Illegal Wood Flooring

Started by SteveW12 • 14 replies • 4039 views

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SteveW12 (California)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Hi all--

I live in a small association of 8 townhomes and have a neighbor who installed wood floors in their 2nd story bedrooms, (immediately adjacent to mine). The CC&R's don't allow, because of noise transmission, as I'm experiencing now. I am on the Board, and in a meeting with this homeowner on a separate matter (when he acknowledged he'd installed the wood floors), another Board member at the meeting also mentioned he'd installed wood floors in his unit. When I notified them both that that was in fact not allowed by the CC&R's, the other Board member suggested I "drop it", as it could lead to a mess....which it is.
I don't want to let it go, as the noise increase is noticible and with different owners, could be considerable (the current owners for the most part do not wear their shoes around their unit, so for that I'm thankful).
I didn't want to necessarily want to take action through the Board, as this could be perceived as an abuse of power or a conflict of interest. (The other Board member and my neighbor are good friends, and won't want to take action against my neighbor). So I'm thinking taking a legal remedy might be the best course, but how would this work. Any suggestions?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

You (personally) could sue them in court to remedy the situation.

Civil Code §1354. Enforcement Rights, Attorneys' Fees.

(a) The covenants and restrictions in the declaration shall be enforceable equitable servitudes, unless unreasonable, and shall inure to the benefit of and bind all owners of separate interests in the development. Unless the declaration states otherwise, these servitudes may be enforced by any owner of a separate interest or by the association, or by both.

(b) A governing document other than the declaration may be enforced by the association against an owner of a separate interest or by an owner of a separate interest against the association.

(c) In an action to enforce the governing documents, the prevailing party shall be awarded reasonable attorney's fees and costs.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveW12 on 04/10/2010 11:42 AM

I didn't want to necessarily want to take action through the Board, as this could be perceived as an abuse of power or a conflict of interest.

I'm trying to figure out how a board member, once aware of two violations, could ever be perceived of abusing "power" or having a conflict of interest?

Please explain this to me, as I tend to believe a board member being aware of another board member's violation and "dropping it" constitutes not only misuse of power but selective enforcement as well.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Steve,

Like Michele, I'm having trouble understanding your logic. As a board member you (and your fellow non-compliant board member) have been entrusted by the members to uphold the CCRs. It's also apparent to me you do not understand the meaning of "conflict of interest". It certainly does not have anything to do with taking action against a fellow board member for violating the CCRs. You are not beholden to a board member -- nor any member of the assn for that matter -- to look the other way when they choose to violate the CCRs. In fact this should be cause for your removal from your position on the board. Sorry, to sound so harsh, but I cannot have any understanding for a board member who chooses not to uphold his fiduciary duty to the assn.

JerrellC (Florida)
Posts: 83

Posted:

Stevew12 Now I've heard it all its getting more and more ridiculous each time I get on this website. Complaining about wood floors. What possible problem could wood floors be? I just don't believe there's any noise from them. I agree with the board member that has them. Knock it off and forget it. I think that you need to ammend your covenants and get rid of this crazy rule. JerrellC

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JerrellC on 04/10/2010 4:10 PM
Stevew12 Now I've heard it all its getting more and more ridiculous each time I get on this website. Complaining about wood floors. What possible problem could wood floors be? I just don't believe there's any noise from them. I agree with the board member that has them. Knock it off and forget it. I think that you need to ammend your covenants and get rid of this crazy rule. JerrellC

If the covenants say "no wood flooring" then there is no wood flooring.

Too bad you (and anyone else) doesn't see a problem with it.

If enough members agree, then change the covenant.

Until then, enforce it.

Period.

(PS: Just not believing something doesn't make it so.)

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

JerrellC,

Wood floors DO transmit more noise than other surfaces such as carpet. If you happen to live below someone with a wood floor, especially one improperly installed you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the logic of bans on wood flooring in certain circumstances.

Plenty of info is available but here is just one,

"Many condominium association have a set of protective convents with even more stringent regulations than the Uniform or National and Local Building Codes. Make sure you are well aware of those details in writing when wanting to install wood floor products on the existing floor. These regulation are more often than not more strict in newer high rise apartment buildings.

Sound Control Materials:

Acoustical backed wood flooring

Sound Control Matting, loose laid under an NWFA recommended floating subfloor system

Sound deadening boards applied with an adhesive approved by the manufacturer

1/16" to 1/4" closed cell foam, loose laid under an NWFA recommended floating subfloor system

6mm or thicker acoustical cork material applied to the subfloor or underlayment with an adhesive approved by the manufacturer

NOTE: Always follow manufacturers instruction for this procedure and consult the manufacturer of the sound control material being used, such that the method of construction to meet minimum sound rating values of the project can be determined.

CAUTION: DO NOT use nails that will penetrate the sound material as the integrity of the sound control material can be jeopardized. If nails are used, the impact will travel the nail to the surface below, and will negate the effectiveness of the sound control system. Also the floor MUST NOT come in contact with walls, post or any other fixtures that may transmit noise to another part of the building or surface. "

http://www.installingwoodfloors.com/technical/sound_control.html

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Steve,
I would suggest you at least look the Board over here and see if this topic is addressed elsewhere. Look the Board over there is another posting submitted of 6 April that may be of help.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

I just don't believe there's any noise from them.

Its pretty simple science. Wood floors are hard and so are shoes, they make allot of noise if your the person living below. Carpets are soft, virtually no noise. I used to live in a place where people had hard wood floors above me, its very annoying. Especially when the woman wears high heels and walks on wood floor or has many people over. Trust me, its annoying.

Tons of condo's ban wood floors for this very reason.

JerrellC (Florida)
Posts: 83

Posted:

MicheleD, From what I've been told if wood floors are installed correctly there will not be any noise from walking on them. Again I say quit blowing your horn and forget it and let the people above you enjoy their floors in peace. JerrellC

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JerrellC on 04/13/2010 2:27 PM
MicheleD, From what I've been told if wood floors are installed correctly there will not be any noise from walking on them. Again I say quit blowing your horn and forget it and let the people above you enjoy their floors in peace. JerrellC

Guess you failed to read all the other posters who say it is a noisy feature.

And what "you've been told" is no doubt from people who make money off of either selling or installing wood floors.

Not, apparently, anyone who has lived below one!

SteveW12 (California)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Thanks, all, for the responses. I suspect that I will probably need to go the legal route, as I think it may be the only recourse that carries some weight, so thanks for the rundown on what's involved with that, Glen L. And understanding that it's not a real conflict of interest that I'm dealing with here, I guess it simply comes down to a messy awkward situation with resolving this, when one of your fellow Board members has made the same bad choice. It really does come down to feduciary responsibility and following the CC&R's, which everyone has in their possession, so it's not like we're asking people to play by a set of rules they've never seen. Granted, they're not the most enjoyable read in the world, but it never fails to surprise me when fellow owners get irritated when you refer to them and their response is "We're a small association and we all know each other and there's no reason to take the legal route by referring to that document." Like you're finding a reason to make a personal attack on people by referring to them. In the end, we're all entitled to some degree of peace and quiet, so when you have some people who believe you're whining when you complain about the noise from wood flooring, they obviously aren't living with the same situation I am. Or maybe my hearing's a bit better....

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

SteveW2,
You have to also consider the long term effects of how this problem is going to impact your association.
To that issue I think considerable effort should go into bringing in some professional opinions on possible alternative solutions. I would hope that the two units that have elected to violate the covenants would agree to front the cost. I also suspect they won't so the Board should get ready for this eventuality and hire their own consultant and possibly special assess the two violators, if proper.
I really think the peace and quiet of the neighborhood is also worthy of considerable thought, long term effects are very important. If it has come down to neighbor against neighbor that with eight owners, maybe this could be addressed at a "All hands" meeting. I am sure you all have thought of corrective measures but take another look with some different experts.

This is not a small issue and could easily result in long term unhappiness. It is also evident that communication was/is lacking among the owners. To some degree that is a Board function and I am wondering why you, Steve, did not question this when the original violation occurred and why you didn't stop the installation at the unit above you. With 8 owners it would appear everyone must have been aware this was going on. A judge may ask about this, and like it or not Steve, if you go legal, you/the Board could be made to demonstrate that a problem exists, in spite of it being a covenant violation.

I don't think your quandary is any easier because you only have eight owners, it may be harder, in fact.

SteveW12 (California)
Posts: 5

Posted:

You make some good points, Robert. Unfortunately, the installation occurred during the day, when I'm not here and I didn't hear anything going in. We're a townhome community, so the installation in their 2nd floor bedroom is immediately adjacent to my bedroom (their bed abuts the same wall mine does) and not above. And, in an email that we were exchanging on a different topic, the owner expressed a desire to put wood floors in his other unit in our other building (he married the woman in the unit next to me, where the problem is--it's probably sounding a little like Melrose Place by now). At this point I let him know that wood floors were not allowed. He responded that the unit next to him had them, as well (he saw them at an open house when that owner sold his unit). This is where it starts getting even a bit messier, since the new owners of that unit likely have now idea their unit is in violation. Regardless, I let him know that knowledge of another owner making the violation didn't make it legal. He didn't indicate that they had installed them in their unit, probably not wanting to let me know.
So, when anyone wears hard-soled in their bedroom, the clunking is literally a few feet from my head (assuming I'm in bed, at the time.) And, as I mentioned, my neighbors are not particularly noisy people. However, should they decide to rent out their unit or sell, that's where a potentialy bigger problem looms, if I don't address this now.
Your suggestion about hiring a sound-mitigating consultant shows some sense of trying to resolve the problem outside the court system. And your note about being able to convince a judge that there's a problem is a concern, too.

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

Quote:

JerrellC, The OP said in his first post, "The CC&R's don't allow, because of noise transmission, as I'm experiencing now."

If you maintain your assertion that correctly installed wood floors will not have "any" noise from walking on them (which from personal experience I know is not the case) then these would not be properly installed since it is the noise that caused the issue to arise. Sure the people above (although he said beside) should be able to enjoy their floors in peace, as should the OP be able to enjoy his neighbours illegally installed floors "in peace".

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