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DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Forgive me, I'm kind of new at this, and would appreciate any insight you more experience folks have.

What happens if a HO requests something that is not specifically permitted or disallowed by the CCRs or Rules and Regs? For example, our governing documents make no provisions for trampolines. If a HO submitted an Alt/Mod for a trampoline would the BOD be able to restrict it? Conversely, what would happen if the BOD wanted someone to remove an already existing trampoline?

There seem to be several vague clauses in our documents granting the BOD some authority, but would they be enough? The strongest of which, I think is (assuming the Developer's rights automatically transferred to the BOD at the end of the Dev and Sales Period):

Architectural Control. No building, structure or other improvement shall be constructed within a Condominium Unit or elsewhere within the Condominium Project, nor shall any material exterior modification be made to any existing buildings, structure or improvement, unless plans and specifications therefor, containing such detail as the Developer may reasonably request, have first been approved in writing by the Developer. Construction of any building or other improvements must also receive any necessary approvals from the local public authority. Developer shall have the right to refuse to approve any such plans, specifications, location of buildings, grading, or landscaping plans, which are not suitable or desirable in its opinion for aesthetic or other reasons; and in passing upon such plans and specifications it shall have the right to take into consideration the suitability of the proposed structure, improvement or modification, the site upon which it is proposed to be constructed and the degree of harmony thereof with the Condominium as a whole.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
There is no way bylaws or other documents could list everything, so something like a trampoline would fall under "Structure."

The Board's job is to take its "laws" and explain, update, or expand definitions for current situations. These outdoor tramplines are somewhat recent. Skateboard ramps and jet ski trailers are also new on the scene.

It's all about communicating with the Membership.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
If your documents do not specifically address trampolines, or other temporary playground or play structures, then there is no reason for a homeowner to submit an approval for one and, if a homeowner sends one in anyway, the Arch Committee should just return it and let the homeowner know that the covenants do not restrict or require approvals for trampolines.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Dee,

I read nothing in there that could be applied to any outdoor recreation equipment. Basketball hoops, above ground pools, tents and trampolines. There is nothing that the Board could use to adapt it either..

BUT!! you are a condominimum. Is there areas that the unit owner owns specifically to their unit where a trampoline could sit? Condos usually do not have owner area other than common area.

How about noise restrictions?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Dee if I remember correctly you're in one of those hybrids, you own the home the COA owns everything outside the homes footprint. In that case the COA can restrict it because it's on common elements; I presume the COA is responsible to mow these areas so look under additions to the landscape.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
We are technically zoned Site Condo, which means we fall under condo acts, but in reality we are more like platted subs. We individually own our yards and homes (interior and exterior), but are deed restricted. We have some common area landscaping, but no clubhouse, etc.

No one has specifically asked about trampolines, but my concern, as Susan alluded to, is what happens when someone either puts up something questionable that is not specifically prohibited or applies to do something that is not prohibited. Can we require removal or tell them no if it's not specifically prohibited?

We have some other sweeping "harmonious" to the community clauses, but I don't know if those types of things hold up and was wondering what other's experiences were with that type of thing.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Dee,

You already have pointed out the concern that we are addressing here.--- "harmonious" to the community clauses, but I don't know if those types of things hold up "

Unless items are specifically addressed as being allowed or not allowed, that leaves approval to interpretation and is way to ambiguious. Everything needs to be spelled out. We have been addressing motorhomes here and that poster said that they were not mentioned, therfore they do not fall under enforcement. That is why, covenants can be strengthened in your rules, bylaws or thru amendments to be more specific.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Dee,

My Association tends to give the tie to the homeowner. If it's not prohibited and the neighbors do not object, as long as the trampoline is in the back yard, whats the harm?

The Board/ARB certainly has the right to disapprove it. The reasons for the disapproval should be within the current guidelines (not a future guideline).

When I served on my ARB, I kept pointing out that we had to keep personal taste out of the decision. The decision should be based on existing rules, concerns of neighbors and/or concerns to the appearance of the community. We also pretty much allowed anything to be in the back yard if it was below the height of the fence.

Hope this helps,

Tim
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Tim, how does the current ARB have the "right" to disapprove it, if trampolines and similar things are not even mentioned in the covenants?

It makes no difference how other homeowners "feel" about trampolines. If the covenants do not restrict them, then that is that.

If the association feels that they should be controlled, then the proper way to handle it is to create an amendment that specifically addresses temporary sporting equipment on lots.

By the way, it would be extremely reaching to describe a temporary piece of sporting equipment as a "structure" that is regulated by that covenant.

It seems very clear and could probably be successfully argued that the "structure" in that covenant addresses things that need to be "constructed," such as gazebos, decks, pergolas, etc.

Not temporary sporting equipment.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
By the way, the amendment process let everyone know exactly where the members of the association stand on such an item.

If the requisite majority approves or disapproves the amendment, then that is how the community feels about such things.

Until you have such an amendment, I do not believe you can deny anyone the ability to put up a trampoline.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Michele,

The trampoline would be deemed a structure - which is defined as "a thing constructed; a complex entity constructed of many parts". A trampoline is usually a large piece of equipment. Certainly larger than most and therefore could easily be determined as a structure. Since the homeowner submitted a request to put it up, I would expect that they are already of the opinion that the Association could approve/disapprove it.

Other homeowners may have valid concerns about it. Noise level is the first thing I thought of. Neighbors may have concerns over privacy (although that one might be unfounded). If access to the trampoline is not secure (fenced in) a concern of safety might be proper. How neighbors "feel" is not relevant. However, actual concerns should be heard and respected.

I agree with you that the proper way is to adopt a policy regarding various sporting equipment or other items. I understood the question to be that the homeowner had already requested the item.

If it was me, based on what I read here, I would approve it providing it was in the fenced back yard (addressing safety issues). If it was in the front yard or if the back yard was not fenced I would disapprove it siting aesthetics not in keeping with the colonial style of our development (if it was in the front) or safety if access to it was not controlled (unfenced back yard).

Tim

DennisT (Ohio)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Prior to living in our current house we lived in a condo where I served on the Board. Being a condo we had significantly more right to control the use of the common elements because once you stepped out your door you were standing in the common elements. With a HOA where owners have control over their own lots (within the limits of the rules and CC&Rs of course) it's a bit different.

I'm not a lawyer although I do legal research for a living. When I served on my Board, I got to attend legal seminars put on by the association attorney a few times a year. No matter what the topic was that night they always spent a bit of time talking about rule enforcement. Basically this situation came down to this: If the Declaration / CC&R is silent on an issue, the Board may be able to regulate it but such rules need to be tied to a specific objective.

Generally speaking in the United States if something is not made illegal it is by default, legal. The same principle applies to association rules. If there are no rules prohibiting something then it is permitted. So let's go back to the trampoline issue. What would the purpose be of having a trampoline rule? Is it because they are unsightly? If the neighbors on either side haven't complained and the owner puts it in the backyard it would be hard to justify prohibiting it on the grounds that it is unsightly because nobody would see it. Is the concern liability? Clearly if it's not on common property the association bears no responsibility for injuries. Is it a desire to keep yards from being cluttered with toys? Careful there because if you start regulating toys distinctly from other objects such as lawn mowers someone could allege that you are discriminating against children and hence violating the FHA.

In an effort to set rules that are flexible most documents have catch-all provisions that are purposely ambiguous as some others have already stated. The problem is by virtue of being ambiguous you invite challenges when you try to apply the rule to marginal cases. For example I don't know that I would consider a trampoline to be a temporary structure. When used in the context of housing, temporary structures are usually things like sheds, pole barns and the like.

The other problem you can come across with what goes on in someone's backyard is that property owners have a right to quiet enjoyment. This is particularly true when there's not a specific prohibition and you try to apply a catch-all. Let's assume it goes to court and the violator brings his neighbors to say that they don't have any problem with the trampoline. He then points out that the association doesn't prohibit hot tubs which are roughly the same size and arguably make more noise when being used. It's possible that a judge would say that although the association may be suffering in some theoretical sense the owner's right to quiet enjoyment overrides the ability to regulate what one can do in his own backyard with such specificity, particularly if the rule seems arbitrary.

In my opinion the previous poster who said that his association gives the tie to the property owner has it exactly right. Our lawyer used to tell us to communicate not litigate. If you don't have a rule, you're probably best not touching the issue. If you do have a rule or want to make one, be sure it's grounded in a concise objective for the betterment of the community.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Dennis,

Well Said.

Tim
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Yes, Dennis, well said.

Tim, I would challenge that it is a "structure."

Being complex (which trampolines are not) and "constructed," does not make something a "structure."

A temporary, moveable piece of sporting equipment is not a "structure." Only in the very loosest of terms.

One wouldn't even be able to deny a request to put up one of those temporary above-ground pools with this wording, if the covenants do not address above-ground pools anywhere else.

The homeowner's request should be returned with the note that the ARC at this time has no jurisdiction over temporary sporting equipment.

JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Actually, I think a case can be made regarding the Association's "jurisdiction" here, when the wording, as quoted, includes the phrase "other improvement". "Improvement" is a very broad term that could easily be interpreted to include the addtion or virtually anything.

Food for thought.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
John,

I hardly think an "improvement" would include a trampoline! However, if some think it may, then the board needs to adopt a rule to interpret the meaning of "improvement" and perhaps also "structure".
DennisT (Ohio)
Posts: 109
Posted:
I'd have to disagree that a trampoline is an "improvement." An improvement is typically something permanently affixed to the property that as a matter of course would be deeded to a new owner in the event of a sale. For example if you put a deck on your house that's an improvement and when you sell the house it goes with it. Likewise for a new roof. It would be a very rare case that a deck would not be part of the sale and the seller would remove it prior to the property changing hands.

If I put a $5,000 hand carved book case in the study of my house it's not an improvement unless it becomes part of the structure (e.g. by cutting into the walls). It's understood to be furniture which, upon sale of the property goes with me unless I agree to include it as part of the sale.

An improvement also usually has the potential of changing the taxable value of the property. If I put a deck up, the tax man could reevaluate my house and adjust its market value up at the next assessment. If there's a trampoline? Not so much.
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Mary -

I agree that the terminology "improvement" is vague and probably needs to be interpreted by rule by the BOD.

Just pointing out that very broad powers over change can, in fact, be the norm even in fee-simple (but attached dwelling) communities such as the one I live in where the owners actually own lots that extend beyond the footprint of their houses.

As an example, our CC&Rs, in the Architectural Standards section state:

"No exterior construction, alteration, addition or erection of any nature whatsoever shall be commenced or placed on any part of the Community .. .. .. .. "

In the definitions section of the documents, "Community" is defined as all individual lots as well as the common areas.

As such, even the simplest "alteration" to the original state of the property is forbidden without prior approval.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

I called my former Florida HOA's CC&R chairman to refresh my memory on trampolines. I wrote the dern guideline manual but age has made me forget what we wrote and had approved by the attorney.It is considered PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT just the same as swing sets and basketball hoops that are set in concrete.

Any trampoline that is either installed by having a dugout base or with a permanent hookup, tie downs in concrete or other permanent material is considered permanent and will need to apply for ARC approval. Trampolines that are stand alone, self supporting pieces of play equipement must be placed in the rear of the yard to insure that it is not viewable from the front of the units street. Trampolines are not to be installedany closer than 10 feet to the rear property line or within any easements.

We call them "Playground Equipment" It is not a structure of any kind.
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Thanks all for the very helpful info.

The HOs in the community are all under the impression that virtually any alteration to their home or yard requires approval -- I think we got that impression from the builder, so we do sometimes get requests for things that aren't already spelled out in the rules and sometimes things you probably would not to approve. I am just trying to get a feel for if we must approve something that's not specifically mentioned or if we still have grounds to deny ... catching on, though :-)

I think the developer used to use this clause as his "must submit an alt/mod" stick ... even if Homeowners wanted to install some shrubs or plants -- I'm not sure that's what was meant about landscaping, though.

The Developer shall establish an architectural review committee. Until construction plans and specifications are submitted to, and approved in writing by, the Developer and the Architectural Review Committee, (i) no Unit, building wall, or other structure or landscaping shall be commenced, erected or maintained, and (ii) no addition, change or alteration to any dwelling, other structure or landscaping shall be made, except for interior alterations.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Dee, I don't think that section applies to those temporary sporting equipment thingies, like trampolines, any more than it applies to lawn chairs, tables with umbrellas, or grills.

Unless you are building your grill into the side of your house. . . .

Dropping one of the trampolines on your yard is not a modification any more than setting up patio tables and chairs is. Sure, it's bigger, but it's still just a temporary, movable piece of sporting equipment.
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Sorry ... I didn't mean to imply that it would ... was just showing what the builder used and why people think EVERYTHING needs to be approved -- not that they actually submit requests for EVERYTHING ... they just complain that they are supposed to.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Ah, gotchya.

Oh, by the way, as someone upthread noted, if the trampoline needs to be embedded in a concrete footing of any kind, that moves it out of the "temporary, movable" piece of sporting equipment venue and moves it much closer to the structure/modification that may need to have prior approval.

I had not ever heard of such a trampoline, but if one like that exists, and someone wants to install it, it would then become a permanent alteration to the lot.

In my opinion.

Otherwise, it's no different than lawn tables and chairs, in my opinion.

People don't have to get approvals for putting those sort of things in their yards, do they?
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Okay ... thanks for working with my learning curve on the rule thing ... let me take the inquiry a step further ...

If we have no rule in the CCRs or Rules and Regs against sheds and a HO installed one about a year and a half ago without approval, but was never sent a violation notice, if the association appropriately adopted an amendment not to permit detached storage, could this HO be required to remove it? Our bylaws have the standard Non-Waiver of Rights clause for enforcement.

And does it matter if, as in the above case, the HO would have a "loss of investment" versus a situation where a HO would no only lose the investment, but may have to incur additional cost to correct the infraction ... say if a HO installed wood-framed windows without approval and a new amendment was passed that allowed only vinyl windows ... would they have to remove/replace?

I suspect the option of grandfathering would exist, but would the BOD be required to?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Basically, if an amendment restricts things that have not been restricted in the past, then it only applies in a "going forward" format.

The people with existing sheds or now incorrect window frames would not have to remove/replace them, UNTIL they would be needing to repair or replace them.

It's called "grandfathering."

MOST of the time, amendments are NOT retroactive.
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
That seems to be different from what many have offered regarding something like RV parking and such. If I bought the home when RVs were allowed (and I owned an RV) and the rule was changed, I wouldn't be allowed to park the RV. What makes the distinction between the two types of scenarios?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
You are talking apples and oranges.

A structure or an alteration to someone's home is a far cry from a situational event or an ACTIVITY like parking.

If the documents allowed (or specifically did not restrict) RV parking before, then a change to them affects all parking. Parking is an activity and not a structural or physical change to the lot or structures on the lots.

RVs can be moved and they can be stored. Parking is an ACTIVITY.

Sheds, fences, windows, not so much.

Activities are not "grandfathered."

DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Got 'cha

With a "grandfather" on the examples above ... would they typically be until the item required replacement or would it be until title transfer?
DeeS1 (Michigan)
Posts: 223
Posted:
Oops ... one more thing ... it makes no difference that these items were never approved?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeeS1 on 11/18/2009 4:37 PM
Oops ... one more thing ... it makes no difference that these items were never approved?

Well, that's a whole 'nother question.

But to answer the one just above this, no, a new owner would NOT have to "correct" (or remove) the sheds or fencing or doors or windows that became out-of-compliance due to an amendment change.

It would not be until the items needed either repair and/or modification. In the case of a shed, you're probably looking at it pretty much staying forever. If it reaches the point where it has degraded enough to be removed, then the owner will not be able to replace it.

Of course, I talking about items that were not addressed or restricted previously, but an amendment was made to specifically restrict or control them.

Back to your "never approved" thing.

I'm a bit concerned, though, about your HO who installed a shed last year that was not approved.

While your documents do not specifically address sheds, doesn't it address any structures or modifications/alterations to the lot? Doesn't anything that falls into that category, whether specifically listed, like a "shed" or a "fence," require approval?

If the homeowner did not obtain approval, then it is not allowed.

The homeowner must submit the request forms and the ARC committee CAN enforce current specification requirements/restrictions against it, or it must be removed.

DennisT (Ohio)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Just to add a bit to the "going forward" thing. Several years ago we adopted an amendment prohibiting vicious dogs and exotic pets like snakes and rats from being harbored on the property. Our lawyer carefully crafted it so that all current animals could stay but once they were moved elsewhere or died they could not be replaced. It also required that anybody with such an animal had to send written notice to the association including two photographs of the animal (front and side) within 30 days of the amendment being recorded and given to all owners.

During that time nobody registered any animals so at the next board meeting the president's report made mention of this fact and it was recorded in the minutes. That way there could be no question about a given animal being grandfathered.

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