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AnnieB (Washington)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Our declarations are not specific about this. Late every fall, we remind our homeowners (mostly townhomes) to winterize the water lines leading to outdoor faucets. Each year we get calls for the plumber to fix frozen pipes. Since part of the plumbing is in the garage itself and some is within the garage walls, there is further confusion. Negligence is mentioned in our declarations, but how do you prove negligence? Or, should we tell these homeowners that the cost for the plumber is their responsibility and they need to prove it is not negligence? How has anyone else handled problems like this? Thanks! Annie
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Annie, this is a current problem with a townhome association we manage. You are correct there is a difficulty with proving negligence. We recommended amending and restating their 30+ year old Declaration of CC&Rs with one change being to provide more details on the maintenance responsibilities of the association and the owner. Following is the proposal under consideration by the association. See 8.2(d.

ARTICLE VIII - MAINTENANCE RESPONSIBILITIES
Section 8.1 Association Maintenance.
In addition to maintenance upon the Common Area, the Association shall provide exterior maintenance upon each Lot as follows:
(a) Maintenance, repair and replacement of the Lots and homes thereon as follows: the exterior building surfaces (siding and trim but not including replacement of glass, windows, doors, window frames, and door frames), roof, gutters and downspouts, decks, fences, skylights installed by the original builder, security lights controlled by a photocell that is located outside of the home; and common sewer lines between the sewer line to each individual Lot and the main sewer line.
(b) Painting (only) of the garage doors; and
(c) Maintenance and repair of the interiors of the homes only to the extent needed to repair damage caused by the Association’s negligent performance of its maintenance duties as specifically set forth in the Association’s governing documents.

Section 8.2 Owner Maintenance.
Except as set forth in Section 8.1 herein above, the Owners shall be responsible for all maintenance repair and replacement of the Lots and the homes and improvements thereon, including but not limited to the following:
(a) the structure and foundation of the homes and all interior components of the homes;
(b) All doors, windows, and glass including screen doors and windows, security doors and windows, front, rear and side doors, garage doors, door frames, window frames, and seals;
(c) Additions to the Lot and adjacent to the Lot that were installed by an owner;
(d) All facilities which extend outside the Unit, including but not limited to, exterior water faucets, electric lights, electric receptacles, sump pumps, and private sewer lines; and
(e) All items that are the Association’s responsibility if the need for maintenance or repair is caused by the negligent acts or omissions of an Owner, their family, tenants, residents or invitees.

Section 8.3 Owner’s Negligence.
In the event that the need for maintenance or repair is caused through the willful or negligent act or omission of the Owner, an Owner’s family, guests, or invitees, the cost of such maintenance or repairs shall be a Default Assessment to such Owner and such Owner’s Lot.
DennisT (Ohio)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Oh boy Annie are you bringing up memories. We had this exact problem at my place just as I was joining the board. In this case the water lines ran through the dwelling units themselves. Everybody with a water shutoff gets a notice in early November reminding them to turn the water off. There was an older resident that would randomly go live with relatives down the street for weeks at a time without telling anyone. Well come mid January when we had a two week spell where temperatures never exceeded five degrees her furnace quit. She wasn't there to notice it. You can guess what happened next, eventually the pipe let loose and that was all she wrote.

She kept hemming and hawing on which contractor she wanted to do the repairs until finally the city building inspector declared her unit to be inhabitable. At that point the Association hired a contractor to do the work and billed her for it. We claimed negligence and she didn't contest it. Our case was bolstered by the fact that the line burst in three places including over a bedroom. We also had copies of the turn off notices that she'd been sent each fall in the six years she'd lived there.

I'm a firm believer that the best defense is a good offense. Going forward we strengthened our policy with respect to these spigots. Owners are sent letters in November telling them that the spigots need to be turned off until April 1st. Two weeks later the maintenance crew makes sure that each spigot is off. If it's not, they knock on the door and offer to do it for the owner. Assuming no answer the owner gets a daily call from the management company and a letter warning that on such and such date and time the association will exercise its right under the CC&Rs to enter the unit for necessary utility work. The letter states that they will be billed for the cost of a locksmith plus the service call (usually close to $150).

During the winter the maintenance guys will do spot checks when they are out and about. From the time this policy went into effect until I left we never got to the point of having to enter a unit and we never had another freeze. Given the procedure and the multiple checkpoints if a pipe were to burst it would be pretty obvious that it was due to owner negligence and there wouldn't be much to debate. Proving negligence is a matter of proving that an owner did (or did not) do what a reasonable owner would not (or would) do in the same circumstances. If we have 22 spigots on the property and they're all in compliance with our written policy on December 15th but then one guy turns his back on in February and it bursts it's pretty obvious that the owner did something unreasonable.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Annie,

Who pays for the water bills? I ask this because if it's each individual unit, then if the break is after the meter, the owner pays. If it's before the meter the Association or Water company pays.

If the water is paid by the Association, I would establish a clear policy as to where the point of debarkation is for responsibility. Perhaps, if the pipes are on the unit's property responsibility is the owners.

Hope this helps,

Tim
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
AnnieB;

<<<"Since part of the plumbing is in the garage itself and some is within the garage walls, there is further confusion. Negligence is mentioned in our declarations, but how do you prove negligence?">>>

The only negligence is by the idiot who installed water piping through the walls of an unheated garage (or any other unheated space).
(heat trace tape is notoriously unreliable due to the possibility of power outages)

There are outside hose fittings which will not freeze even when the water is still on .... the water supply piping should NEVER freeze unless the structure's heating unit fails.
(Woodruff is one of many brands)

Temperature sensors with auto telephone dialing are about $75 each ... installation consists of inserting a battery, programming # to be called, and plugging in the phone wire.

.... I'm a retired master plumber originally from NY State
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
We also send an announcement every year in December - along with the snow removal policy, upcoming year's annual budget and payment coupons. In case something isn't read, we publish reminders in our December and January newsletters. We're also a townhome community and tell homeowners if damage from their frozen pipe subsequently damages adjoining units, they'll also be responsible for the Association's insurance deductible (currently $5K)

On a related question, does anyone know how to get a map or something showing where sewer/water lines are for a neighborhood? Our CCRs state utility lines are the homeowner's responsibility from the point they enter the unit. For water and sewer lines, the Association is responsible from the point it leaves to when it hits the city's main line. We've also had sporadic problems with frozen pipes and tree root damage, and it seems to me if we had something definitive that can show where the lines are, this may reduce some confusion over who's responsible for what.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
DennisT;

<<<"I'm a firm believer that the best defense is a good offense. Going forward we strengthened our policy with respect to these spigots. Owners are sent letters in November telling them that the spigots need to be turned off until April 1st. Two weeks later the maintenance crew makes sure that each spigot is off. If it's not, they knock on the door and offer to do it for the owner.">>>

The spigots need to be turned off with an interior valve and then opened and drained OR THEY WILL STILL FREEZE.

?Ain't improper installation a b%*#h?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 12/16/2009 10:33 AM

On a related question, does anyone know how to get a map or something showing where sewer/water lines are for a neighborhood? Our CCRs state utility lines are the homeowner's responsibility from the point they enter the unit. For water and sewer lines, the Association is responsible from the point it leaves to when it hits the city's main line. We've also had sporadic problems with frozen pipes and tree root damage, and it seems to me if we had something definitive that can show where the lines are, this may reduce some confusion over who's responsible for what.

I would suggest contacting your local utility. That's why in our locality it's required to contact a special number whenever someone wants to locate underground utilities, or even plant a tree.

It's called "Call B.U.D" (call before you dig) and there's a number.

Here's some info from their site: (Your locality may have something similar)

WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW

Why do I need to call Kentucky 811


In compliance with the Kentucky Dig Law, any activity that results in the movement, placement, probing, boring, or removal of earth, rock, or other material in or on the ground requires the excavator to contact the One Call Center with adequate information regarding the dig. Remember…It’s The Law!!!

When can I call

Kentucky 811 is open 7 days a week, 24 hours a day to process locate requests or address questions regarding a locate request. The toll free number is 800-752-6007 or 811 (the National Three Digit Call Before You Dig phone number).

http://www.kentucky811.org/know.php

In addition, for private utility lines or private property locations, there's also a list of contract locators.

Private lines / Private property locates

In an effort to assist homeowners and contractors in locating private service lines that the utilities do not own or mark, Kentucky 811 is providing a list of contract locators that can be hired to locate private service lines for you.

Pinpoint Utility Protection Ray Olson 502-693-7844

Lanceta & Associates Inc Troy Cottner 502-664-8787

Blood Hound Underground Utility Locators 888-858-9830 (for Louisville, Lexington & Northern KY)

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
I'd like to be able to help you out here but I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry. LOL
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
On a related question, does anyone know how to get a map or something showing where sewer/water lines are for a neighborhood?

Start at the town hall. Ask them.
DennisT (Ohio)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 12/16/2009 2:47 PM
DennisT;

The spigots need to be turned off with an interior valve and then opened and drained OR THEY WILL STILL FREEZE.

John:

How else do you think the maintenance crew can tell if the water supply is off other than by opening it up?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DennisT on 12/17/2009 11:16 AM
Posted By JohnB26 on 12/16/2009 2:47 PM
DennisT;

The spigots need to be turned off with an interior valve and then opened and drained OR THEY WILL STILL FREEZE.

John:

How else do you think the maintenance crew can tell if the water supply is off other than by opening it up?

The actual spigot/hose bibb/'cock' should be LEFT OPEN (and 'flagged') not opened to be checked .... the shut off may leak slightly thereby refilling the drained spigot line.

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