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RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
There have been posts discussing the fact that the board of directors should prepare a manual of Plocies and Procedures for various topics. Lately I've seen a discussion or two pertaining to websites.

I know a mojor sponsor of this site provides association websites at an extremely affordable rate. In addition, they provide all the tools necessary to build and maintain such a website.

The fact still remains...how many associations have a plicy and procedure in written form? It doesn't really matter whether the website is hosted by the one supported by this site or iff it is hosted by another company.

The truth is that the website is an extension of the board of direcotrs and the association of homeowners. Is it possible to write a policy and procedure for websites that would prevent a rougue board memebr or homeowner from taking control of the association website?

Our website is set up so that two board members have access to change content. We have no limits or procedures in place to limit how the board member can change the content. We also have nothing in place as to how the website survives and grows if these two board members decide to move on.
hoatalk (California)
Posts: 603
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RickW on 10/11/2009 6:57 PM
It doesn't really matter whether the website is hosted by the one supported by this site or iff it is hosted by another company....
Is it possible to write a policy and procedure for websites that would prevent a rougue board memebr or homeowner from taking control of the association website?


It doesn't matter which company hosts it as long as they have the proper security options and controls in place and as long as the company is true HOA/Condo Website Service Provider. Why? Because, if a board member/volunteer hosts the site via a standard hosting company then the hosting company will have nothing to do with the site security since all they give you is a blank canvas and a single account password that anyone could change and take over the site.

With a full 'website service' like Community123.com, we give you a fully built website and ultimately we control the overall security. There is no way for one person to take over the site because we have ultimate control anyway and we report to the entire BOD.

What would Community123 do if one Editor started posting bad information or trying to take over the site? Any Board member could request that we remove that person's access and we would. In the event of a conflict among multiple board members and some emergency, we could lock down all access until resolution was reached via board vote (we've never had to do this).

Also ensure your site has good backups (normal hosting companies may not have them for you). REAL EXAMPLE: Editor deletes site info and quits.
We had a case where an Editor was a board member. He got mad at the board and resigned. He was also the main web editor so he went and deleted much of the content from the website too. After getting approval from other board members, Community123 revoked his editor access and restored the site from backups so nothing was lost.

You can see the benefit of having a HOA/Condo Website Provider give the association the site as a service vs. having a volunteer go and get standard web hosting. We work with the whole board, not just one site owner (as a hosting company would) AND we are able to protect the site for the board, unlike a normal hosting company.

So host your site with a professional HOA Website Service and don't let one volunteer ever have total control of the site. This is your best protection even without any formal policy.

After you get a professional service to run the site, then having a formal policy helps a bit, but it won't be 100% necessary if the service provider is good.


HOATalk.com, A free service of Community123.com
Provider of Upscale Community Websites
CLICK HERE to get a FREE trial community website
*See legal notice below (end of page)
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
Merely adopt "boilerplate" terms of service (TOS) to allow use of the website, specifically for discussion forums. Look at what newspapers do in controlling offensive speech. Most allow readers to flag any offensive post for review by the newspaper. Discourse should be civil. Trying to limit speech is fraught with problems. Who is qualified to censor speech?

Let the members sound off. If one or several members try to dominate the discussion forums, other members will turn them off and not read their posts.
The discussion forum is a classic example of a self-regulating "soap box".

But I would insist on one additional condition for owners associations: All posts must be identified by the name of the member, the same as would occur if the comment were made at a members' meeting.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonN on 10/15/2009 8:07 AM
Merely adopt "boilerplate" terms of service (TOS) to allow use of the website, specifically for discussion forums. Look at what newspapers do in controlling offensive speech. Most allow readers to flag any offensive post for review by the newspaper. Discourse should be civil. Trying to limit speech is fraught with problems. Who is qualified to censor speech?

And some sites police/moderate their discussion areas quite tightly, even WITH a TOS.

I disagree that "trying to limit speech is fraught with problems."

It's very easy to do. The "delete" option works very well.

No one is guaranteed "free speech" in the InterTubes.
MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432
Posted:
I have considered creating a privately-owned web site with (among other things) a forum for open discussion.

If I did so, I think my only policy would be that in the event of foul language or name-calling, I would delete the post and email a request to the author to find a better way to say it.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Don,

You asked: "Who is qualified to censor speech". I would simply say the moderator of the website. Usually there is a policy stated on the opening page of the website. If anyone violates the policy their message may be deleted. If they are continually abusive they may be banned from the site.
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
I believe owners associations would work much better with free speech. Consider Voltaire's famous quotation, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Speech with possible incorrect facts or unpopular challenges should be countered with additional speech. Readers can then decide. Disagreement leads to understanding. Peter Drucker, the management guru, is a strong advocate that decisions should not be made unless there is disagreement.

Please read the Famous Quotes about Freedom of Speech.

It is amazing to me how many people advocate censorship in one form or another.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonN on 10/17/2009 5:55 PM
I believe owners associations would work much better with free speech. Consider Voltaire's famous quotation, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Speech with possible incorrect facts or unpopular challenges should be countered with additional speech. Readers can then decide. Disagreement leads to understanding. Peter Drucker, the management guru, is a strong advocate that decisions should not be made unless there is disagreement.

Please read the Famous Quotes about Freedom of Speech.

It is amazing to me how many people advocate censorship in one form or another.

Nope. Not gonna fly in my world.

We had a discussion board on our website.

We had to shut it down.

If someone wants to exercise his or her "free speech" then he or she can either do it in person or through the U.S. mails. . . for whatever reason, neighbors get all hostile when they communicate in front of a screen. It seems looking into someone's eyes or having to take the time to write it down, find an envelope, buy and apply a stamp and then make one's way to a mailbox. . . seems to temper the tempers, so to speak.
MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432
Posted:
First of all (in case anyone is not clear on this) the principle of free speech, from a constitutional perspective, is only that it shall not be abridged by government. Any forum or medium can be created to provide a particular venue controlled by the owners. But everyone here seems to understand that already.

Secondly, moderation of open, public, anonymous forums seems to be necessary to keep them useful to the purpose for which they were created, especially on the internet. Otherwise they become inundated by SPAM, off-topic and juvenile crap and cease to exist in any meaningful way.

Private forums often fare better. For example, this forum (HOAtalk) requires registration and login. It is largely anonymous to posters, but not open or public. There is also a lot of self-moderation, with people insisting that others post in a manner they like (not necessarily based on explicit rules). I believe much of this is purposeful, helpful, well-reasoned, consistent, even-handed, well-intentioned and effective. Some of it, less so.

An HOA web site may be restricted to people who are acquainted with each other and are homeowners -- an upscale, relatively responsible demographic. It is much more likely that a forum in this context would be successfully self-regulated and require little to no intervention. People would tend to post rationally, would tend to start with the same context (and thus communicate more easily) and would tend to be discrete and careful when posting in front of their neighbors.

Therefore, I also believe owners associations would work much better with free and open speech. Again, my policy would be to remove clearly offensive items and invite the poster to find a better way to phrase them. If someone started inundating a discussion with SPAM, advertisements or off-topic comments, I might bar them for a while. I think any of these are unlikely, and I agree that poor reasoning and inaccurate information should be handled in the context of discussions.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
As I said before, people's homes, their turf, it's personal.

When one neighbor thinks another neighbor is infringing on him, or causing his "peace" to be disrupted, or doing something else that person doesn't like, it can spill over into an online forum and get to be a very hostile environment, regardless of attempts at moderation.

We removed our discussion forum due to extremely hostile and offensive posts and abusive behaviors, and it's not likely to be resurrected.

And yes, we are an upscale community. That doesn't necessarily mean that people in such communities are less irrational.

We didn't have the time or patience to continually moderate, and the discussions were not something we wanted the casual homeowner member to stumble upon. Those that did were quite taken aback. It reflected badly on the association.

And the hostility wasn't even directed at board members, except for the occasional rant when someone received a violation, which is always expected.

Sometimes neighbor feuds exist. It happens. And people get very bizarre when they are shielded from the direct and immediate feedback/impact of their words.

We have no regrets removing the discussion board option from our site.

If people have things to say to their neighbors, they can do it in person or by the U.S. mail.

Seems to work better that way sometimes.

The weirdest thing about it, our association has maybe fewer than 30 members who use the internet. Out of close to 600 residents.

It only takes a handful to cause disruption and chaos.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelK11 on 10/15/2009 9:12 AM
I have considered creating a privately-owned web site with (among other things) a forum for open discussion.

If I did so, I think my only policy would be that in the event of foul language or name-calling, I would delete the post and email a request to the author to find a better way to say it.

Any website posted other than the official site of the HOA should be clearly marked that it is not the official site of the HOA and that the content is not approved by the BOD.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonN on 10/17/2009 5:55 PM
I believe owners associations would work much better with free speech. Consider Voltaire's famous quotation, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Speech with possible incorrect facts or unpopular challenges should be countered with additional speech. Readers can then decide. Disagreement leads to understanding. Peter Drucker, the management guru, is a strong advocate that decisions should not be made unless there is disagreement.

Please read the Famous Quotes about Freedom of Speech.

It is amazing to me how many people advocate censorship in one form or another.

Don, I think the censorship everyone here is talking about is not censorship of ideas but censorship of language. We don't all agree on every matter, even here but we are adult enough for the most part to express our difference of opinion without resorting to foul and offensive language.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 10/17/2009 7:59 PM
Good point, but it already is:

"[HOA Name] is a [real nice community] in [location].
This is not the [HOA Name] web site!
The [HOA Name] Board's official HOA web site can be found at [URL link].
This is a privately-owned web site managed by and for homeowners in [HOA Name],
to increase communication among neighbors and within the community."

Unfortunately, I have not had time to do any more with the site than post the disclaimer, but it is front-and-center atop the public home page.
MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432
Posted:
Grr. Bungled the quote.
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 10/17/2009 7:59 PM
Any website posted other than the official site of the HOA should be clearly marked that it is not the official site of the HOA and that the content is not approved by the BOD.
Good point, but it already is:

"[HOA Name] is a [real nice community] in [location].
This is not the [HOA Name] web site!
The [HOA Name] Board's official HOA web site can be found at [URL link].
This is a privately-owned web site managed by and for homeowners in [HOA Name],
to increase communication among neighbors and within the community."

Unfortunately, I have not had time to do any more with the site than post the disclaimer; but that is writ large, front-and-center, atop the public home page.
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleD on 10/17/2009 7:53 PM
As I said before, people's homes, their turf, it's personal.

When one neighbor thinks another neighbor is infringing on him, or causing his "peace" to be disrupted, or doing something else that person doesn't like, it can spill over into an online forum and get to be a very hostile environment, regardless of attempts at moderation.

We removed our discussion forum due to extremely hostile and offensive posts and abusive behaviors, and it's not likely to be resurrected.

And yes, we are an upscale community. That doesn't necessarily mean that people in such communities are less irrational.

We didn't have the time or patience to continually moderate, and the discussions were not something we wanted the casual homeowner member to stumble upon. Those that did were quite taken aback. It reflected badly on the association.

And the hostility wasn't even directed at board members, except for the occasional rant when someone received a violation, which is always expected.

Sometimes neighbor feuds exist. It happens. And people get very bizarre when they are shielded from the direct and immediate feedback/impact of their words.

We have no regrets removing the discussion board option from our site.

If people have things to say to their neighbors, they can do it in person or by the U.S. mail.

Seems to work better that way sometimes.

The weirdest thing about it, our association has maybe fewer than 30 members who use the internet. Out of close to 600 residents.

It only takes a handful to cause disruption and chaos.

Michelle - I'm just curious, was the discussion board you discontinued anonymous? If so, perhaps that was part of the problem. If not, I'm surprised at how severe those posts became. I administer our HOA's website - we do have a discussion board that is not anonymous - and while we occasionally will get a "provocative" post, certainly nothing like you describe.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
John, "anonymous" doesn't always need to be "anonymous." In other words, one can always sign up to a website with a fake name with any number of the free email services available.

We use a free website, which limits our ability to "limit" people who register and join in the reindeer games. We have an option to either use a forum or disable that feature. Not much other flexibility with it, especially in terms of approving access.

And, as I mentioned, when you have a development where over 90% don't even use the internet, then the amount of maintenance time to invest in monitoring a discussion board that devolves into personal attacks, and worse (we had one poster who was posting pictures of poop and captioning it with his neighbor's name - how's that for "upscale" behavior!) it's just not worth it to us, so it's gone.

If we had a larger portion of our community who would actually use an online extension of the neighborhood, we would handle it differently, I'm sure. We would be able to have a much tighter approval/membership process.

JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Michele - thanks for explaining further. Yes, I understand the limitations of using a free service as you describe. For what it's worth our website sign-ups must be approved by the webmaster (e.g. me)which, given our limited community size (~ 100 homes)makes it very possible to, for all practical purposes, "verify" the new registrations.

Once that's done, our discusion forum automatically captures your first and last name and shows it as the author of the post (kinda like here, but with more authenticated sign ups).

Given your description of some of the previous posts, the general lack of a web using community, the tools you're working with, I certainly understand the decision to eliminate the forum.
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Thanks everyone for all of the replies. Once again, its clear that a policy that works for one HOA might not work for others.

I understand that typically every website will have posting guidelines and rules for forums.

I do not want to argue whether the forums should be moderated or not. Every frum I've been involved with is moderated for reasons stated in the posts above.

Now, given the forum will be moderated, how does the HOA set up who will be the moderator(s) and how does one put this in writing for the future, when different owners will be the board?
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Rick - Given that this will be the HOA's official website, the current BOD at any time will be responsible for determing website control. (Of course it would be possible to permanently codify the issue by amending your governing documents, but that certainly seems like overkill and isn't too likely to happen).

I would suggest that the Board establish a committee (either dedicated to the website issue, or more broadly to deal with HOA communications in general) to carry out the responsibilities. The BOD should establish the committee's charter and responsibilities.

This committee structure could allow for either change OR stability of the individuals responsible for the website somewhat independantly of changing Board members.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Of course, the BEST case scenario would be for the board to be moderated by an uninvolved third party.

But that would most likely involve fees.
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
Discussion of free speech always seems to be a lively issue. I expected a post from MichellD after my 10/15/2009 8:07 AM post above. Either speech is free or it is censored. Which is better?

Why is it that newspapers can manage free expression in their discussion forums and some boards of owners associations cannot? But many owners associations manage discussion forums very well. Is it that some boards can't stand the heat?

In my prior post, I emphasized the need for terms of service to prevent abuse, and the inclusion of a "Report Abuse" flag on every post. Below are copies of the instructions from two newspapers.

"Guidelines: Be kind. Abusive commentary may be removed. If you believe someone has been abusive, please click "Report Abuse"."

"USA TODAY welcomes your views and encourages lively -- but civil -- discussions. Comments are unedited, but submissions reported as abusive may be removed. By posting a comment, you affirm that you are 13 years of age or older."


If the board believes in openness, I submit that discussion forums will work very well. Any abuse can be addressed by the "Report Abuse" flag.

DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
An answer to MichaelK11's 10/17/2009 9:48 PM post that free speech is a government issue beyond the scope of a short reply. I wouldn't argue that point as applied to government, but I believe organizations work best when free speech is the norm. There are many commentators who refer to owners associations as "private government" or "quasi-governmental organizations". This arises from the mandatory membership requirement, regulation of some aspects of family living, the authority for fines, etc. What shareholder in a for-profit corporation is subject to those conditions? A requirement for owners associations based on democratic principles should be the subject for another thread.

There seems to be a high correlation between abridgment of speech and denial of access to records and abuse of closed (executive) board meetings. And that is not limited to owners associations.

States, such as Florida and Virginia, that have been active in addressing owners'/members' concerns with owners associations have revised their laws by requiring open meetings properly noticed and the equivalent of freedom of information. The Virginia POA Act requires:
"ยง55-510.2. Distribution of information by members.
The board of directors shall establish a reasonable, effective, and free method, appropriate to the size and nature of the association, for lot owners to communicate among themselves and with the board of directors regarding any matter concerning the association. "

Note that the provision does not allow the board to censor the information. It is obviously consistent with free speech.

Several commentators have observed that the common thread โ€” perhaps the "golden thread" โ€” in the reactive owners association legislation has been the adoption of democratic principles for owners associations.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonN on 10/23/2009 7:53 AM

Why is it that newspapers can manage free expression in their discussion forums and some boards of owners associations cannot? But many owners associations manage discussion forums very well. Is it that some boards can't stand the heat?

Two comments: First, newspapers can't manage free expression in their forums any better or worse than associations can.

I don't know any newspaper comment sections/forums that aren't tightly moderated. Many of them are constantly deleting posts and banning posters. Some don't allow any posts to be made public before an approval from a moderator or editor.

Some turn comments off of some articles completely.

So, there you go.

Second, I have no idea if some boards can stand the heat or not.

In our forum the "heat" was always applied to other neighbors and not the board.

The few people who used it were using it as their private battle grounds.

Because we couldn't babysit it every day, throughout the day, we just removed the feature.

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