.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 04/13/2010 8:29 AM
Lord knows we have had our snits, but was never over intent, it has always been interpretation.
Lord knows we have had our snits, but was never over intent, it has always been interpretation.
Excellent assessment.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
What was the topic of the original post? I forgot....... Hehe
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Steve,
I agree, we do lose sight of the question. I don't know what to do about it, or if it is such a bad thing. Glad to see you are cutting us a little slack.
I agree, we do lose sight of the question. I don't know what to do about it, or if it is such a bad thing. Glad to see you are cutting us a little slack.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Yep, Robert has a knack for hitting the nail on the head.
And, to answer Steve's question; it was about restricting rentals. I guess I inadvertently steered the thread off topic when I asked Steve if he had documentation to prove his assertion that courts will rule against restricting rentals. Since he didn't say this was only his opinion (IMO) I stupidly thought he was stating a fact and was curious to know the source.
And, to answer Steve's question; it was about restricting rentals. I guess I inadvertently steered the thread off topic when I asked Steve if he had documentation to prove his assertion that courts will rule against restricting rentals. Since he didn't say this was only his opinion (IMO) I stupidly thought he was stating a fact and was curious to know the source.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Since he didn't say this was only his opinion
Nice try, but I wont be guilted into working for you for free.
JoanneW2 (California)
Posts: 37
Posts: 37
Posted:
I use this forum to gain insight from time to time and this is the most obnoxious, ego driven thread I have read in a long time with still no answers. With that said here are my comments......
Somewhere along the line someone mentioned FHA limiting rentals. For goodness sake, in today's economic enviroment if you can't get a loan --BOD member or owner-- then what good is your investment if you can't sell it. If a PM is giving advice otherwise well they don't get the gist of the concern. Go to your documents, look it up and put it on the agenda for a vote. We did just that in our small complex and applied to FHA approval also.
Somewhere along the line someone mentioned FHA limiting rentals. For goodness sake, in today's economic enviroment if you can't get a loan --BOD member or owner-- then what good is your investment if you can't sell it. If a PM is giving advice otherwise well they don't get the gist of the concern. Go to your documents, look it up and put it on the agenda for a vote. We did just that in our small complex and applied to FHA approval also.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Joanne,
This thread mirrors the new restrictions and requirements of the FHA Laws recently put in effect. I just read an article that said the New Law also require a Reserve Program be in effect before they will approve any loan. I read somewhere else that approval to be placed on the approved list will be individually considered, another that said it will depend on the application of the Mortgage lender.
Maybe you would have some idea about how demanding the application to get approval is and does it apply to individual property or condo or HOA. I have seen no definitive information if this rule is being applied across the Board in all states.
Also a lot of documents have no guidelines ref this, nearly all I suspect. If a PM posts anything here or anyone else that don't get the gist, what would you like for this site to do about it. You say you looked it up in your documents and put it on the agenda for a vote. It would certainly be a help if you would explain how you did this..........
Also, when you get the answer from anyone that can solve the question you asked about selling your investment, lots of people would put aside their ego driven concerns for an answer to that question.
It appears the demands of the application are going to exclude way too many condo (at least) that have had no restrictions placed on their units as far as rentals are concerned and no covenants reference. What does a condo do if they have no authority to change the documents to comply with the new legislation? How do they select the units that can't rent anymore in order to bring the complex into conformity. There is no authority for that in the covenants. Are the Condo Regimes required to reach conformity? That is a complicated question also. If one owner demands that the condo reach conformity because if they don't his free market for selling his condo is lost, can he hold up the entire association?
This thread mirrors the new restrictions and requirements of the FHA Laws recently put in effect. I just read an article that said the New Law also require a Reserve Program be in effect before they will approve any loan. I read somewhere else that approval to be placed on the approved list will be individually considered, another that said it will depend on the application of the Mortgage lender.
Maybe you would have some idea about how demanding the application to get approval is and does it apply to individual property or condo or HOA. I have seen no definitive information if this rule is being applied across the Board in all states.
Also a lot of documents have no guidelines ref this, nearly all I suspect. If a PM posts anything here or anyone else that don't get the gist, what would you like for this site to do about it. You say you looked it up in your documents and put it on the agenda for a vote. It would certainly be a help if you would explain how you did this..........
Also, when you get the answer from anyone that can solve the question you asked about selling your investment, lots of people would put aside their ego driven concerns for an answer to that question.
It appears the demands of the application are going to exclude way too many condo (at least) that have had no restrictions placed on their units as far as rentals are concerned and no covenants reference. What does a condo do if they have no authority to change the documents to comply with the new legislation? How do they select the units that can't rent anymore in order to bring the complex into conformity. There is no authority for that in the covenants. Are the Condo Regimes required to reach conformity? That is a complicated question also. If one owner demands that the condo reach conformity because if they don't his free market for selling his condo is lost, can he hold up the entire association?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Joanne,
What does the OP's question about limiting rentals have to do with getting an FHA loan?
What does the OP's question about limiting rentals have to do with getting an FHA loan?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary,
Check Tim Post this thread.
Third answer to OP.
It is a complicated process and just not understood or applied uniformly. But his explanation is pretty much dead on. The question of HOA's is also just that at this point.....a question.
Right now, if the Condo Association has allowed unrestricted rentals and now the result is an association that can't qualify for FHA or any other mortgages because of too many rental units, is there a question that the association can be liable for allowing this too happen and thus restricts the free market process. Someone is going to test this one day and it may turn out that ALL condos have to have rental limitations....damned if I know.
Check Tim Post this thread.
Third answer to OP.
It is a complicated process and just not understood or applied uniformly. But his explanation is pretty much dead on. The question of HOA's is also just that at this point.....a question.
Right now, if the Condo Association has allowed unrestricted rentals and now the result is an association that can't qualify for FHA or any other mortgages because of too many rental units, is there a question that the association can be liable for allowing this too happen and thus restricts the free market process. Someone is going to test this one day and it may turn out that ALL condos have to have rental limitations....damned if I know.
JoanneW2 (California)
Posts: 37
Posts: 37
Posted:
Hi Robert,
Briefly, we want to get FHA approval in our small community. We put it to a vote and all aggreed. So, then we had to limit the rentals allowed--under 50%. More realtors will show the property since they can find a buyer who can put only 10% down. We want a buyer in the future to be able to obtain financing other than a conventional loan.
Yes, you must have a reserve study completed as well as a list of requirements one can find on the FHA website. If a complex is large then it is best to use an attorney who speializes in this task because an "opinion of counsel" is usually needed attesting to many things, one of which is that that the CC&R etc. are in good standing.
Because there is such an influx of applications at this time, the waiting period to receive a reply is two to three months.
The other loan you are refering to is called a "spot approval" which I believe went away a short time ago.
Hope this helps.
Briefly, we want to get FHA approval in our small community. We put it to a vote and all aggreed. So, then we had to limit the rentals allowed--under 50%. More realtors will show the property since they can find a buyer who can put only 10% down. We want a buyer in the future to be able to obtain financing other than a conventional loan.
Yes, you must have a reserve study completed as well as a list of requirements one can find on the FHA website. If a complex is large then it is best to use an attorney who speializes in this task because an "opinion of counsel" is usually needed attesting to many things, one of which is that that the CC&R etc. are in good standing.
Because there is such an influx of applications at this time, the waiting period to receive a reply is two to three months.
The other loan you are refering to is called a "spot approval" which I believe went away a short time ago.
Hope this helps.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,
I am aware of the FHA requirement and I did see Tim's message. However, the OP never said whether rentals are being limited for that reason. Some assn's just don't want rentals. Actually the OP didn't even say he lives in a condo assn. He did mention "units" which in most cases applies to condos; however single family homes are often referred to as units also.
I am aware of the FHA requirement and I did see Tim's message. However, the OP never said whether rentals are being limited for that reason. Some assn's just don't want rentals. Actually the OP didn't even say he lives in a condo assn. He did mention "units" which in most cases applies to condos; however single family homes are often referred to as units also.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary,
Ref my post, this thread:
04/11/2010 11:27 AM Quote Reply
CharlesT5,
Top of my head answer. Yes, the association can limit rentals. State if you are condo or HOA. Look through some of the information and search feature on this site. Again, condo or HOA.
Considering the # of resorts in NC there is no doubt that the state has some guidelines about your question. Take a little drive and check out some other associations similar to yours and see what they do.
Charles, you would not ask this question unless you have some interest in your association restricting rentals. There are a lot of conditions about what is allowed as far as rental controls are concerned, but the answer to your question is: "Yes"
Ref my post, this thread:
04/11/2010 11:27 AM Quote Reply
CharlesT5,
Top of my head answer. Yes, the association can limit rentals. State if you are condo or HOA. Look through some of the information and search feature on this site. Again, condo or HOA.
Considering the # of resorts in NC there is no doubt that the state has some guidelines about your question. Take a little drive and check out some other associations similar to yours and see what they do.
Charles, you would not ask this question unless you have some interest in your association restricting rentals. There are a lot of conditions about what is allowed as far as rental controls are concerned, but the answer to your question is: "Yes"
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Joanne,
Help us out here and tell us how many units in your community and if you are HOA or Condo.
Your: More realtors will show the property since they can find a buyer who can put only 10% down. We want a buyer in the future to be able to obtain financing other than a conventional loan.
What does this mean?
Why is the requirements for a large HOA (or are we talking CONDO)any different, as far as hiring a lawyer is concerned.
It would be very helpful if you would keep us up to date on your process, as you move along. Did you have to re-adjust your %rental units to conform to the 50 % limitation?
This is a serious issue and of course another question is how are the different states going to react.........if at all.
Help us out here and tell us how many units in your community and if you are HOA or Condo.
Your: More realtors will show the property since they can find a buyer who can put only 10% down. We want a buyer in the future to be able to obtain financing other than a conventional loan.
What does this mean?
Why is the requirements for a large HOA (or are we talking CONDO)any different, as far as hiring a lawyer is concerned.
It would be very helpful if you would keep us up to date on your process, as you move along. Did you have to re-adjust your %rental units to conform to the 50 % limitation?
This is a serious issue and of course another question is how are the different states going to react.........if at all.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,
FYI, the FHA loan requirements only apply to condos; there are no such requirements for single family homes. This is why I stated the OP has not mentioned whether or not his is a condo assn. If not, then all of Joanne's comments -- and the comments of anyone else referring to FHA loans -- are meaningless.
FYI, the FHA loan requirements only apply to condos; there are no such requirements for single family homes. This is why I stated the OP has not mentioned whether or not his is a condo assn. If not, then all of Joanne's comments -- and the comments of anyone else referring to FHA loans -- are meaningless.
JoanneW2 (California)
Posts: 37
Posts: 37
Posted:
Robert,
Hi. We have nine units. We plan on amending our documents later this year. Of course there is some resistance but in the meantime, we have applied to the FHA because currently only 3 or 9 are rented and within their compliance guidelines. In certain price points, under $400K, for example many first time borrowers do not have 20% to put down so why should the realtor show the property if they cannot qualify. FHA loans provide the only loans for people in this situation, hence, my comment that the property appeals to more buyers in the long run. Wr think it makes the property more valuable and so does the community in general thank goodness.
Let me look through the threads again because I thought I saw Mary answer related questions and provide links to the FHA websites and the page of their requirements.
Hi. We have nine units. We plan on amending our documents later this year. Of course there is some resistance but in the meantime, we have applied to the FHA because currently only 3 or 9 are rented and within their compliance guidelines. In certain price points, under $400K, for example many first time borrowers do not have 20% to put down so why should the realtor show the property if they cannot qualify. FHA loans provide the only loans for people in this situation, hence, my comment that the property appeals to more buyers in the long run. Wr think it makes the property more valuable and so does the community in general thank goodness.
Let me look through the threads again because I thought I saw Mary answer related questions and provide links to the FHA websites and the page of their requirements.
JoanneW2 (California)
Posts: 37
Posts: 37
Posted:
True!
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