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MonicaN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
I live in a neighborhood with 24 homes in the association. A few years ago I was voted President, but after about a year resigned due to difficulty with other board members. Last year my husband went to our annual meeting (I couldn't make it due to my work) and he was one of only 2 homes who showed up. The previous board had all resigned AGAIN so he was roped into becoming the treasurer and the one other attendee became the president. There currently is no VP because no one else will volunteer. We have 4 homes that are seriously in arrears on their dues. We've tried to get them to make payments, and they say ok, but never send any money. Now the assn is bankrupt and we have past due bills to the mgmt co, the city for lights, and the ins co. We've asked other homeowners to get on the board and help out and all of them want to disband the assn. But the mgmt co says we can't because there is a neighborhood park. My husband is tired of being the only person who will do anything and doesn't want to be legally liable as the treasurer so he is resigning. I think the president will likely resign too. He won't even return our calls and emails. He asked the mgmt co to just raise dues and not even have an annual meeting. What happens if no one will volunteer for the board? Is there a way to disband it? Would some public agency take it over?
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Monica,

Your covenants may hold the rules for disbanding the HOA. My covenants allow for the dissolution of my HOA if 100% - a near impossible number - of the 236 property owners vote to disband.

With 24 properties and a case of severe neighborhood apathy, you may face a smoother process if your covenants allow.

I would think - I'm not a lawyer - that the HOA's vendors would want their money prior to any moves on your HOA part. And the homeowners are on the hook for it.

Neighborhood apathy is silently the most damaging affliction a covenant-protected neighborhood can suffer, worse than a "fighting" board in most cases.
MonicaN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thank you Kelly. We've been told by the mgmt. co that our neighborhood is not allowed to disband the HOA because we have a park that requires liability insurance. We asked about selling that land, but they say we can't because it is not buildable due to an underground creek and underground utilities. That is our only common area and no one cares or uses it anyway, so we wish we could let it go and disband. Still trying to figure out our options. I'll check the CCR's again. My husband and I would continue on the board if we weren't the only ones, but you're right, the apathy is debilitating to any progress at all.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
More than likely one or more of the venders will sue for non-payment and the court will appoint a receiver to administer the HOA's affairs which more than likely will include an increase in dues as you will now have to pay his/her fees too. The receiver will remain in charge until the members can show the court that they are willing and able to administer it again.

As far as the MC advising you can't disband, I don't know if I would take that to the bank as they have a vested interest in seeing the HOA remain. In your documents the procedure for disbanding should be spelled out which may include getting the local city, county or township in taking over your common areas which may open them to the public but at a minimum I would expect them to declare you’re the homes in your community a special "service tax area". In other words they would raise the taxes on the 24 homes to pay for it all.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Monica, in addition to a creditor seeking to have a receiver appointed, any member of the HOA can also petition the court to appoint a receiver.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Why on earth would an HOA of 24 homes require the services of a property management company?!

I would think that if you let that vendor go, and all you did was maintain the minor common area, you'd be fine.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I agree. Why is the MC needed? Of course they don't want you to dis-band. They would be out of a job.

Hire a good landscape company to maintain the "park" and pare down your expenses.

BTW - what is your annual budget?

HB (Oregon)
Posts: 143
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleD on 12/18/2009 8:29 PM
Why on earth would an HOA of 24 homes require the services of a property management company?!

I would think that if you let that vendor go, and all you did was maintain the minor common area, you'd be fine.


I wondered the same thing about this situation, why do they keep an MC. After thinking about it, it is quite clear. If they cannot even get by WITH an MC, when all they HAVE to do is say "yes" or "no" and most likely hold one or two meetings per year, how would they manage by themselves when NOBODY is willing to do anything?

I think one or two people just need to sit down, decide a plan of action and do it. The plan of action should be very minimal. For example:

*Have two people volunteer for Pres & Treasurer (just to make decisions)
*Hold a meeting
- vote out the MC and if they want, find one that will do ALL of the work for them (properly)as it seems this MC isn't doing their job.
- figure out what kind of minimal dues they need to pay current vendors, get rid of any vendors not needed in the future and come up with a basic budget.
- maintain the basic with no changes/improvements, etc.

If nobody shows up to meetings, do what needs to be done with the two people willing to do the work. Maybe if people don't like the decisions of these two people they will show up to meetings and participate???
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
HB,
Reasonable approach, and in line with what the others are suggesting bottom line.
You don't need all the owners to do something, probably not a good idea, you need a couple and as noted, get rid of the M/c, for now anyway. But the few that are going to have to druve the train must know what they are doing, not an impossible task, just be responsible. In the end few will thank you, but that's not the point anyway.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
HB,
Reasonable approach, and in line with what the others are suggesting bottom line.
You don't need all the owners to do something, probably not a good idea, you need a couple and as noted, get rid of the M/c, for now anyway. But the few that are going to have to druve the train must know what they are doing, not an impossible task, just be responsible. In the end few will thank you, but that's not the point anyway.
MonicaN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
We never really wanted a MC, but there are here are the reasons we ended up with one. 1st, the previous board had so much in-fighting due to 2 board members ganging up on the pres to enforce silly parking rules and other unreasonable petty things. When the pres said, "let's be reasonable and not LOOK for problems" they started having secret meetings and sending out notices without the approval of the pres. They even sent a violation to the pres for a houseguest that parked on the street in front of her house for 3 days. The pres got a petition to call a special meeting to resign and suggest the rest of the board resign. While 8 homes signed the petition, not one of them showed up to the meeting. The pres and 4 other homes who had banded together against her were the only in attendance. Those 4 people voted to have a MC so that they could have someone else be the bad guy with their petty rules and do the work that they didn't want to do. The pres voted against it. But a pres with no back up is pointless. Since then 2 of those HO have sold their homes and moved, thus it is much quieter and there has been no violation enforcements. (it hasn't been needed as any rule breaking has been very minor) But now NO ONE will volunteer to do the work, and every time my husband talks to them they say they don't want a MC due to the cost. Neither do we, but if NO ONE will do the work, we have no choice. My suggestion is to bring this up at the annual meeting which will be next week. And IF we can get 2 people to volunteer for the board (we will help too if others will) and we can get rid of the MC. Our dues are only $375 per year and 4 homes won't even pay that. We have liens on them but no action and the MC keeps saying it's "cost prohibitive" to do anything else to collect. It's so frustrating to try to take care of a bunch of people who just complain but will not do anything. And refuse to pay bills so that the HOA can't pay bills. We recently had to get rid of the landscaper due to lack of funds. Now we're going to have to raise the dues again to cover the deadbeats and get back on track. We don't want to take all of the responsibility by ourselves, so they can pay a MC to do it. Too bad it hurts everyone.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MonicaN on 12/18/2009 11:48 AM
I live in a neighborhood with 24 homes in the association. A few years ago I was voted President, but after about a year resigned due to difficulty with other board members. Last year my husband went to our annual meeting (I couldn't make it due to my work) and he was one of only 2 homes who showed up. The previous board had all resigned AGAIN so he was roped into becoming the treasurer and the one other attendee became the president. There currently is no VP because no one else will volunteer. We have 4 homes that are seriously in arrears on their dues. We've tried to get them to make payments, and they say ok, but never send any money. Now the assn is bankrupt and we have past due bills to the mgmt co, the city for lights, and the ins co. We've asked other homeowners to get on the board and help out and all of them want to disband the assn. But the mgmt co says we can't because there is a neighborhood park. My husband is tired of being the only person who will do anything and doesn't want to be legally liable as the treasurer so he is resigning. I think the president will likely resign too. He won't even return our calls and emails. He asked the mgmt co to just raise dues and not even have an annual meeting. What happens if no one will volunteer for the board? Is there a way to disband it? Would some public agency take it over?

Even if it is possible to disband the HOA it would require the assistance of an attorney and his fees. In addition to the requrements in your docs I am certain the lenders who hold mortgages would enter into the picture. If a court is asked to appoint a receiver would that cost exceed what you are paying the MC? Would there be an increase in property taxes, etc. What a can of worms. Good luck.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Well, it appears you have resolved your problems. Just everyone, including you and husband throw in the towel and say to hell with it. But please, don't even hint that you got that advice here. You are all adults, I would assume, it's your problem, you signed up for it and no matter what happens you all are likely to share blame equally, if you don't help yourselves, in whole or in part. Hire another M/C and maybe you will get lucky and they can straighten you all out, I don't know but you can run all you want but you are likely going to have to face the music some day. You said you and your husband will help, well, you can help yourself by helping and that is what I suggest you do.
Sad sentence and I suspect you will find supporters as you go along. You will not get thanks, you may very well keep you and hubby out of hot water if you try. You say you are going to have annual meeting. You get as many folks as you can at that meeting, you and hubby tell them what you write here, offer your help, ask for anyone else to help so they also can stay out of court, because that is where you all are headed, good with the bad.

Don't take my remarks as anything other than opinion, that is all it is. Hopefully, others will post also and maybe paint a rosier picture.
MonicaN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Personally I don't think we should disband the HOA. But I wanted to find out how that is even possible since amy in our neighborhood seems to think so. They don't believe us when we say we can't. Here's how I see the 2 scenarios going. Either 2 other people (and us) will volunteer to be on the board and run the HOA withOUT the MC, thus reducing all of our dues. OR, the MC is retained and dues go up to cover their cost and the budget shortages due to the 4 deadbeats. I don't feel that disbanding the HOA is really an option, but I wanted to find out what would happen if everyone else hides their heads in the sand and what would be the affect on us all. So I can inform them that it is not in their best interest to do so, and MAYBE they'll listen. Having the govt appoint a reciever to handle the neighborhood will not benefit anyone, I know that and won't let it happen, but I'm glad I got this info here. Thank you everyone. Because when we ask the MC what would happen, they don't give a straight answer. And now that they're only doing bill paying, they won't even come to our annual meeting. Likely their loss.
MonicaN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
One other question: Is it legal for us to send a notice to all HO with the names of the deadbeat HO who are not paying their dues and the amounts they owe? Maybe peer pressure and embarrassment will be an effective tool?
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
It sounds like you need a new MC. Does their contract opt for a 30 day out? If so, I would investigate other companies and make certain to read their contract(s) in full so you don't end up with another loser.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
This has been a quite informative thread and something popped into my head when reading the various comments.

Why can't Monica's HOA (as the organization and not as two private individuals) and its management company hire a legal team to force the issue of collecting dues?

If I was a dues paying member in good standing, you'd NEVER convince me of paying higher HOA fees on the basis that 4 properties refuse to pay and thus dare the HOA to do anything about it. Not forcing collections punishes the 75% of excellent dues payers because they pay up and their common areas "go down." Also, getting lawyers to chase deadbeats isn't being a "bad neighbor." It's fair and every property owner understands the rules (or should) when they sign their closing documents. Our HOA is reimbursed for legal fees associated with collecting on delinquent dues by the delinquent property owner. It's financially painful and should be.

Now, once the four properties pay up or get foreclosed on - at which point they'll pay the dues - it does sound like there is a cash flow problem that should be addressed but only after all properties up to date on dues payments to maintain common property that will affect everyone's property values and where its negligence, at stated above, could draw out companies seeking to protect their mortgages, collateral, etc.

Monica - your board should start taking action to collect on the four delinquent dues payers. Use your management company since you're paying for them. If the majority of your neighbors simply want to pay their dues have someone else handle the HOA affairs, then try to keep professional representation. Also, make sure your covenants allow the HOA to operate without a property manager. My HOA is required to maintain professional property management.

I do admit this line of thinking requires a little thicker skin than customary but if we're talking about my home value.........
HB (Oregon)
Posts: 143
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MonicaN on 12/20/2009 12:04 PM
Personally I don't think we should disband the HOA. But I wanted to find out how that is even possible since amy in our neighborhood seems to think so. They don't believe us when we say we can't. Here's how I see the 2 scenarios going. Either 2 other people (and us) will volunteer to be on the board and run the HOA withOUT the MC, thus reducing all of our dues. OR, the MC is retained and dues go up to cover their cost and the budget shortages due to the 4 deadbeats. I don't feel that disbanding the HOA is really an option, but I wanted to find out what would happen if everyone else hides their heads in the sand and what would be the affect on us all. So I can inform them that it is not in their best interest to do so, and MAYBE they'll listen. Having the govt appoint a reciever to handle the neighborhood will not benefit anyone, I know that and won't let it happen, but I'm glad I got this info here. Thank you everyone. Because when we ask the MC what would happen, they don't give a straight answer. And now that they're only doing bill paying, they won't even come to our annual meeting. Likely their loss.

We had one neighbor who immediately asked to disband the HOA when he bought a house in our neighborhood (I am talking within a month). I told him one thing: You find a way to do it and show up to a meeting with your documentation and support from a majority of the neighborhood and we will look at it.

Yeah, that never happened.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
HB,
The proliferation of HOA's and condos. simple from the law of averages, would seem to indicate that there are HOA's that should not be Hoa's.

Got any idea how you determine who should and who should not be HOA's. It could be and I am pretty sure is to the developers advantage if he can establish an Hoa. But once done, I imagine he has no vested interest if the association fails or prospers, other than good press. In general, I am sure there are exceptions.
MonicaN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
We agree that the deadbeats should be pursued. And I don't have a problem being the "bad guy" who does it. But the problem is that with a bankrupt HOA we don't have the money/cashflow to hire a lawyer in the first place. Of course, once a judgement is obtained the delinquent HO would have to pay for attorney fees, but that will likely take a long time to get a judgement and even longer to foreclose to get payment. I have already suggested that we pursue this, even thought the MC keeps telling us we can't because it's "cost prohibitive." (Obviously they want their money first, rather than giving it to a lawyer.) But my goal would be to find a hungry attorney who will take the case on a contingency to get paid later. That's likely a tall order, but I'm going to try, so that these deadbeats don't get away with paying nothing until they sell their homes. (which is obviously what they think they can wait for.) In the meantime, likely we'll have to up the dues to get cashflow going again. Then later when we finally collect on the 4 delinquents, we can reduce them again. Hopefully. Very few people are in the selling mood due to the real estate market, so I think they're being very short sighted in regard to their home values. But we will get it done, no matter what. Thanks.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 12/20/2009 3:33 PM
HB,
The proliferation of HOA's and condos. simple from the law of averages, would seem to indicate that there are HOA's that should not be Hoa's.

Got any idea how you determine who should and who should not be HOA's. It could be and I am pretty sure is to the developers advantage if he can establish an Hoa. But once done, I imagine he has no vested interest if the association fails or prospers, other than good press. In general, I am sure there are exceptions.

Robert in a lot of cases except for condos which by their very nature would require some form of an HOA; the city / county forces the developers to form HOA's as a condition to allowing them to develop the land. They do this because the local tax base can't / won't support the development.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Monica your question of publishing the names of the delinquents in order to shame them into paying has been discussed here many times and the general consensus is that it's a bad idea. If it is allowed by your documents and WA state law I would not identify the deadbeats by name instead you can say lot 345 is in arrears.

What we did is find an attorney who specializes in collections, he adds all his fees to the delinquent account and when he collects he gets paid. But before you do that, a legal BOD needs to prepare a written collection policy (the attorney will probably help for a small fee) that follows your documents and WA law; for instance some states require the delinquent dues to reach a minimum dollar amount or time before a property can be foreclosed on. This policy needs to be given to all homeowners and followed so that they know what will happen when if they don't pay. You can't just make it up as you go unless you as an interested homeowner want to take the non-payers to small claims court. Check local listings but in some jurisdictions an attorney is required to represent a corporation even in small claims matters.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
HB,

Way to go. I've always believed if a homeowner comes to the board with a problem they should also come with a solution.
HB (Oregon)
Posts: 143
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EllenS1 on 12/21/2009 5:17 AM
HB,

Way to go. I've always believed if a homeowner comes to the board with a problem they should also come with a solution.

We only have 3 Board members and there is absolutely no interest from the 80+ houses in our neighborhood to become involved. There is only so much we have time to accomplish each month, so if someone has a request (ie. how do we disband the HOA, or can we get a garbage can in the park) we try to encourage that person to help find a solution. We will always look at an issue, discuss it and come to a decision, but as a homeowner, they better be ready to pony up their time to help out if they want it to happen.
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
We have always had better luck with Lawyers for collection accounts, however, there are some collection agencies that will take these types of accounts on contingency -- but you have to babysit the agency to make sure they are doing their work.

What's the requirement for issuing a special assessment in your community? You might want to consider sending out some kind of notice to the community that if delinquencies exceed such-and-such a percentage by such-and-such a date, a special assessment may be voted on by the board and charged to all homeowners to acquire the legal funds necessary to pursue these delinquent accounts.

Typically, the legal fees are re-imbursed by the delinquent home when they come current. Maybe, once reimbursed, this money could be used to offset future dues or held in a special account for the next year if collections are necessary ... that way homeowners know they need to pay or the HOA will act. In a community as small as yours, it's really not fair to have that many homeowners "opt out" of their responsibility.
DavidS36 (Nevada)
Posts: 20
Posted:
Monica: As to homeowners not paying dues. As stated before, make sure the BOD and MC documents and publishes a collection policy to each homeowner. Then be sure to follow the policy and document any and all communications with the homeowner regarding dues. A lien for dues is effective when properties are turned over often, but a collection agent is best for static communities. In my state, the HOA is allowed to charge interest on overdue accounts (which might offset collection agencies' fees). Keep good records of all current and past-due accounts, but because of privacy laws, I suspect that publishing the list would be a bad idea.

Good Luck!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Welcome aboard DavidS,
Good advice and well thought out post.

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