Camera Video to prove fines and inforcement

Started by MarkM19 • 15 replies • 1502 views

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MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 65

Posted:

We have a muiduim sized HOA that rents out our Clubhouse facilities to Homeowners. It is our policy to have the Homeowners clean the facility after they are finished with the event and complete a checklist. We then have a BOD go in and make sure that the cleaning was done. We have run into a few instances where the HO says they did the cleaning when we know they have not done it.

We have Video cameras in all of our Buildings including the Clubhouse. When we reviewed the tape we can see that some people are not cleaning before leaving. Does anyone else use cameras for infocement issues? If so has any problems come from this use?

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Mark,

My former HOA uses a camera in the clubhouse, with the same restrictions as you have, that anyone renting out the facility cleans up afteerward. BUT we also require a $50.00 refundable fee to insure that the place does get cleaned. Everone signs a mini contract before they can use the facility. The cameras are great and no arguements can prevail over the proof that a film gives you.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Mark,
I am sure Donna is not suggesting you go to court with something like this and I agree with her about the deposit, but I would mnake the required refundable deposit twice or three times what it would cost to get the place cleaned and a tack on fee of the trouble to get it done.

I also would insure you have all the rules posted and require signatures. It probably would be a good idea to stick to the requirements of the contract and stipulate that the board member inspecting the property is the final judge.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 65

Posted:

Thanks Donna and Robert,
I like what both of you had to say. I think that the BOD is the final judge in this matter. I feel we are well within our rights to Video our property. It is the HOAs job to protect our assests.

I guess that question I am really asking is are we exposed to any possible legai recourse from the homeowners for Video taping the events held in our buildings?

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Absolutely not. If you use a contract, have a statement about being video taped on it. Your entire association should also be aware of it. Place a small notice in the clubhouse as well and that is all that is nescessary for notification. Protection of the HOA property is important and I know what items inside of these facilities cost and the membership surely does not want to replace them because of vandalism or reckless use.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Donna,
Did I dream one time there was a post here about a video camera catching a young damsel and dashing knight in the hot tub naking soap suds or some such and there was conversation here about what to do with the tape as the father was upset.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Robert,
No you did not dream it. That was my 15 year old tenant and friend in the tub, making nice, nice. But no Father was involved, it was the Mom in my case. Thank God for the camera which was proof that was needed to encourage them to move to a more understanding community---like South Beach

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Mark,

Donna hit the nail on the head. If you are going to have cameras rolling at an event you need to inform the person renting the facility about it. Failing to inform them is what could cause problems.

Tim

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Tim,

I just returned from grocery shopping at Publix (lg Fl. based chain. ) A new sign has appeared in the cosmetic aisle where they have the high end Oil of Olay products. It says. "This department is being video taped" I have not seen that before and I guess it is sending a message to those who , well you know.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Donna,
I think you advice to notify fits the situation. But, give this issue a little thought and you begin to realize that we are photographed and videoed all the time and no one asks permission, and if they did what on earth could you do about it. Everytime you go through a toll booth, an ATM, a store, a bank, a gas station, not to mention attending sporting events or walking down the streets. Granted you might see a sign but what does that actually prove or resolve?
It the HOA wants to notice that video taping is allowed, I have no problem with that, but how can you drawn the line between that and someone taking notes or typing conversation on a laptop, and there are plenty of folks that can do that. In fact, large Board videos and simucast all the time to TV stations and I bet a dollor no one signs an agreement that they give permission for this, and as far as I can see there is no legal difference.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 02/18/2010 10:04 AM
Donna,
I think you advice to notify fits the situation. But, give this issue a little thought and you begin to realize that we are photographed and videoed all the time and no one asks permission, and if they did what on earth could you do about it. Everytime you go through a toll booth, an ATM, a store, a bank, a gas station, not to mention attending sporting events or walking down the streets. Granted you might see a sign but what does that actually prove or resolve?
It the HOA wants to notice that video taping is allowed, I have no problem with that, but how can you drawn the line between that and someone taking notes or typing conversation on a laptop, and there are plenty of folks that can do that. In fact, large Board videos and simucast all the time to TV stations and I bet a dollor no one signs an agreement that they give permission for this, and as far as I can see there is no legal difference.

Robert,

The line is drawn on the issue of an expectation of privacy.

The street, an ATM, store, etc. are all public places where a right to privacy would not be expected. However, renting a space for a private event gives one an expectation of privacy. Therefore, notification that cameras (outside the control of the person hiring the hall or an invited guest) are videotaping the event would be required.

Tim

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Tim,
Is there really such a law???
You are saying the association has to turn off security video cameras to rent a space or let some one use the space for free.
I suspect it may be a little the opposite, given the circumstances. In other words, here is the space and the facilities as we are renting them, use them under the conditions presented or find someplace else.

I also think the board would be a complete fool to even look at the tape unless there was a security breach of somekkind. This issue seems to be a no issue in a public place, yet there are all kinds of deamons hiding out in associations. IMHO

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 65

Posted:

The reason we looked into the Video was used was because a letter was sent to a lady who rented the place saying that the space was not properly cleaned. One of the BOD who inspects the Building after it is used noticed that the floors were not swept or mopped as is required in our cleaning checklist. A letter was sent to the lady and she went off on the BOD for accusing her of not doing what she swears she did.

We looked at the Video and sure enough she did not clean at all. My concern is can we show her the Video as proof she did not do her part in cleaning the place? I see eveyones part. I never thought about the times when you walk into Walmart and other stores. We are all Videoed all of the time without our permission.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 02/18/2010 5:44 PM
Tim,
Is there really such a law???

Robert, I work in Broadcasting and this issue comes up many times. The expectation of privacy is actually a legal concept and really only exists in case law and not a specific statute. However, each State has some sort of law associated either with privacy or electronic recordings.

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 02/18/2010 5:44 PM

You are saying the association has to turn off security video cameras to rent a space or let some one use the space for free.

Not at all. As I posted earlier when agreeing with Donna, notification needs to be given that recording devices are used within the building. Cost was never mentioned and is not at all related to the question you posed - where do you draw the line?

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 02/18/2010 5:44 PM

I suspect it may be a little the opposite, given the circumstances. In other words, here is the space and the facilities as we are renting them, use them under the conditions presented or find someplace else.

We are all saying the exact same thing. Disclose that cameras are used and the person who wishes to rent then has a choice - use the facilities or find a different one.

The issue comes into play if the recording devices are not disclosed and the video ends up on the evening news (vs. being used for verification of cleanup).

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 02/18/2010 5:44 PM

I also think the board would be a complete fool to even look at the tape unless there was a security breach of some kind. This issue seems to be a no issue in a public place, yet there are all kinds of demons hiding out in associations. IMHO

Agree with this statement 100 percent.

Tim

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 02/18/2010 6:03 PM
The reason we looked into the Video was used was because a letter was sent to a lady who rented the place saying that the space was not properly cleaned. One of the BOD who inspects the Building after it is used noticed that the floors were not swept or mopped as is required in our cleaning checklist. A letter was sent to the lady and she went off on the BOD for accusing her of not doing what she swears she did.

We looked at the Video and sure enough she did not clean at all. My concern is can we show her the Video as proof she did not do her part in cleaning the place? I see eveyones part. I never thought about the times when you walk into Walmart and other stores. We are all Videoed all of the time without our permission.

Mark,

If you want to use the tape, but failed to disclose that the cameras were there, it's a 50/50 chance of the member going off on you about that (as I suspect they will ignore the actual issue of them not cleaning).

If you had previously disclosed the cameras in writing, or if there are notices in the facility saying that they are there, there shouldn't be an issue in showing the tape.

Either way, take the process as lessons learned and correct what needs to be corrected. I would recommend (as others have) to start collecting a refundable deposit of $100 or more for cleaning of the hall and place within the contract that recording devices are in use inside and outside of the building (as the case may be).

Tim

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

I appreciate what Tim is saying, but personally I would use the tape with this homeowner.

You don't have to take it to court, just let her know that you have reviewed the videotape of the after-event clean up and nothing was done. Let her know she can review the tape if she likes, but that there is a requirement for clean up for the deposit to be returned and the tape indicates it was not done.

I seriously doubt she will take anyone to court over it. She may threaten it, but once she realizes that there is concrete, unambiguous evidence that she did not clean up, and that she essentially lied about it, she will likely back down.

Oh, she'll be pissed, and she'll bad mouth you to hell and back, but so be it.

Then I would be sure to include the note in the contract, and even post a sign if you feel you need to.

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