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BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Hi everyone,
I live in CA and I'm on the board for my HOA. Our current violation enforcement policy is:
1) First violation: letter sent citing violation
2) Second violation: letter sent to attend a hearing to discuss with the board, if not resolved at this time then a $50 fine is imposed and mailed out to homeowner
3) Continuing violation: letters sent to attend additional hearings to discuss with the board, if not resolved then a $75 fine is imposed
4) Repeat step 3) until violation is resolved

One of the board members wants to change things so that we fine in step 1). In other words he wants to be able to fine without giving the homeowner a courtesy letter or the chance to appear and discuss with the board. Needless to say I'm appalled by this, but there is nothing in the CC&Rs that seem to prohibit this and I'm concerned if other board members agree with him, in which case I'd have to resign from the board as I think that this seems to be completely illegal to me.

I was wondering what others thought about this, and if anyone is aware of any legal precedent or maybe something in the Davis-Stirling act that would make this kind of ruthless enforcement of rules and regulations illegal.

Thanks,
Bill Fleites
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Bill, we find from years of experience it is best to first send a courtesy notice advising of the restriction alledgedly being violated. Many homeowners do not read their governing documents and are not aware of the restrictions.
You are correct that a homeowner should not be fined without first being given a right to a Hearing.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Roger, Does your governing documents or any other resriction state that you must have a hearing before you receive the fine?

Apparently Bill's don't. Mine don't and my POA don't, but both allow for appeal, is your's written this way?
BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Yes, that's the problem. My CC&Rs do not specify this and leaves it up to the board to determine what the violation and fine procedure shall be. We'd had this procedure in place for over 20 years, but this board member wants to change it.

I just wanted to know if someone on the forum could state with certainty whether this is legal or not. From my point of view, if it is legal and my board approves it, my personal beliefs would not allow me to serve on a board that thinks this is a good way to treat your community. There's a fine line between enforcing rules and acting like a police state.

I've researched this quite a bit and every single HOA Rules and Regulations document that I've read online says that you cannot fine without first a courtesy letter, and secondly a hearing. Only after these two steps are taken can fees be assesed by the HOA. So far I've downloaded 20 such HOA documents.

On the Davis-Stirling website they even address this as follows.
https://www.davis-stirling.com/MainMenu/MainIndex/ParkingFines/tabid/1530/Default.aspx

QUESTION. Can the association fine an owner without a hearing for repeated parking in a fire lane? Our board has not had time to arrange for towing and wants to fine the owner.

ANSWER. Hearings are required before fines are levied. You can schedule hearings at your regular board meetings or for special meetings. If the person fails to appear, the board may impose penalties based on the evidence presented, i.e., testimony by the manager that the car was parked in the fire lane or a photo of the illegally parked car.

Another website that I use to educate myself on HOA issues listed below also states the same steps for enforcing rules and assessing fines.
http://www.hoaservices.com/fines.htm

Thanks to anyone who can respond and shed light on this for me,
Bill Fleites

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Bill, I was just going to recommend you research Stirling-Davis since you're in California.

In Kentucky we do not have to give a hearing at all. Ever.

But our policy is that we send a courtesy letter first.

In fact, the subject line includes the phrase: Courtesy Reminder.

However in the closing paragraph we remind the homeowner that the specific violation, if not correct, carries a fine, and the fine will be assessed from the date of the first letter if not corrected within XXX days of the date of the letter.

Since we have added that language (only added it last summer) we have only had to send out 3 second notices with the fine statement.

Weird.

Hope the pattern continues!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Bill, Like so many of this posts about rules and regulations we read them differently. You and Roger apparently read them to mean you can't fine them without a hearing. Many associations, mine included read they will receive written notice, maybe even via a ticket from security personal, that they will be fined x amount of $. to me............that is notification a fine will be assessed. Then some regulations or maybe on the fine notice, it is explained you are entitled to a hearing, just like the local and state police do. So if you decide not to go to the hearing (Appear in traffic court for Police authority), then the fine stands, if you appeal you can state your case. But the fine must be cleared, one way or the other.
So, what is legal. It is certainly legal to fine if you don't appeal the violation, don't you agree. So is your board attempting to circumvent the "fine"business, or to circumvent how the fine is levied? I take it your board, wants to take away the appeal part, that, in my state would be illegal, However, the board assesses fines for late assessment payments and I bet yours does also. The Board made be forced to deal with this and negotiate a settlement but they set the fine by the documents
BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
I think I found my answer, and it is that in CA according to the Davis-Stirling Act it is illegal to fine without the first two steps I mentioned. On their website the following webpage details out the "Dispute Resolution Flowchart" and there they show "Step 1 - Violation Notice", "Step 2 - Hearing", and then finally "Step 3 - Fines Levied".

http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainMenu/MainIndex/DisputeResolutionFlowchart/tabid/1237/Default.aspx
BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 04/02/2010 7:42 PM
Bill, Like so many of this posts about rules and regulations we read them differently. You and Roger apparently read them to mean you can't fine them without a hearing. Many associations, mine included read they will receive written notice, maybe even via a ticket from security personal, that they will be fined x amount of $. to me............that is notification a fine will be assessed. Then some regulations or maybe on the fine notice, it is explained you are entitled to a hearing, just like the local and state police do. So if you decide not to go to the hearing (Appear in traffic court for Police authority), then the fine stands, if you appeal you can state your case. But the fine must be cleared, one way or the other.
So, what is legal. It is certainly legal to fine if you don't appeal the violation, don't you agree. So is your board attempting to circumvent the "fine"business, or to circumvent how the fine is levied? I take it your board, wants to take away the appeal part, that, in my state would be illegal, However, the board assesses fines for late assessment payments and I bet yours does also. The Board made be forced to deal with this and negotiate a settlement but they set the fine by the documents

Yes, this individual just wants to skip the "Violation Notice" and "Hearing" steps and go directly to the "Asses Fine" step once a violation is discovered. Clearly, in CA according to the Davis-Sterling Act and their "Dispute Resolution Flowchart" this would be illegal.

Bill Fleites
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Bill check this out. (Bold by me)

Civil Code ยง1363. Management Authority; Parliamentary Procedure; Notice of Meetings; Records; Member Discipline.

(a) A common interest development shall be managed by an association that may be incorporated or unincorporated. The association may be referred to as a community association.

(b) An association, whether incorporated or unincorporated, shall prepare a budget pursuant to Section 1365 and disclose information, if requested, in accordance with Section 1368.

(c) Unless the governing documents provide otherwise, and regardless of whether the association is incorporated or unincorporated, the association may exercise the powers granted to a nonprofit mutual benefit corporation, as enumerated in Section 7140 of the Corporations Code, except that an unincorporated association may not adopt or use a corporate seal or issue membership certificates in accordance with Section 7313 of the Corporations Code.

The association, whether incorporated or unincorporated, may exercise the powers granted to an association by Section 383 of the Code of Civil Procedure and the powers granted to the association in this title.

(d) Meetings of the membership of the association shall be conducted in accordance with a recognized system of parliamentary procedure or any parliamentary procedures the association may adopt.

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, notice of meetings of the members shall specify those matters the board intends to present for action by the members, but, except as otherwise provided by law, any proper matter may be presented at the meeting for action.

(f) Members of the association shall have access to association records, including accounting books and records and membership lists, in accordance with Article 3 (commencing with Section 8330) of Chapter 13 of Part 3 of Division 2 of Title 1 of the Corporations Code. The members of the association shall have the same access to the operating rules of the association as they have to the accounting books and records of the association.

(g) If an association adopts or has adopted a policy imposing any monetary penalty, including any fee, on any association member for a violation of the governing documents or rules of the association, including any monetary penalty relating to the activities of a guest or invitee of a member, the board of directors shall adopt and distribute to each member, by personal delivery or first-class mail, a schedule of the monetary penalties that may be assessed for those violations, which shall be in accordance with authorization for member discipline contained in the governing documents. The board of directors shall not be required to distribute any additional schedules of monetary penalties unless there are changes from the schedule that was adopted and distributed to the members pursuant to this subdivision.

(h) When the board of directors is to meet to consider or impose discipline upon a member, the board shall notify the member in writing, by either personal delivery or first-class mail, at least 10 days prior to the meeting. The notification shall contain, at a minimum, the date, time, and place of the meeting, the nature of the alleged violation for which a member may be disciplined, and a statement that the member has a right to attend and may address the board at the meeting. The board of directors of the association shall meet in executive session if requested by the member being disciplined. If the board imposes discipline on a member, the board shall provide the member a written notification of the disciplinary action, by either personal delivery or first-class mail, within 15 days following the action. A disciplinary action shall not be effective against a member unless the board fulfills the requirements of this subdivision.


(i) Whenever two or more associations have consolidated any of their functions under a joint neighborhood association or similar organization, members of each participating association shall be (1) entitled to attend all meetings of the joint association other than executive sessions, (2) given reasonable opportunity for participation in those meetings, and (3) entitled to the same access to the joint association's records as they are to the participating association's records.

(j) Nothing in this section shall be construed to create, expand, or reduce the authority of the board of directors of an association to impose monetary penalties on an association member for a violation of the governing documents or rules of the association.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Glad to hear you are satisfied.

Does the violation notice contain the amount of fine and does it contain any penalties for not paying this fine'

I remember the last time I received a speeding ticket, some years ago and the fine was noted as $80.00. There was a number I could call if I wished to contest. I did and I recall clearly, I was appealing the $80.00 fine, not the notice. I think I got the Bum to knock $15.00 off the fine. I told the judge I didn't need to spend $80.00 to realize I had broken the law, $30.00 would have done the same thing, he thought that was worth $15.00.

Bill, the Board has to follow the documents, just like you did when you weren't a Board member. One of the reason for Boards is to kept the documents viable and applicable. I suspect the reason some of your Board wanting to change the documents is a good healthy sign, albeit not all proposed changes are accepted as proposed and this one looks like it will require an amendment to the documents, which normally means a vote of the membership. You sound like you are a pretty detailed person and try to know the facts before you ask any questions, this will serve you well as a Board Member. No matter how you cut it, Board memebers have to give and take much more than the membership, it can get difficult.
BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Hi Glen,
Thanks for looking into this.
Item (g) seems to be notice that when a board implements or changes a fine schedule it needs to be published to the membership. We've conformed to this.

Item (h) does speak to the having to the fact of a hearing before fines can be imposed.

Is there a webpage that has a downloadable verion of the Davis-Sterling Act ?

Thanks,
Bill Fleites
BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Robert,
Yes, I just want to do the right thing form my community. I understand this person's desire to fine for obvious and sometimes serious violations. But I emigrated to the US from a communist country where people have very few civil rights, specially if they do not agree with the goverment, and I'd hate to turn my community into that type of a place.

Bill Fleites
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Oh my Bill,
I am afraid you are in for a struggle. Maybe the first or second time you try to explain some of the Covenants and Retsrictions to some apathetic Homeowner, he will label you a "communist" or worse, probably "dictator".
Keep your sense of humor, you'll need it.
BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Too late, the board and I have already been called that. But it was funny when that same person came to use to resolve a problem he had with a neighbor, that second time we were no longer "commies" or "dictators" but the "voice of reason".
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillF5 on 04/02/2010 8:44 PM
Hi Glen,
Thanks for looking into this.
Item (g) seems to be notice that when a board implements or changes a fine schedule it needs to be published to the membership. We've conformed to this.

Item (h) does speak to the having to the fact of a hearing before fines can be imposed.

Is there a webpage that has a downloadable verion of the Davis-Sterling Act ?

Thanks,
Bill Fleites

Here are a few I found but I mainly use davis-stirling.com. They also have a weekly email newsletter which I find very informative; past issues are on their website.

http://www.internet-realty.com/Davis-Stirling.pdf

http://www.condoproperties.com/_docs/civilcode-SAMPLE.pdf

http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/DavisStirlingAct/DavisStirlingAct/tabid/791/Default.aspx


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 04/02/2010 9:58 PM
Posted By BillF5 on 04/02/2010 8:44 PM
Hi Glen,
Thanks for looking into this.
Item (g) seems to be notice that when a board implements or changes a fine schedule it needs to be published to the membership. We've conformed to this.

Item (h) does speak to the having to the fact of a hearing before fines can be imposed.

Is there a webpage that has a downloadable verion of the Davis-Sterling Act ?

Thanks,
Bill Fleites


Here are a few I found but I mainly use davis-stirling.com. They also have a weekly email newsletter which I find very informative; past issues are on their website.

http://www.internet-realty.com/Davis-Stirling.pdf

http://www.condoproperties.com/_docs/civilcode-SAMPLE.pdf

http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/DavisStirlingAct/DavisStirlingAct/tabid/791/Default.aspx


Thanks Glen, that's exaclty what I needed.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Bill,

For your late night reading from davis-stirling.com

Due Process
Penalties, such as fines and suspension of privileges, cannot be imposed against a member unless due process has been followed. This includes disciplinary action for repeat violations. "Due process" is procedural fairness in the board's decision-making process. The process must be fair and reasonable, and not arbitrary or capricious. Ironwood Owners Ass'n IX v. Solomon.

Elements of Due Process. The elements of due process include: (i) giving the accused notice of the alleged violation; (ii) providing a reasonable opportunity for the person to defend themselves; (iii) knowing the identity of the accuser; and (iv) giving the accused an opportunity to examine and refute the evidence. Applebaum v. Board of Directors (1980) 104 Cal.App.3d 648, 657; Carson v. Glass Bottle Blowers (1951) 37 Cal.2d 134, 144; Civil Code ยง1363(h); Civil Code ยง1363.05(b); Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(3).

When Violations Occur. Before imposing penalties, associations should do the following:
Notice of Procedures. The procedure for imposing penalties or suspending membership privileges must be in the governing documents. In the alternative, it must be annually sent to all members. Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(1).

Notice of Hearing. The person must be given written notice of the violation and hearing by personal delivery or first-class mail, at least 10 days prior to the meeting at which monetary penalties are imposed (unless the governing documents provide for a longer notice period). Civil Code ยง1363(h). For suspension of privileges, the notice must be at least 15 days prior to the hearing. Corp. Code ยง7341(d). The notice must be reasonably calculated to provide actual notice to the member. Corp. Code ยง7341(d). The notice must contain the following:

The date, time, and place of the hearing,
The nature of the alleged violation for which a member may be disciplined, and
A statement that the member has a right to attend the hearing and present evidence in his/her defense. Civil Code ยง1363(h). See sample notice.

Executive Session. Hearings should always be in executive session. Members have the right to submit their defense in writing rather than make an appearance before the board. Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(3).

Defense. The accused has the right to know the identity of his/her accuser and must have an opportunity to examine and refute the evidence. This may include questions during the hearing.
Decision. Unless the association's governing documents provide for a longer notice period, notice of the board's decision must be given by personal delivery or first-class mail within 15 days following the board's decision Civil Code ยง1363(h); Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(2).

BillF5 (Georgia)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/02/2010 11:30 PM
Bill,

For your late night reading from davis-stirling.com

Due Process
Penalties, such as fines and suspension of privileges, cannot be imposed against a member unless due process has been followed. This includes disciplinary action for repeat violations. "Due process" is procedural fairness in the board's decision-making process. The process must be fair and reasonable, and not arbitrary or capricious. Ironwood Owners Ass'n IX v. Solomon.

Elements of Due Process. The elements of due process include: (i) giving the accused notice of the alleged violation; (ii) providing a reasonable opportunity for the person to defend themselves; (iii) knowing the identity of the accuser; and (iv) giving the accused an opportunity to examine and refute the evidence. Applebaum v. Board of Directors (1980) 104 Cal.App.3d 648, 657; Carson v. Glass Bottle Blowers (1951) 37 Cal.2d 134, 144; Civil Code ยง1363(h); Civil Code ยง1363.05(b); Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(3).

When Violations Occur. Before imposing penalties, associations should do the following:
Notice of Procedures. The procedure for imposing penalties or suspending membership privileges must be in the governing documents. In the alternative, it must be annually sent to all members. Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(1).

Notice of Hearing. The person must be given written notice of the violation and hearing by personal delivery or first-class mail, at least 10 days prior to the meeting at which monetary penalties are imposed (unless the governing documents provide for a longer notice period). Civil Code ยง1363(h). For suspension of privileges, the notice must be at least 15 days prior to the hearing. Corp. Code ยง7341(d). The notice must be reasonably calculated to provide actual notice to the member. Corp. Code ยง7341(d). The notice must contain the following:

The date, time, and place of the hearing,
The nature of the alleged violation for which a member may be disciplined, and
A statement that the member has a right to attend the hearing and present evidence in his/her defense. Civil Code ยง1363(h). See sample notice.

Executive Session. Hearings should always be in executive session. Members have the right to submit their defense in writing rather than make an appearance before the board. Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(3).

Defense. The accused has the right to know the identity of his/her accuser and must have an opportunity to examine and refute the evidence. This may include questions during the hearing.
Decision. Unless the association's governing documents provide for a longer notice period, notice of the board's decision must be given by personal delivery or first-class mail within 15 days following the board's decision Civil Code ยง1363(h); Corp. Code ยง7341(c)(2).


Thanks Richard, I think that this is the final nail in the coffin. To me the suggestion to immediately fine always felt illegal and unfair. Also all HOA violation fine regulation documents that I read indicated that you needed to first alert, and secondly have a hearing with the offender about the violation before you'd be allowed to assess a fine for it. I just wanted to dig up the legal reasons why it would be illegal to do what this board member wants to do. I think I now have all the evidence needed to prove that our rules are sound as they stand and changing them to "fine without alert/hearing" is illegal.

Bill Fleites
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
We have found it is better to offer an alledged violator the right to request a Hearing rather than to always schedule a Hearing (unless the governing documents require otherwise). Some governing documents state that a Hearing shall be held. The problem with this procedure is that often the violator does not attend and therefore it has wasted the time of the Hearing committee members. So we have suggested to those HOAs to amend their document to only hold a Hearing if it is requested by the Owner. Following is an example:

A Violation Notice shall be sent to the Owner advising them on the controlling regulation which they are violating, a time limit for correction, and the right to request a Hearing to challenge the cited violation. To dispute a cited violation the Owner shall immediately submit a written request for a Hearing. Upon receipt of such a request, the Hearing Committe will schedule a meeting. The Owner shall be mailed a Notice of the Hearing date, time, and location. The Owner (or their representative) and the party bringing the charges will be allowed to present evidence and witnesses to support their position; and be offered an opportunity for rebuttal but not cross-examination. After the Hearing the Owner will be advised in writing of the decision.
TinoS (California)
Posts: 85
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 04/02/2010 8:31 PM
Bill check this out. (Bold by me)

Civil Code ยง1363. Management Authority; Parliamentary Procedure; Notice of Meetings; Records; Member Discipline.

(j) Nothing in this section shall be construed to create, expand, or reduce the authority of the board of directors of an association to impose monetary penalties on an association member for a violation of the governing documents or rules of the association.

What in the world does (j) mean?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 388
Posted:
Tino,

It means that whatever is stated in civil code 1363 does not take away the assn's right to impose monetary penalties. In other words, restrictions may be imposed on the assn in assessing penalties but they still have the right to do so.
SharonB6 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 70
Posted:
I think it's just the right thing to do when you send the first curiosity letter. We also have a process that the homeowner can dispute the fine. However, nobody has ever used it.

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