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Frustrated Homeowner

Started by TrinaD • 32 replies • 2456 views

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TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:

Me and my husband bought our 1st house at the end of may 2009. Up until September we have received no contact from the home owners association and still have no way of contacting anyone not even to pay our dues. Mid September we received a letter from the homeowners association accounting firm telling us we were past due on our dues. When I called the accountant I voiced my frustration about not being notified or having contact information for the association. During this conversation she told me they held a special meeting that decided to raise our rates almost double, the weekend before which infuriated me because, I was never contacted about the meeting and the excuse she gave me was that they must have mailed the letter to the previous owners and it got forwarded. Apparently, no one who bought a house in the last four months had been notified of the meeting. She then informed me that the dues would go up again 10% more in January. She did not give me any way to contact anyone in the association but emailed the president requesting a copy of the bylaw be sent to me. This was over a week ago and I have not received them yet.
I began going door to door asking my neighbors about the meetings and found out that only eight people were present and all but one voted for the increase.
What frustrates me even more is:
Our subdivision is rural, with lagoons, deep creek that has grass taller than me, what they call a park (it consists of two picnic tables, slabs of randomly placed concrete, a broken basket ball hoop, and grass that often is 3ft tall before it is mowed), a nice brick wall that at one time had the additions name. The list goes on.
Is there anything I can do?
PS. Many other neighbors are frustrated also.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I realize you are frustrated and people often confuse the corporation that is the Homeowners Association with the Welcome Wagon. There's a misguided expectation that the association is some sort of social entity. It's not. It's a corporation that is managed by volunteer administrators generally to handle the day-to-day administrative and business functions of the corporation, such as paying bills, enforcing deed restrictions, approving Architectural requests, etc. In many HOAs a "Welcome Committee" is a luxury. And in most it's not even a standing committee in the covenants or by-laws.

Unless your HOA has such a committee (comprised of residents who volunteer to populate that committee) that does go out and welcome people to the neighborhood, then it's not likely that anyone from the board will do that.

While it's a "nice" thing to do, it's not really in the list of duties for board members.

And it's very likely that the HOA is not a participant in the sale of the homes. I think in some states an HOA is notified each time there is a sale, but in most that is not the case.

In our state, we only update our mailing list once a year and that is the month prior to the assigned date by which we must mail out the assessment invoices.

On a rare occasion a closing attorney will contact a board member seeking the payoff amount of a lien. At that point we take the opportunity to get the new owners names and update our list, but that is very rare when that happens.

That means that if we have mailings throughout the year that are going to previous owners, we generally won't know about it until we do our annual update (from the Property Valuation list in our County's tax roles), or unless we get a mailing returned. Even then, if we look up the new residents in the tax roles, there can be as long as a 6-month update delay in their office. It happens. There's not a lot we can do about it.

Also, there appears to be some confusion about the working hours of the members of the board.

Board members do not work for the corporation that is the HOA 9-to-5, 5 days a week. It's generally not a "full time" position.

It's a volunteer position that fellow residents in your development step forward to do by donating their time and talents to handle the administrative functions of the association, after being duly elected by other fellow residents. Most board members or directors probably have other full-time jobs. Some may even travel.

The point is, sometimes it might be a quick turn-around to send something like by-laws in responding to an email request, but other times it might not be something that gets handled for a few days. (Sometimes it may even take longer.)

Now, I don't know why the board members don't have a general accessible email address or phone number (we have a dedicated cell phone for our HOA and a dedicated email address. We rotate the cell phone responsibility every month and all board members receive a copy of any emails that go to the HOA email address, but other HOAs may not have a set up like that.)

After saying all of that, the one you should probably be most frustrated with is the closing attorney.

It would seem to me that at the closing the closing attorney would have provided you with your HOA covenants, the by-laws, the rate and schedule of whatever assessments exist and the mailing address for your association. By the way, you SHOULD be able to get that online from your Secretary of State's website. Do a search on your Association's name and all sorts of information should pop up, the names of the board members, the annual report, the mailing address and/or registered agent.

Hope this helps!
TammyS2 (Indiana)
Posts: 21
Posted:
Trina,

When we purchased our property, we asked the realtor to get us a copy of the bylaws, covenants and asked all about the dues. But welcome to the world of HOA's. When we moved into the association, nearly 4 years ago we experienced the same things. So, I took it upon myself when a home sold or sells, I call the real estate agent, find out who bought the property and then send the folks just a note to introduce myself and I also send them a copy of the covenants and bylaws. If you have time to do something like that, it would help others experience be somewhat more pleasant that yours.

Hope this helps.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
If you can afford it, you probably have a good case to block the latest actions of the HOA. Undoubtedly the governing documents require them to notify all owners. But there is a caveat. Such a suit will not only cost you the expense of the suit, it will probably cost you more in dues.

If you have the means, then you should try to balance the pros and cons. Perhaps a lawyer sending a nasty note to the Board can cause them to do their duty.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Kirk, really?

If the HOA can show that they mailed to the address, which they probably can and most likely did, then there's probably not a lot that can be done about blocking the action because of the "notice" thing.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Trina

Michele and Tammy gave some good background and advice... Your frustration should be directed heavily towards your realtor who sold you the home and/or the attorney handling the paperwork. they should have provided copies of the HOA information/by-laws/etc., or at least had information to give you on how/where you could obtain them. Unfortunately, your story is too common. HOA's are often forgotten or not mentioned until the flurry of paper signing, and then whizzed through as fast as possible to get to the more important stuff.

As for the HOA, it is a business, and you are a shareholder. Exercise your rights to vote. Volunteer to be on the board/groups/committees, and try to change from within. Ready your bylaws and CC&R's, and know them inside and out, better than the HOA officers. Offer to help, get things in writing, and politely force the board to do business the way the by laws state must be done. Knowledge is power. Being helpful is better than being an obstacle. Being involved and Voting is critical. Those three things can change an HOA.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Trina,

As Michele says, you cannot expect a 'welcome wagon' however you can expect to be notified of meetings and given info regarding your assessments. When you purchased your property you should have been given copies of all the governing documents and info regarding your assessments -- the amount and where the check is to be mailed. But, as a member you have resp. also. You moved in in May but haven't paid assessments because you didn't know where to send the check. So why didn't you contact the mgmt co in May instead of waiting until you received the past due notice? I know the BOD messed up but you didn't have to mess up too. BOD members have certain responsibilities but so do the members.

Now that you do have copy of the CCRs, I suggest you read them thoroughly. Know what the resp. and duties of the BOD are and if they are being negligent let them know. Also, check out state laws for HOAs as they also have to be abided by. Know what your rights are as a member. Is there an open meeting law which requires the board to notify the members of all meetings of the assn -- member meetings and board meetings? Know what can happen when you are delinquent in payment of your assessments and in violation of the CCRs. As Brian says, "knowledge is power".
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 10/08/2009 8:58 AM
Trina

Michele and Tammy gave some good background and advice... Your frustration should be directed heavily towards your realtor who sold you the home and/or the attorney handling the paperwork. they should have provided copies of the HOA information/by-laws/etc., or at least had information to give you on how/where you could obtain them. Unfortunately, your story is too common. HOA's are often forgotten or not mentioned until the flurry of paper signing, and then whizzed through as fast as possible to get to the more important stuff.

As for the HOA, it is a business, and you are a shareholder. Exercise your rights to vote. Volunteer to be on the board/groups/committees, and try to change from within. Ready your bylaws and CC&R's, and know them inside and out, better than the HOA officers. Offer to help, get things in writing, and politely force the board to do business the way the by laws state must be done. Knowledge is power. Being helpful is better than being an obstacle. Being involved and Voting is critical. Those three things can change an HOA.

This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time. Good comments, Brian.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Trina,

My wife and I purchased into an HOA in California last year. We ran into the same thing. On our closing statement, we paid two months of HOA fees, but water and sewer were not included, nor did we know that they were paid along with our dues. We got the same type of letter. Beforehand, we had tried through our RE Agent to get in contact with the PM or HOA. No phone calls were returned.

Until now, residents in this community have no idea who their BOD members are unless they attended last months meeting. They don't have a contact number, email address for either a specific board member or a general email address. We didn't have a website, until I built one two weeks ago. I plan on running for a board position in next month's elections and try to make changes from within.

One of the changes is having a welcoming committee that reaches out to new owners. I think it's a personal touch that is long overdue. There has to be a way for either the board or PM to get information from a title company or escrow once a buyer has clsoed a deal. How many homeowners, especially new ones, know exactly how an HOA is run and who do you go to when you have questions. Many HOA's that I have researched have gone the extra mile to communicate to their member/owners. I intend to impletement those same procedures here.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Richard,

Excellent post and I wish you well. It is unfortunate that so many closing agents and realtors don't represent a buyer once they get their commissions and fees paid. I'm sure with your input there will be some great improvements made in your HOA.
TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:
BrianB

I would like to be involved and beable to read through my bylaws and cc&r, but how can I obtain the matterials when I have not contact information for the association? The accountant was no use and at this point I have contacted the attorney that sent a notice to my husband and some other lady (they got my name completely wrong) who has failed to produce any information?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Trina

Copies of the CC&Rs and Bylaws SHOULD have been provided by your realtor/broker, real estate attorney, or the title company. If they were not (you should check all your final documents), you should contact them. I can't $ay you have a ca$e for $ueing them, but it'$ po$$ible in some juri$diction$.

Secondly, you can contact the management company, and ask them for copies.

thirdly, you can ask your neighbors to borrow theirs, and make copies. someone should have them

fourth, you can check with your county/state recorder. copies of both should be on file with the state, and available.
TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Mary

To answer your first question first of all at closing I was told it would be taken from escro and had been paying it their since I moved in. Since I received no bill until Sept. I did not know any different also I could not have contacted the mgmt co in may because as of today I still do not know who they are or how to. It has been over a week since I requested a coppy of the bylaws (throught the accountant, because I have not other contact info at the time) and still have had not contact from any BOD. I took this a step farther when the HOA Lawyer sent a not informing my husdand and some lady named sheila (that does not exist) that their HOA due are doubling in Nov. I called them expressed my problems with the HOA and asked for someway to contact the HOA so I could yet again request bylaws, finanicial statements, and any other information I can get. This still got me know where. What do you suggest now?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Trina:

I already made a suggestion.

Go to the Secretary of State's website and look up the name of the HOA. All relevant documents, including by-laws if they are supposed to be filed, will/should be there.

But it's really the deed covenants that you want, anyway. You can obtain THOSE from your county Deed Room.

It might cost a fee for copying (our county clerk charges $9.00, I think), but it should also include any amendments that were made over the years too.

OR you could go BACK to your realtor and make THEM track the deed restrictions down for you.

Again, the Secretary of State should also have a list of the board members AND a main contact office (registered agent, too).

I wouldn't rely on third parties to pass the information request along. It would probably be in your best interest to take these steps. After all, your home was a huge investment and these are documents you should have had at closing.

But that is not the HOA's fault that you don't have them.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
By the way, Trina, based on the comment about your getting a note from a lawyer addressed to your husband and someone named "Sheila," it appears that whatever information was provided to your HOA regarding the new owners (you guys) was obviously incorrect.

I don't know how it is incorrect, it could have been provided improperly, it could be an administrative error by anyone along the line.

But that might give you a clue as to why you haven't received anything before now.

Again, I can appreciate your frustration. It would be frustrating to me, too. But there's no need at this point to jump to the conclusion that the board is "bad" or somehow being nefarious or treating you badly.

There'll be plenty of time to come to that conclusion once you finally connect!



MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Michele,

I certainly would NOT say it's not the HOAs fault that Trina does not have copies of her HOA's gov. docs. I know every state has different laws and I don't know what her state laws say. However, in AZ it's the resp. of the BOD to provide thos docs to the title company. The realtor informs the title officer of the name of the HOA and the title officer in turn contacts the HOA. Sometimes the docs are presented at closing and sometimes they are mailed directly to the buyer. If you are purchasing a new home (new construction) the developer is required to give you copies of the CCRs for you to read before he can even allow you to sign a contract to purchase.
TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:
thats for the info. still having no luck with the secretary of state's website. I will try the court clerk
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Trina,

Not sure what you mean by saying you have been paying the assessment to escrow since you moved. It's not unusual to pay the first month's assessments as part of your closing costs but I don't know how you can continue to mail payments to the title company. I would think they would have returned the checks to you. But, if they didn't then you need to find out if the HOA received them and if they were correctly credited to your account.

I would suggest you do as Michele suggests: contact the Sec. of State's office to find out if info is on file for your HOA. In fact you may be able to do this online -- look for links to corporate information. If an annual report is required to be filed, the name of the statutory agent, including contact info, should be listed. This is the person you should contact. Also you may be able to sign on to the Co. recorder's website to look for a copy of your HOA's CCRs. Search under the name of your HOA. In AZ it would be found under recorded documents and the code would be "Prop Rstr" for "property restrictions for condo/subdiv". If you are unable to navigate the site you can call the recorder's office, tell them what you're looking for and they should be able to tell you exactly how to find it.

When you called the attorney's office were they unwilling to give you contact info for the HOA? Did you tell them that you don't know where to mail your assessments? Frankly, I find this all to be very strange!
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 10/09/2009 8:53 AM
Michele,

However, in AZ it's the resp. of the BOD to provide thos docs to the title company. The realtor informs the title officer of the name of the HOA and the title officer in turn contacts the HOA. Sometimes the docs are presented at closing and sometimes they are mailed directly to the buyer. If you are purchasing a new home (new construction) the developer is required to give you copies of the CCRs for you to read before he can even allow you to sign a contract to purchase.

It's been 3 years since I was in Arizona, but back then, this law applied to HOA's of a certain size, i believe. Smaller associations were exempted. This may have changed, I defer to Mary as the AZ law guru.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I agree, Mary, but, what if the HOA is not informed of the transaction?

If the sale goes through, and closing occurs and the HOA is not a part of the transaction . . .

From Trina's description that appears to be the case.

In fact, the only discussion at closing appears to have been about the assessments.

I agree, and mentioned up thread that HOA participation varies from state to state:

"And it's very likely that the HOA is not a participant in the sale of the homes. I think in some states an HOA is notified each time there is a sale, but in most that is not the case."

But it bears repeating.

(and I technically should have said "in many" instead of "in most." I don't know what the ratio of such a state requirement is, so saying "most" don't have one is probably not accurate.)
HB (Oregon)
Posts: 143
Posted:
Hi Trina,

Why not talk with a neighbor or two (who are involved) and ask for copies of the documents from them. It's never a bad thing to get to know your neighbors more and they can often be more helpful than just finding the documents through some state agency.

Our Board works off of an address list of homeowners, but unless we receive information of a sale or are updated when a mailing address changes we have no other way of knowing.

You can surely find out who is on your Board from a neighbor and ask them for help. Just make sure you reserve your anger until you know exactly how they operate and whether they did anything wrong. We send out notices of meetings and there are often only 2 or 3 people out of 83 homes at the meetings . . . the only meeting people really show up to are the annual meetings in our neighborhood.

We recently had to remove several large trees in our park area. We discussed it at several meetings and then the Board voted on it. During and after the meeting, some homeowners were asking why the trees were coming out and why they didn't know about it. There can be many reasons . . . did they attend the meetings, did they read the agenda on the meeting notice, does the Board have the wrong address?

In this case we followed our CC&R's and the law to the letter, but there were still many people who were out of the loop for various reasons.
TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:
They just said they would call me back and so far nothing! I feel like there is something going on that is not just!
TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I trying talking to almost all the neighbors on my street but no one has their information and all they told me was the name of one or two of the board mememers but no way to contact them. Several of them did not receive notice of the meeting that doubled the dues either.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TrinaD on 10/09/2009 10:55 AM
They just said they would call me back and so far nothing! I feel like there is something going on that is not just!

Who are "they"? I thought you mentioned you had not contacted anyone on the board or with the PM company yet?

I'm not saying there isn't or is anything unjust going on, I'm just saying that it's too early to tell.

Have you researched the HOA through the Secretary of State's website yet?

Have you contacted the county Deed Room to see about getting copies of your documents?

And I can promise you that we always have people who claim they never received certain notices.

I'm the one who manually labels each and every document that goes out to all our members. And it never fails that a great many of them always profess to never having received anything.

Well, unless our mailman is hoarding their mail only from us, my guess is that if an envelope comes in from the HOA and it's not a violation/fine notice or an assessment bill, they throw it away.

We have over 600 residents. We regularly only get 12 or 15 to meetings.

I guess all those other residents never got their notices, either. We know they did, but if you ask any of them, this is what you hear, "I never got a notice about a meeting!"

At one point I even started sending the notices out on cute greeting cards with a picture on the front of someone circling a date in red with a headline that said, "Save the date!" and with the details inside of the meeting and what the topics would be. I figured it would be just different enough to get their attention.

Still only about 10 to 15 of the regular attendees.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Trina, if you have their NAMES, you can look them up yourself, right?

There are white pages or PVA rolls for your area, right?

TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I don't have last name or i would look them up
TrinaD (Oklahoma)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I contacted the HOA lawyer that sent my husband and a lady named sheila (they got my name wrong) a notice about the dues going up. I explained that I was trying to contact my HOA board members to obtain copies of CC&R, financial statement, and the bylaws this has been several days ago. they said they would call back. I did contact the county clerk but I have to wait till monday to get the records, I finally found them on the sec. st. web. but the only information listed was the name of the attorney and the filing number, date it was filed, location, etc... no cc&r or bylaws, or anyother document except were they filed lean notices on houses in the addition.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
The liens were probably signed by the president of the hoa.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
It's not the Secretary of State's responsibility to have the association's documents. As an incorporated entity, there are filing responsibilities to maintain the assocation as a registered business. You won't find those documents there, unless your organization specifically requested they be uploaded.

I'm guessing the attorney in question is the Registered Agent for the association. Go ahead and keep communicating through her, if that's the case. Frustrating, I know...but that's her responsibility if she's a Registered Agent.

Definitely wait until Tuesday for the deed room...unless your county offices will be open on Monday, Oct 12th, 2009 (Columbus Day - Federal Holiday).
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I dunno, Trina, but I find it very odd that your neighbors would not know the full names of the (few) board members that they did claim to know, nor where they might live! But, that speaks to the apathy in many neighborhoods, I suppose. For the majority of people in HOAs, the board, heck, the association as a whole, is out of sight, out of mind. The only time people sit up and take notice is when they either get a violation/fine notice or get their assessment invoice. The fact is, BODs and HOAs are not "top of mind" for most people as they go about their business day-to-day, week-to-week, or even month-to-month. I would bet good money that a decent number of people in my own subdivision cannot even recall the last time they sent in a BOD election ballot, much less the last time they saw one.

I definitely agree that you should continue communication with the lawyer and try to get some information that way.

I didn't expect the deed restrictions (cc&rs) to be on the Secretary of State's website, but generally the association's Annual Report, which should definitely list the board members' names (sometimes it even contains their mailing address), and the by laws (if the state requires those to be filed. Some states don't.), and possibly the Articles of Incorporation. Which wouldn't necessarily help you right now, but are good to have at any rate.

Hope you can find something out on Monday (or Tuesday if the deed room is closed)!

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Brian,

You're right, the state law says the HOA is resp for providing the info in communities with more than 50 homes; in communities with fewer than 50 homes it's the seller's resp. However, in most instances the HOA provides the info regardless of the size of the assn. as most realtors will provide the title officer with the name of the HOA. For sale by owner transactions are not mentioned in the state law so it's anyone's guess how many of those are referred to the HOA for compliance. I'm sure very few sellers are aware of the state law requirements.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
wow, my memory worked! we had 40 homes, i remember being under the limit. However, even at that, the Title company always contacted us, and i asked if they had copies.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Brian,

I am soooo happy your memory is working!

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