Can the same two people hold two offices

Started by FranD • 20 replies • 1602 views

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FranD (Georgia)
Posts: 102

Posted:

The reason I ask is there are two ladies who live together who both want to be on the same two committees consisting of only three members each. Since they are both troublemakers listening to another troublemaker who is on the board, I think they would be bias to others if they don't like how they want to make changes to their properties. What are the rules to this kind of behavior?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Fran,

IMO, the solution to this perceived problem is quite simple. The BOD or the BOD Pres has the authority to make appointments. So, no matter what these 2 ladies want doesn't enter into it. Whatever comm the BOD or BOD Pres feels they should be on, either together or individually, will be where they will be appointed to. If they don't like the appointment they do not have to accept it.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022

Posted:

FranD - If the committee serves as an advisory function that reports to the BOD then let them serve and disregard or seriously consider their advice. If the committee decides upon things outside of the BOD than look into changing any committee's ability to do that. : )

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Glen,

I like to think your remarks were made tongue in cheek, ergo the smiley.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

FranD,
Are you saying these two ladies can exert enough pressure on these committees that the lives of the membership will be changed. Even with the Honcho troublemaker on the Board, that would take one powerful committee, and that committee would be intact up until they tried to impose some NEW covenant on the membership and then the Board should replace them all. Something out of whack, re-look at your method of appointing committees and start over again taking the advise given.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022

Posted:

MaryA1 - Robert's response is kind of what I'm getting at. See, no committee should be able to make a decision, that is the Board's job. A committee should provide reports, recommendations, and advise the BOD, that's it. So these two ladies won't be the only troublemakers to come down the pike. I don't know how you tell members they can't participate, no matter how much one might wish they don't. : )

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Sorry, I'm not buying this one.

I see some serious bias.

We only have your characterization that they are "troublemakers" and that there is a cohort on the board who will somehow allow them to run amok.

And the title of your post, as usual, is not in sync with what you typed in your post.

Two women want to serve on two different committees, each committee consisting of only 3 people.

That does not read to me as the same two people holding two offices.

It reads to me as two people volunteering to be on the same two committees.

I see nothing wrong with that.

If the board sees their activities as disruptive, the board will have the ability to de-volunteer them at that time.

I find your position to be along the lines of "poisoning the well."

Your speculation may turn out validated, or it could just as easily turn out invalidated.

But with all due respect, you have planted a poisonous seed that already paints the tone of the picture and serves, on its own, to generate bias.

FranD (Georgia)
Posts: 102

Posted:

The two offices are the Architectural committee and nominating committee. It is not that they can exert pressure on the committee, they pretty much will be the committee. For them to impose new covenant changes won't happen cause it has to be voted on thank goodness. Good point about appointing committees. Thanks, I can always count on your advice... They are in with a click of people who are troublemakers and I am afraid we are in for an interesting ride if someone can't get something passed who needs it done.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Gerald,

Not all covenants are written the same. My CCRs gives ". . .the power and responsibility. . ." to the A/C to ". . .control the architectural and aesthetic character of the property." They also may ". . . adopt, amend and repeal architectural rules". The only time the BOD gets involved is with appeals.

"IF" these two individuals are of the character that the OP says, if they were to be appointed to the A/C they could wreak a lot of havoc -- "IF" their A/C operates as mine does. However, we really don't know what their true character is, we only know what the OP says, and we don't know how their committee operates and exactly what authority they have.

However, my previous statement stands. IMO, the board is not obligated to appoint these two individuals to any committee if they feel such an appointment would cause problems. So, frankly, I don't see a problem.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022

Posted:

MaryA1 - Anyone's CCR's that place more power in a committee than with the BOD is not good. I could see developing rules and then enforcing them once those rules are decided upon by vote of the BOD or community but the way you describe puts the BOD and therefore the Association in murky water. Are you sighting right from the pages of your prospectus or some kind of amendment verbiage?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Gerald,

What I wrote was quoted directly from the original CCRs. And, the CCRs of my former assn are the same -- different developer too. I've heard of many, many other assn's that operate this way. How does this put the BOD and the assn in murky water? The A/C doesn't adopt the architectural rules only the operating rules.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022

Posted:

MaryA1 - You state of the A/C "They also may ". . . adopt, amend and repeal architectural rules". The only time the BOD gets involved is with appeals.". The A/C does adopt by your very post.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Gerald,

That's right; they adopt, amend and repeal the operating rules. The architectural guidelines are all spelled out in the CCRs and can only be changed by a vote of the members.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022

Posted:

Anyone's CCR's that place more power in a committee than with the BOD is not good. The way you describe your CCR's and A/C it doesn't apply to you.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

GeraldT,

It may help to realize that not all HOA's evolve at the same rate due to restrictions written into the covenants by the developer. It would not be unheard of for the developer to control the ARC until such time as he feels it doesn't help his bottom line them it becomes a liability to him and he wants to pass it on to the HOA/POA.

So some ARC are new animals and some are ingrained animals. Also the authority of the ARC could change when it is finally turned over to the HOA.
For instance, the developer may have good reason to give the ARC more authority than the HOA does, but when the transfer took place maybe this authority didn't change. Sure the Boards can change it and probably will and maybe some boards are comfortable with giving the ARC more independence, we would not know the reason for this.

Gerald, I am not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do but there could be valid reasons that could effect the authority of the ARC. That's in general. In Mary's case it appears the ARC is not a bunch of renegades roaming the property looking for trouble, and the Board seems to have it in hand. God help them if they got out of line in her association.

One other comment, with over 6000 posts, got any idea how much writing and thinking that is, if she would mis speak and I am not saying she did here, what's the harm.............no one is perfect, well I am, but no one else is.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Robert,

Have you forgotten that I'm never wrong? LOL

As I mentioned to Gerald, the A/C only has the authority to adopt operating guidelines. The architectural guidelines are a part of the CCRs and cannot be amended by the A/C. So the committee doesn't really have as much power as Gerald would like to believe. However, they do have the power to make decisions regarding approval/disapproval of architectural change requests w/o any input from the BOD. Their decision is final unless the board were to overturn it on appeal. A board member chairs the committee and a report of the committee's actions is made to the board each month. The only way this procedure could change would be by amending the CCRs.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryA1 on 04/07/2010 7:33 AM
Robert,

Have you forgotten that I'm never wrong? LOL

As I mentioned to Gerald, the A/C only has the authority to adopt operating guidelines. The architectural guidelines are a part of the CCRs and cannot be amended by the A/C. So the committee doesn't really have as much power as Gerald would like to believe. However, they do have the power to make decisions regarding approval/disapproval of architectural change requests w/o any input from the BOD. Their decision is final unless the board were to overturn it on appeal. A board member chairs the committee and a report of the committee's actions is made to the board each month. The only way this procedure could change would be by amending the CCRs.

MaryA1 – I don’t believe any A/C has any more power. Please don’t put words in my mouth or thoughts in my post. You need to reread my posts with attention to my use of the word IF. Here’s what’s written.

You wrote of the A/C "They also may ". . . adopt, amend and repeal architectural rules".

Then you wrote “The A/C doesn't adopt the architectural rules only the operating rules.”.

You are writing conflicting things and response and confusion based upon that.

I wrote “Anyone's CCR's that place more power in a committee than with the BOD is not good.” At no time did I write any of the committees (yours or Fran’s) DO have the power.

I wrote IF, “If the committee serves as an advisory function that reports to the BOD then let them serve and disregard or seriously consider their advice. If the committee decides upon things outside of the BOD than look into changing any committee's ability to do that. : ).”

Emphasis on IF. I’m not trying to get into a war of words, merely state for the record what is written and that responses are based upon what is written.

So I would think that you and I agree and that committees that DO have the power to adopt amend or repeal rules outside of Board and community approval would be murky water.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Gerald,

Sorry, I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth. I don't like to do that because I don't like it when someone does that to me.

When you wrote: “Anyone's CCR's that place more power in a committee than with the BOD is not good.”, I took it to mean it was a direct response to my statement about my A/C's authority. You directed your response to me and even asked if I had taken the verbiage directly from my CCRs and that the way I stated it puts the BOD and the assn in murky waters. So why wouldn't I think you were talking about my HOA? And, I don't think I wrote anything conflicting. I clarified that the rules the A/C has authority to adopt are operating rules not architectural guidelines which are outlined in our CCRs.

As for an architectural committee having the power to adopt, amend or repeal rules w/o Board approval being "murky water", it would depend upon what type rules were being adopted. I see nothing wrong with them having the sole authority to adopt operating rules. As for architectural rules, I believe they should be approved by the BOD at least. Also, I disagree with you in that I don't see anything wrong with the architectural committee approving the architectural change requests w/o board approval. That's the way our A/C is set up -- in accordance with the CCRs -- and I don't see a problem with it. In fact our Property Manager has the authority to approve certain requests, such as house painting, w/o committee input. The architectural guidelines are all spelled out so it's just a matter of approving anything that is in compliance with the guidelines or disapproving anything that is not.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022

Posted:

MaryA1 - I wrote "Anyone's CCR's that place more power in a committee than with the BOD is not good." But I also followed that in the same reply with, "The way you describe your CCR's and A/C it doesn't apply to you.". So you can think what you want about what I'm saying does not apply to you, even when I write it does not. Your choice.

Quote:

Posted By MaryA1 on 04/07/2010 6:36 PM
Gerald,

Sorry, I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth. I don't like to do that because I don't like it when someone does that to me.

When you wrote: “Anyone's CCR's that place more power in a committee than with the BOD is not good.”, I took it to mean it was a direct response to my statement about my A/C's authority. You directed your response to me and even asked if I had taken the verbiage directly from my CCRs and that the way I stated it puts the BOD and the assn in murky waters. So why wouldn't I think you were talking about my HOA? And, I don't think I wrote anything conflicting. I clarified that the rules the A/C has authority to adopt are operating rules not architectural guidelines which are outlined in our CCRs.

As for an architectural committee having the power to adopt, amend or repeal rules w/o Board approval being "murky water", it would depend upon what type rules were being adopted. I see nothing wrong with them having the sole authority to adopt operating rules. As for architectural rules, I believe they should be approved by the BOD at least. Also, I disagree with you in that I don't see anything wrong with the architectural committee approving the architectural change requests w/o board approval. That's the way our A/C is set up -- in accordance with the CCRs -- and I don't see a problem with it. In fact our Property Manager has the authority to approve certain requests, such as house painting, w/o committee input. The architectural guidelines are all spelled out so it's just a matter of approving anything that is in compliance with the guidelines or disapproving anything that is not.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeraldT4 on 04/08/2010 8:04 AM
MaryA1 - I wrote "Anyone's CCR's that place more power in a committee than with the BOD is not good." But I also followed that in the same reply with, "The way you describe your CCR's and A/C it doesn't apply to you.". So you can think what you want about what I'm saying does not apply to you, even when I write it does not. Your choice.

Gerald,

You didn't write that until after I wrote to clarify my statement. However, I don't want to get into a shouting match with you. If your remarks don't apply to my HOA, so be it. Every assn is different and what works for one may not work for the other. But, in the end all must follow what's outlined in their gov. docs.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

There was a post here years ago where the ACC had so much power they had the ability to hire their own lawyer.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

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