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BrianM8 (Florida)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Is it ethical or Legal in Miami Florida to have a board member who is an attorney to also be the Associations Legal Advisor and Attorney on a 5,000 Retainer Monthly. Is that a conflict of interest? Thank you
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
BrianM8,
Like so many questions posted here Brian, you are asking the impossible, given the information you posted.

What Florida Statute are you covered under? Condo or HOA? Give us some information about your association, how large, some idea of income, how many on Board, how elected, etc, etc. Has this arrangement been challenged at a Board meeting? How was the elections held, how was this attorney appointment made, and was a vote taken?
Some Large association include all kinds of people employed by the Board. Is there sections in your documents that address employment of attorneys? A 5k monthly retainer would bankrupt most of the associations in Florida, I think the smallest HOA noticed here is around ten, and somewhere in that area for condos.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Brian,

Was the law firm hired before or after the person got on the board? If after, how much was being paid to the prior firm? Do you have that much legal issues that an attorney needs to be kept on retainer?

Tim
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Brian,

Here is the governing Statute on Not For Profit Corps, which you are filed under. UNLESS your governing documents address this situation, these are the laws.

"The 2009 Florida Statutes

Title XXXVI
BUSINESS ORGANIZATIONS Chapter 617
CORPORATIONS NOT FOR PROFIT

617.0832 Director conflicts of interest.--

(1) No contract or other transaction between a corporation and one or more of its directors or any other corporation, firm, association, or entity in which one or more of its directors are directors or officers or are financially interested shall be either void or voidable because of such relationship or interest, because such director or directors are present at the meeting of the board of directors or a committee thereof which authorizes, approves, or ratifies such contract or transaction, or because his or her or their votes are counted for such purpose, if:

(a) The fact of such relationship or interest is disclosed or known to the board of directors or committee which authorizes, approves, or ratifies the contract or transaction by a vote or consent sufficient for the purpose without counting the votes or consents of such interested directors;

(b) The fact of such relationship or interest is disclosed or known to the members entitled to vote on such contract or transaction, if any, and they authorize, approve, or ratify it by vote or written consent; or

(c) The contract or transaction is fair and reasonable as to the corporation at the time it is authorized by the board, a committee, or the members.

(2) For purposes of paragraph (1)(a) only, a conflict-of-interest transaction is authorized, approved, or ratified if it receives the affirmative vote of a majority of the directors on the board of directors, or on the committee, who have no relationship or interest in the transaction described in subsection (1), but a transaction may not be authorized, approved, or ratified under this section by a single director. If a majority of the directors who have no relationship or interest in the transaction vote to authorize, approve, or ratify the transaction, a quorum is present for the purpose of taking action under this section. The presence of, or a vote cast by, a director having a relationship or interest in the transaction does not affect the validity of any action taken under paragraph (1)(a) if the transaction is otherwise authorized, approved, or ratified as provided in subsection (1), but such presence or vote of such a director may be counted for purposes of determining whether the transaction is approved under other sections of this chapter.

(3) For purposes of paragraph (1)(b), a conflict-of-interest transaction is authorized, approved, or ratified if it receives the vote of a majority in interest of the members entitled to vote under this subsection. A director who has a relationship or interest in the transaction described in subsection (1) may not vote to determine whether to authorize, approve, or ratify a conflict-of-interest transaction under paragraph (1)(b). However, the vote of that director is counted in determining whether the transaction is approved under other sections of this chapter. A majority in interest of the members entitled to vote on the transaction under this subsection constitutes a quorum for the purpose of taking action under this section. As used in this subsection, the term "majority in interest" refers to a majority of the voting shares or other voting units allotted to the members.

History.--s. 55, ch. 90-179; s. 91, ch. 97-102; s. 31, ch. 2009-205.

ยท
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Brian,

After I posted the Statute, I said--"WOW!!! A retainer for $60,000 annually? Did you have the number correct? WOW again. How big is your association? My 457 home developement in Martin County had a $400.00 a month retainer on a Palm Beach attorney from a famous firm. I am amazed at that number unless you are a huge association with lots of legal business. WOW!
BrianM8 (Florida)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Donna Yes, it is confirmed that they are charging 5000 a month fora community of 463 homes. I thought this was way out of the ball park. We do not have a lot of Legal Issues with the exception of the HOA fees that need collecting. But the attorney passes those fees onto the home owner....I requested a copy of the 2010 Budget and will advise when I receive it to confirm.

thank you for your help!

BrianM8 (Florida)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Tim

Good question, I am speaking with some other homeowners to confirm the dates. I will advise once we confirm.

thank you
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Brian,
Be smart how you go about all this. Not suggesting anything other than to observe that 5 K/month is not a small amount and people become very touchy about such things, the receiver and the donor alike. Just don't stick your neck out until you have support and facts that can serve as proof.
BrianM8 (Florida)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Robert

Trust me Im not sticking my neck out for anybody. We are just trying to understand the legalities of the situation. I am the type of person that like to be informed. These types of situations are very sensitive especially if you pint the finger at one partculer person or entity. This is a great forum to understand the way other HOA communities work. Thank you for voicing the warning. appreciated.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Brian,

And don't forget that you don't want to mess with a $60,000 attorney as well.
BrianM8 (Florida)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Donna

Agreed, cant really judge a book by its cover these dys. Its not my place at the moment to deal with the situation, I just like to hear what is going on in other HOA's and how they deal with their issues. If I wanted to make a change I would join the board.....thats not my intent at this time.

Thank you for all the information though, it has confirmed my thoughts. I dont complain because our HOA is doing their job and our rates have stayed level for the past two years, so long as that does not change I shall remain silient.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Brian, I agree with you. For an HOA to pay $5000 a month (retainer) for a community of 463 homes is way out of the ball park unless this includes collection fees for over 100 delinquent accounts plus at least one phone discussion every day.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Brian,
Well, you let yourself open for this one.
Can't help but observe: "A voice speaks from the silent majority". I am sure you have plenty of company. Just stating the facts. Silence is often determined by some boards as everyone is happy as a pig in a poke. Rarely is this the case. You write well, have good communications skills, are interesting, and obviously concerned, but, you will be more concerned if your standards are infringed on. Your reason for wanting to guide the destiny of your HOA should never include any personal agenda. The HOA boards that work best are guided by the principals of protection of the association General statement I know, but you voiced you wanted to know how
HOA works........that mandate is a good start and every owner has a place at the table.
JackB8 (Virginia)
Posts: 141
Posted:
Brian
Board members are volunteers who should receive no compensation IAW our Virginia state law. An attorney under retainer paid by the board is not an uncompensated board member. If Virginia state law did not cover this issue and our board wanted to compensate an atorney board member by putting him/her on retainer, I would be right in the middle of that issue and make sure that did not happen. I don't understand how your board let that happen.
GeorgeG5 (California)
Posts: 19
Posted:
Brian,

I am not surprised to find the following section in the relevant Florida code posted by Donna:

"(c) The contract or transaction is fair and reasonable as to the corporation at the time it is authorized by the board, a committee, or the members."

The key phrase in this passage is "fair and reasonable." Of the director's duties as your association attorney you have written: "We do not have a lot of Legal Issues with the exception of the HOA fees that need collecting. But the attorney passes those fees onto the home owner. . . ."

Robert ("A 5k monthly retainer would bankrupt most of the associations in Florida"), Donna ("I am amazed at that number unless you are a huge association with lots of legal business. WOW!"), and Roger ("For an HOA to pay $5000 a month [retainer] for a community of 463 homes is way out of the ball park unless this includes collection fees for over 100 delinquent accounts plus at least one phone discussion every day") have, I think, justifiably questioned the rate being charged by the director-lawyer.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

George,
Good post. Yes, my statement of "WOW!, unless you have lots of legal business" is my wondering of, is this fair and reasonable? My guess is not in my world. AND he is a Board member.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Here is some interesting figures to put this in perspective.

$5000................. for 1 month
$5000................. for 1 year ,,,,,,$60,000.00
$5000................. for 5 years ,,,,,$3,000,000.00
$5000 ................ for 10 years.....$6,000,000.00
$5000................. for 20 years.....$12,000,000.00

Not bad for part time work. Hell of a time to find this out after passing my 20 year mark in my condo. I could own the whole place by now.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Hey Old man,
Your calculator is broke. Also you got a crack in your brain.

Well, I swan.
I think I better go to Big Lots and spend another dollar.

Thanks Honeypot!~

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