MaryC9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
Has anyone run into "conflict of interest" with Board Members having other professional careers ie real estate agents or lawyers?
A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
condo board of trustees - massachusetts
Started by MaryC9 • 28 replies • 3562 views
💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.
Create Free Account →
⚡ Takes 30 seconds
Already a member? Log in
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Nope.
In fact, our first board president (after the transition/turnover) was a real estate agent. He was in the office for 3 years and on the board for 4.
What would the conflict be, exactly?
In fact, our first board president (after the transition/turnover) was a real estate agent. He was in the office for 3 years and on the board for 4.
What would the conflict be, exactly?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
MaryC,
Welcome to the site MaryC, now let me rag on you a little. To answer your question: Yes!
Now that is out of the way tell us what you are looking for. Conflict of interest is a subject that will come up from time to time in all associations. You have to know more about the specifics than is possible to convey to a site such as this. In the end someone has to make a judgment call if it concerns the protection of the association. An appearance of conflict of interest may be a problem some times and other times not.Big question that has to be decided, first and foremost: Does this relationship harm the association, If yes, don't allow it. Anything after that like, example; does it violate covenants or the law or the any other governing document? All beyond my foremost have to be prioritized, and understood. It a complicated process. You are more than likely not going to fine this addressed directly in your documents, you must decide.
Welcome to the site MaryC, now let me rag on you a little. To answer your question: Yes!
Now that is out of the way tell us what you are looking for. Conflict of interest is a subject that will come up from time to time in all associations. You have to know more about the specifics than is possible to convey to a site such as this. In the end someone has to make a judgment call if it concerns the protection of the association. An appearance of conflict of interest may be a problem some times and other times not.Big question that has to be decided, first and foremost: Does this relationship harm the association, If yes, don't allow it. Anything after that like, example; does it violate covenants or the law or the any other governing document? All beyond my foremost have to be prioritized, and understood. It a complicated process. You are more than likely not going to fine this addressed directly in your documents, you must decide.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Mary,
Do you have a real estate agent or an attorney on your board? Why do you think that poses a conflict of interest? Conflict of interest means the person reaps some financial gain by being a board member.
Do you have a real estate agent or an attorney on your board? Why do you think that poses a conflict of interest? Conflict of interest means the person reaps some financial gain by being a board member.
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posts: 424
Posted:
MaryA1 -
I think your definition (e.g. requiring financial gain) is too narrow. Financial gain, or even potential financial gain, isn't required for some situation to be a conflict of interest.
Rather:
"A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other."
or
"Situation that has the potential to undermine the impartiality of a person because of the possibility of a clash between the person's self-interest and professional-interest or public-interest."
Each of these broader definitions would include situations where DECISION MAKING is potentially influenced. The decisions might not be of a financial nature (for example ARC approvals and the like).
I think your definition (e.g. requiring financial gain) is too narrow. Financial gain, or even potential financial gain, isn't required for some situation to be a conflict of interest.
Rather:
"A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other."
or
"Situation that has the potential to undermine the impartiality of a person because of the possibility of a clash between the person's self-interest and professional-interest or public-interest."
Each of these broader definitions would include situations where DECISION MAKING is potentially influenced. The decisions might not be of a financial nature (for example ARC approvals and the like).
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
JohnO, please cite your sources for the "definitions" of "conflict of interest."
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posts: 424
Posted:
Michele -
Happy to do so, but just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that these are necessarily the only "authoritative" definitions of the phrase.
Rather I was suggesting that there are other definitions available that are broader than being limited to mandatorily including a financial aspect.
This was a "quick & dirty" search and those two definitions came from wikipedia and businessdictionary.com respectively.
Just to confirm, I also checked the "legal angle" with both law.com and Nolo and discovered that similarly, neither necessarily include a financial advantage component.
Happy to do so, but just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that these are necessarily the only "authoritative" definitions of the phrase.
Rather I was suggesting that there are other definitions available that are broader than being limited to mandatorily including a financial aspect.
This was a "quick & dirty" search and those two definitions came from wikipedia and businessdictionary.com respectively.
Just to confirm, I also checked the "legal angle" with both law.com and Nolo and discovered that similarly, neither necessarily include a financial advantage component.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
And that's sort of my point.
But the issue is that there must be a TRUE conflict of interest in that the individuals will personally benefit in some meaningful way (and, yes, it generally IS a financial benefit) from the arrangement.
I still fail to see how a real estate agent or lawyer being on the board, or even president of a board, is in any way a conflict of interest, simply because of their career choices.
I have never seen a valid argument presented to change that position.
But the issue is that there must be a TRUE conflict of interest in that the individuals will personally benefit in some meaningful way (and, yes, it generally IS a financial benefit) from the arrangement.
I still fail to see how a real estate agent or lawyer being on the board, or even president of a board, is in any way a conflict of interest, simply because of their career choices.
I have never seen a valid argument presented to change that position.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posts: 664
Posted:
Some issues that may come up from time to time could create a COI situation for certain people.
But that is true of any Board member, not just those who happen to be real-estate agents or attorneys by profession. Choice of profession does not immediately mean that an individual has a COI for all Board issues.
When a COI issue does arise for a Board member, then that member should abstain from voting on that specific issue.
But that is true of any Board member, not just those who happen to be real-estate agents or attorneys by profession. Choice of profession does not immediately mean that an individual has a COI for all Board issues.
When a COI issue does arise for a Board member, then that member should abstain from voting on that specific issue.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
John,
I was paraphrasing AZ state law -- nonprofit corp act.
I was paraphrasing AZ state law -- nonprofit corp act.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DwightT on 01/11/2010 1:42 PM
Some issues that may come up from time to time could create a COI situation for certain people.
But that is true of any Board member, not just those who happen to be real-estate agents or attorneys by profession. Choice of profession does not immediately mean that an individual has a COI for all Board issues.
When a COI issue does arise for a Board member, then that member should abstain from voting on that specific issue.
Some issues that may come up from time to time could create a COI situation for certain people.
But that is true of any Board member, not just those who happen to be real-estate agents or attorneys by profession. Choice of profession does not immediately mean that an individual has a COI for all Board issues.
When a COI issue does arise for a Board member, then that member should abstain from voting on that specific issue.
Exactly.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Not going to join in this as I can see where it is going and if you want to be fair, both sides here have valid concerns. But, I know for sure that there is little or nothing that can be explained away with the word "exactly", not in an HOA given the differences is location, size, price, type of association, history, size of BOD, demographics of the owners, age of the owners, blah, blah, and the ever present mix of personalities of the associations.
Now this may be drugs talking, as I just came back from hospital after a little three hour surgery. All went well for a while and now seems to be back on track. Just thought I would get on and post an entry and see if I am as srewed up as before.
Now this may be drugs talking, as I just came back from hospital after a little three hour surgery. All went well for a while and now seems to be back on track. Just thought I would get on and post an entry and see if I am as srewed up as before.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Now the drugs must be wearing off and I feel compelled to join John and Dwight in this discussioin. To pass over the significance of any Board member that may have a COI on a certain issue and say , well Real estate people and lawyers, etc are covered under the same blanklet fails to recognize the existence of a three member board for one example. You all say well, don't allow those members with a possible COI to vote. If there are two with a COI, then one person decides, hardly what you voted on when the board was elected. So, to me, I would much prefer to have a full board vote.
I also concede things are not likkely to happen the way I want them to happen and there are other things that can cause a board member not to vote. But we, by decree,are not going to make law on this site. That's why I support John and Dwight to look at the big picture and open the door that a realistic concern is to be aware that some Board members may or could have a COI because of their connections in the business word that could intermingle with association business. Keep in mind it is association business, not Board business. If I had my druthers, I would endorse a lawyer before I would I Real Estate person. I suppose history, real or imagined taught me that..........NOT exactly. I actually would welcome a Lawyer owner to serve as a legal advisor to the association. I think it would be a wonderful contribution to his association.........not exactly a board member but still a powerful force.
I also concede things are not likkely to happen the way I want them to happen and there are other things that can cause a board member not to vote. But we, by decree,are not going to make law on this site. That's why I support John and Dwight to look at the big picture and open the door that a realistic concern is to be aware that some Board members may or could have a COI because of their connections in the business word that could intermingle with association business. Keep in mind it is association business, not Board business. If I had my druthers, I would endorse a lawyer before I would I Real Estate person. I suppose history, real or imagined taught me that..........NOT exactly. I actually would welcome a Lawyer owner to serve as a legal advisor to the association. I think it would be a wonderful contribution to his association.........not exactly a board member but still a powerful force.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To clarify,
When I mentioned Dwight I was referring to his opening the door that other Board members could have a conflict of interest, and the solution is for them to abstain. I am suggesting there has to be consideration made for for other folks, not that to abstain is simply a benign action, it iosn't.
When I mentioned Dwight I was referring to his opening the door that other Board members could have a conflict of interest, and the solution is for them to abstain. I am suggesting there has to be consideration made for for other folks, not that to abstain is simply a benign action, it iosn't.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Robert, I hope all is going well. You are in my thoughts.
Regarding the topic at hand, trust me, there isn't a scenario that exists that someone can't find a "worst case scenario" to illustrate their own position.
The fact is that merely being a real estate agent or a lawyer in no way, in and of itself, presents a "conflict of interest" for being on an HOA board.
In fact, I can't think of a single profession that would disqualify someone from serving on a board of directors for an HOA, and yes, that includes owning or working in a project management company. The conflict comes from a person's actions, not from what they are.
The idea that someone is a member of a three-person board, and two members must abstain from a vote (regardless of the reason for the abstention) thereby leaving only one person to control, well, that's just the way it is!
Seriously, how likely and how often would such a scenario exist?
And if by some fluke or aligning of the planets it does happen, well, so be it!
I still haven't heard any explanation as to what the conflict of interest a real estate agent or lawyer would have.
Regarding the topic at hand, trust me, there isn't a scenario that exists that someone can't find a "worst case scenario" to illustrate their own position.
The fact is that merely being a real estate agent or a lawyer in no way, in and of itself, presents a "conflict of interest" for being on an HOA board.
In fact, I can't think of a single profession that would disqualify someone from serving on a board of directors for an HOA, and yes, that includes owning or working in a project management company. The conflict comes from a person's actions, not from what they are.
The idea that someone is a member of a three-person board, and two members must abstain from a vote (regardless of the reason for the abstention) thereby leaving only one person to control, well, that's just the way it is!
Seriously, how likely and how often would such a scenario exist?
And if by some fluke or aligning of the planets it does happen, well, so be it!
I still haven't heard any explanation as to what the conflict of interest a real estate agent or lawyer would have.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Michael,
I think John and I are using the same information you are and applying a different logic. Nothing wrong with your logic or information, nor anything wrong with ours. We just don't end up down the road in the same place. Certainly your last sentence is suggesting that if someone, anyone, would answer your question, you would change your mind. I don't think it is a long stretch to believe that there has been circumstances such as this. No, no one is suggesting all lawyers and real estate agents are crooks, it's nothing more than reaching a different conclusion using the same information you have. In the end we are asking the poster to do the same thing we did in order to form our opinions. Consider the information. We here are not the Lady holding the scales to determine right or wrong, we are 'just saying', consider the information.
And I thank you very much for your thoughts, I seem to be doing great now, and up walking around and feel pretty good. All is well.
I think John and I are using the same information you are and applying a different logic. Nothing wrong with your logic or information, nor anything wrong with ours. We just don't end up down the road in the same place. Certainly your last sentence is suggesting that if someone, anyone, would answer your question, you would change your mind. I don't think it is a long stretch to believe that there has been circumstances such as this. No, no one is suggesting all lawyers and real estate agents are crooks, it's nothing more than reaching a different conclusion using the same information you have. In the end we are asking the poster to do the same thing we did in order to form our opinions. Consider the information. We here are not the Lady holding the scales to determine right or wrong, we are 'just saying', consider the information.
And I thank you very much for your thoughts, I seem to be doing great now, and up walking around and feel pretty good. All is well.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Good! Glad to hear all is well! It can be draining dealing with physical issues!
I don't know that I'd change my mind if someone would answer the question.
But I pretty much would like to have as much information as possible in order to either reaffirm to myself of my own opinion or add it to the "needs more reflection" category.
I'm always open to digesting new information.
It just intrigues me that someone would so quickly jump to the conclusion the Original Poster did with no other data to indicate some sort of competing interests going on.
I don't know that I'd change my mind if someone would answer the question.
But I pretty much would like to have as much information as possible in order to either reaffirm to myself of my own opinion or add it to the "needs more reflection" category.
I'm always open to digesting new information.
It just intrigues me that someone would so quickly jump to the conclusion the Original Poster did with no other data to indicate some sort of competing interests going on.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Ah Ha Michelle,
That is what is so difficult most of the time, we don't know what has caused the poster to raise an issue. We do know, lots of times, we have to fish around to get to the nut. Then when we think we have it figured out, it turns out to be something else. But no bother, sometimes we say something that rings a bell, even when we are taking opposite sides. And I know we all play a little devils advocate at times. You're a smart lady and you know some stuff, that's enough for me to consider what you say, we aren't very far apart, and I figure by next week you will have seen the light and always agree with me. You don't know where I live do you?
That is what is so difficult most of the time, we don't know what has caused the poster to raise an issue. We do know, lots of times, we have to fish around to get to the nut. Then when we think we have it figured out, it turns out to be something else. But no bother, sometimes we say something that rings a bell, even when we are taking opposite sides. And I know we all play a little devils advocate at times. You're a smart lady and you know some stuff, that's enough for me to consider what you say, we aren't very far apart, and I figure by next week you will have seen the light and always agree with me. You don't know where I live do you?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 01/12/2010 3:08 PM
You don't know where I live do you?
You don't know where I live do you?
hehe. No, but I did have a top secret/cryptological clearance when I was in the Army Security Agency, so I know some people who know some people who know some people who could probably tell me!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
michael,
I know about you people, I was on one of those Navy Spy Ships durin the earky 60'S.
I have moved to Gimbuodduta.
I know about you people, I was on one of those Navy Spy Ships durin the earky 60'S.
I have moved to Gimbuodduta.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Aaaah!
Then you know of the USS Pueblo?
Those were our guys. Their experience was part of our training.
I was in Korea about 8 or 9 years after that "incident."
And it's still "Michele" (female), not "Michael" (male).
Then you know of the USS Pueblo?
Those were our guys. Their experience was part of our training.
I was in Korea about 8 or 9 years after that "incident."
And it's still "Michele" (female), not "Michael" (male).
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Michele, I can not imagine anyone mistaking you for a Michael. Not if they read a couple of your posts. Of course I mean this as a positive reference to the fairer sex.
I was on the Jamestowm, Mostly up and down the African coasts, just snoopimg around, I think! Not the best duty I ever had, but we pulled into some wild ports.
I was on the Jamestowm, Mostly up and down the African coasts, just snoopimg around, I think! Not the best duty I ever had, but we pulled into some wild ports.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
If you ever want to chat offline [email protected] can reach me!
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Michele,
That someone may be me. I worked for the same agency with the same security clearance. Maybe I was your boss and you didn't know it! LOL
PS
I know where Robert lives!!
That someone may be me. I worked for the same agency with the same security clearance. Maybe I was your boss and you didn't know it! LOL
PS
I know where Robert lives!!
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
mwahahahaahaha!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Neither or both of you 'Snoops' could track me down with a GPS and a bloodhound.
I am incognito, so deeply covered I can't be found. But to make the game interesting, I will give you two clues. I used to be the governor of Alaska, I am a woman.
I am incognito, so deeply covered I can't be found. But to make the game interesting, I will give you two clues. I used to be the governor of Alaska, I am a woman.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,
Are you saying you're Sarah Palin in drag???
Are you saying you're Sarah Palin in drag???
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Noooooooooo!
I am saying she is me in drag...........figer that one out
I am saying she is me in drag...........figer that one out
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
I don't think I want to "figer" that one out!! LOL
🎯 You've read this entire discussion
Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:
- ✓ Ask follow-up questions
- ✓ Share your experience
- ✓ Get expert advice
- ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →
⚡ Takes 30 seconds
Already a member? Log in here