HOA making donation to a church!

Daryl,

I'm not that sure that it was a stupid decision. You need to look at your budget to see if and how the church hall was included as an expense to the HOA.If not,then you have had a free hall for a couple of years. That's a good thing.

To get cost estimates for renting another facility is sort of late in regards to the $200.00 donation. You've been there for 2 years already. For the future, yes look into other places but you probably will find the the $200.00 is quite a deal.

The owners wife did the correct thing by not voting. Good for her.

I think the $200 is a great deal for all the use they have allowed AND apparently they discussed it at a meeting, so anyone was welcome to comment on it at that time. Regardless of when the minutes are published it is already a done deal at that meeting.

I think this is a perfect example of why members who want to know what is going on and/or want to have a say need to attend meetings so they can speak up when it happens, not after.

I do agree that they could have made it "look" more above board, but that doesn't mean they did anything wrong.

They give us a whole hour or two notice of when the meetings are, so it's hard to drop everything to go to the meeting. Seriously, they put out an A board at the entrance to the community on meeting night and we find out about it when we get home from work. So it's not that easy to go to board meetings. We can call ahead to find out about the meeting ahead of time, but they can cancel or change it when ever they want. Easier said then done, but this issue has been raised.

As I said, I think $200 for a meeting place is fine, no problem. But all along the church has always said we could meet there free, which is why they have always met there, and on the meeting minutes it CLEARLY says it was a donation. If the chruch came out and said it'll be $20/meeting from this point forward I have no problem with that, but I'd hope the board would look at other options that may be better/cheaper. Board meetings could be at the park or at someone's house. Community meetings could be at the local pizza place which gives us their back room and 50% pizza at no extra charge. We don't need to pay it period, but to donate it is worse.

We have high HOA dues for what we get, more then 15% of the community has not paid dues this year, letters do not scare them and if that trend continues we run out of reserves at some point. $200 donation to anyone is not wise. Donation to a religious group which could anger some homeowners, even less wise.

Brian, are you being sarcastic? Keep in mind this is Washington state (google our history on holiday displays).

First, you are making assumptions. If the fire dept let us use their room and expected nothing in exchange I'd still be unhappy with the board giving them my money. And, I'd be unhappy about the board making a donation to any church, not just one owned by a board member. Bad assumptions.

Second, everyone loves the fire dept. You can't compare a donation to a church and a fire dept. I'd be unhappy if the board donated money to an athiest group, the NRA, a gun control lobby, acorn, planned parenthood, a muslum group, a jewish group, Ron Paul's campaign fine, Sarah Palin's fund... get the point?

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. . . . .

Your organization has used the resources of a neighbor (in this case a church) for years free of charge. Your organization has contributed to that neighbor's costs by consuming various resources (electricity/water, etc) and added to the wear and tear on the building. . . of a neighbor (which happens to be a church).

Now your organization wants to make a legitimate goodwill gesture, acknowledging the free use and consumption of the neighbor's resources with a pittance of a "donation."

And you complain?

To be frank, it wouldn't matter if that neighbor WERE an "atheist" organization (which I take personal offense to. What's wrong with being atheist?!), or a fire station, or a building owned by some political group or another.

The fact is, your organization got something for nothing, and even created wear and tear on that "something."

And it's not "your" money anymore. It's the organization's money. Which you have given specific individuals the right to disperse in ways they deem (and vote) proper.

My advice? Get over it. It really is a molehill, so that should be a pretty easy step to take.

So call it "Rent."

If people don't like that church, then why not simply tell the board they can't meet there? It's okay as long as the organization can consumer the church's resources for FREE, but for the organization to, out of good faith and good will, offer them some money to offset their use. . . . wow, talk about double standards.

Call it whatever makes you happy. Call it an offset. They called it a "donation," to indicate that it's not a required or mandatory payment. I still say whoever doesn't "like" the church just needs to get over the money that went to it.

And I'm still getting peeved at your attempt to disparage atheists, and now the NRA. Some people don't like to read, either, so it's a good thing the HOA didn't use a library. . . .

And it is no longer your money when you make out the check to the HOA and send it on its way.

It is the organization's money. You have elected the board to handle the administrative functions of that organization.

Not directed at you personally, DarylF...

Some people will just never be happy...

Meet at a free location, with tables, chairs, light, then the HOA decides to offer a pittance to offset the cost (being a good neighbor)...people are unhappy.

Meet at an owner's house, with allergens, kids, taking shoes off?, alcohol consumption, cliques, not feeling welcome...people are unhappy.

Meet at the local park??? For real (wind, bugs, sun, rain, allergens)??? Not even a real possibility.

Meet at the local pizza parlor (if the restaurant will let you use one of their "banquet" rooms)...noise, smells, smoke?...people are unhappy.

Call this thing a donation...send out a newsletter article...Do what you need to do, but this is seriously a mountain out of a molehill.

Daryl...why don't you call some conference centers, Kinkos-Office, restaurants with banquet rooms... I can virtually GUARANTEE you...once you present members/owners with the hard numbers, they will SHUT UP about meeting in a free location. I mean, seriously, your BOD doesn't require people to kneel at the alter before the BOD meeting does it? Then tell them to just get over it!!!!

My HOA does meet at the local library, when the community rooms are available. Since we're a non-profit, we do NOT have to pay any room rental. However, since it's a FULL-SERVICE COMMUNITY OPTION for all local non-profits, we do NOT make any sort of donation to the library.

As I see it, your BOD is exercising its fiduciary responsibility on this one...maybe not so much on the 1-2 hour meeting notice...

Daryl,

Form a committee of the unhappy people and ask them to find a facility with a better deal that what the church already is giving your HOA. Make sure it is a comparable location with comparable amenities and that goes for cost as well. Sheesh! some people just have to look for something to bitch about.

Great idea! My thinking has always been "don't come to me with a problem unless you can offer a solution". This usually works.

Except that the Creation Museum is in Kentucky.

Yes. It really does promote the idea that humans roamed the earth with dinosaurs.

Personally, I would have found another charity the man favored to make the donation to.

But, whatever. The board voted. It's their call.

If someone doesn't like the way the Association money is spent, they can run for the board and be a part of the process.

Except in this case the developer is still in control and homeowners cannot run for the board. I stay as involved as possible by reviewing the monthly financial reports and attending all board and committee meetings.

Regards these sudden proclamations that declare, YOU MUST join the Ruling class if you want to change anything or object to anything. What, pray tell happens, if this were to be? There would be no membership as all would be management. There are lots of reasons people don't run for the Board. Not all are good, in fact most are not good. Consider apathy; that would mean nearly all the membership is slacking in their responsibility. If that is your reasons for non-involvement, you should be ashamed. However that is not all the membership.
We have lots of folks that post on this site seemed concerned about their HOA's and that doesn't mean because they are not on the Board they are no-goods.
Young people can't afford the time in many cases, don't have the knowledge to do the job well in others.

Everyone should help and protect their association.......no exceptions. But running for a management position is only one way to help skin the cat.

Please look out and see if you don't see lightening and hear thunder......careful.

Chances are that the church can't accept "rental fees" but can accept an honorarium such as the donation Daryl posted about. In the grand scheme of things this would be far, far down my list of things to worry and complain about.

Robert, don't jump to conclusions.

If you want to micro-manage what the board does or how and on what it votes to spend money, then you either:

1) become a board member

or

B) install like-minded individuals as board members.

Pick whichever one works best for you.

Otherwise, continue to moan and groan and complain and continue not being part of a solution, only a creaky wheel.

Doesn't really matter to me, just pointing out one's options.

Daryl,

You're getting hung up on words. The board called it a donation, which you don't like; but it would have been OK if they had called it rent. So refer to it as rent in your own mind and let it go. We all know the "reason" for the donation was NOT to donate to the church but rather to compensate them for their graciousness in allowing the board to use their meeting facilities at no charge. As I said earlier, if anyone complains about it, so be it. Members of HOAs complain all the time and board members should just get used to it!

Daryl,

Based on the analogy given earlier about making a donation to the fire department for use of their facilities, I do not believe that the act of giving the donation to the church for use of their facilities is unjust. However, I also believe that everyone could agree that because the building is owned by a member of the Board that a perception of conflict of interest could be created.

The best way to have avoided this perception would have been for the Association to have been charged a small fee for the use of the building from the start. That did not happen. Therefore, I believe that the best way to minimize this perception is for the Board to call various centers (the local fire house, the local school, other churches, etc.) to see what would be the rate to rent the facility and then disclose information to the membership along with a justification as to why they chose building x over building y.

I congratulate the Director who abstained from the vote because they were directly related to the affairs of the church. Hopefully, they also did not participate in the motion or the discussion about it.

As for the minutes being on a two month delay in being released to the membership, I believe that this is standard. The minutes would be taken one month and at the following months meeting would be amended as needed and approved. Other then annual membership meetings, I don't believe it would be smart to release draft minutes to the membership as a mistake could cause more issues that are easily avoided by waiting for them to be approved.

Tim

Robert,

You should have said that you've never heard any "thank yous" for posting the minutes quickly. People are quick to complain when something isn't done the way "They" think it should be done but always seem to forget to say thank you when they are pleased with the process.

IMO, if a member is so concerned to know what goes on in a board meeting they should make an effort to attend one. Demanding to see the minutes on their time frame doesn't sit too well with me. Most boards will approve the prior month's minutes at the current month's meeting. Then the minutes can be made available to the members. I would not recommend sending out minutes that have not been approved unless they are stamped "draft copy".

Side note: every once in a while I get an Email "thank you" card from an association member. It's one of those where they go to a free email card site and send it out to the board members.

Little things like that go a long way to helping mitigate dealing with that one or two homeowners who are, shall we say, not so nice!

Also for the record, Daryl, this is basically a forum for association leaders and volunteers. This wasn't designed as a place for non-board members to go complain about their boards. There are already numerous sites out there for that objective.

While many of us acknowledge there are bad news boards out there, for the most part, the ones that participate in this forum (and the majority of the boards from around my community of which I am in contact) are as well run or adequately managed as can be for volunteer organizations. Do they make mistakes? Sure. My board makes mistakes. *I* make mistakes, as a board member and in life in general. It happens. But often mistakes can serve as lessons, or at least as ways of identifying opportunities for improvement.

When a board is clearly off the tracks, I don't think a one of us is liable to stand behind the activities in any way. And we don't. We've lambasted many renegade boards and board members or officers here.

But one of the things that may often bleed into my posts is my response to the knack that many non-board posters here have of only stating one side of the story, and coloring it in such a way as to make their version appear above reproach and the HOA's activities to be nothing short of vile and despicable.

Generally, in almost all cases, the reality is somewhere in the middle. Many times what we see here from non-board association posters are people wanting to get an "Amen" on their rants about how nefarious and duplicitous their board is.

Because we have absolutely no way of knowing how legitimate and unbiased the material being presented is, it's not unreasonable that many of us will take the input with a HUGE grain of salt.

Also, I happen to be a non-theist. Not that anyone cares or that it particularly matters in any way, but I don't think one can get any more non-religious than that. With that in mind, even I, a wholly non-religious individual, think it's pretty absurd to get one's nose out of joint for the board providing the money to the church location where the meetings were held, whether they called it a "donation" (which MOST reasonable people should be more than mature and honest enough to understand what that means in this case), or whether they want to call it "meeting space offset," or any other innocuous label.

I DONATE TO THIS CHURCH AS I ALREADY SAID IN A POST IN THIS THREAD! Why would I be upset that the HOA donates to it? How many times did i post that i don't care about the donation?

Nice job assuming and great reading skills demonstrated. Very impressive.

second post

Daryl,
I am not sure what you are looking for but after posting here 4,500 times, I say you are off base and don't have enough knowledge to support your remarks. I am not a Board member and if you search my name you will find I enter into a lot of board critical discussion and frankly, don't consider the Board Position to endow anyone with super human HOA vision that allows one to run an HOA well. I say an HOA job has to be learned and just being one is not enough. If you want to keep posting Daryl and take the chip off your should you can find some vital information here. The folks that post here are effected by what you post and what they know. If you don't articulate a solid reason for dissent or do not explain the bases necessary for them to make a wise decision, they will tell you what they know, they are left with no other choice. What they say is not said to direct you to do or not to do, that is your choice, you would do well to listen. Notice I said listen, not follow, we give opinions only.

I think some of what was said in the replies to your last, have to be read from, "what do you have to learn." No one is picking on you any more than any other poster on this site. Certainly no more than I and I have been around a while. And all that stuff is irrelevant and not important. Who cares who I am or who you are? Present a problem with accurate information, do your best to keep out biased opinions and you will get a fair shake. Believe me the two that responded to you have been up and down your road hundreds of times, so have the rest of us. Did you ever ask yourself: "Why do these people post here?
For a good part they post here to learn about this monster, the HOA's, that engulf thousands of us each year with no end in sight.

Robert, your posts have always been valuable to me and I always looked forward to your replies on my questions.

Donna's last reply is a perfect example of what i'm talking about. Basically; I shouldn't be here, and clearly I must be lying.

NICE!

Alright,

This my last word on this. Daryl, this is from your post above which is what I based my statement on.

" I thought it was a bad decision by the board to open that door and I wish I could have at least given input on it "

I took this to mean that you were against the "donation"

Rent paid to use the church facilities - which this donation appears to be a goodwill gesture - seems okay because rent is always free.

But outside of this "gift," HOA's should not be voting to give donations to a charity unless dues payers get some benefit and a good price.

For instance, wreaths or pumpkins from a non-profit if the price beats competitors. Then again, that still seems murky.