💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

JudieA1 (Washington)
Posts: 28
Posted:
I'm the president of a small condo association (10 units) in Washington. We've been having a problem with an owner that has an excuse for everything. When he first moved in last year, he broke the rule of having a renter live with him. He said he knew the rules said no, but didn't think it mattered that much. We have a very small parking lot (2 spots available for each unit) and this is just one reason we don't allow renters. There are several other reasons, but I won't go into that right now. We also pay for the water out of our dues money, so when someone adds a member to their "family", we all pay for it. No, we can't change that. We have one water line for all the units and that's the only way our utility will bill us. I insisted he get rid of his renter and he said he'd talked it over with his lawyer dad and he told him that as long as he wasn't paying him rent, he was just a visitor. However, the guy already told us that he liked the extra money coming in, so... Anyway, I told him he had 3 months to get him out. He did it, but now he's got a new renter! He told the vice president that he was just housesitting while he was on his honeymoon, but let it slip tonight that he was living with him permanently. I'm constantly having to tell him to stop doing this and that and I'm so sick of it. I honestly think he thinks he can gt away with it because I'm a women and he doesn't think I'll do anything. However, I really don't know what to do. If he says the guy isn't paying him any money, how am I going to enforce this rule? We do have in our rules that only two cars can be on the property so I know I can make him have his friend move his car, but this is getting so out of hand. He never answers his emails and well, is pretty much ignoring the Board. How should I handle this? I would like the renter to move, but we don't really have anything in the rules that say friends can't stay with you for awhile. We have no time limit written down. He moved here because his best friend bought a unit and another one came available a month later. He was also best friends with a brother of someone else that lives here. Great, huh. I'm sure the 3 of them will vote us out come January but for now I don't know how to take charge of this problem. Sorry for ranting on and on. This just kind of got to me today.
Thanks,
Judie
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
You can try to bully him and keep annoying him till the renter moves out, but that's about it.

Unfortunately your HOA has enacted a rule on renters that is unenforceable under state or federal law. If it ever went to court, the judge would invalidate your HOA rules that prohibit renting.

Your HOA can have as many rules as it wants, but that doesn't mean you can enforce them legally. You'll just end up with piles of law suits against you.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Judi - you don't have a leg to stand on about this. I can't find one rule that he has broken OR that you could prove or enforce. I could see if he had two or three guys living with him, but one. Doesn't that make it 2 people in one unit? Is that OK?

Why does this bug you so??

Your real issue is how to measure water consumption for each unit. Explore individual water meters.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Judi,

The BOD should explore adopting a fine policy that is if the CCRs give them the authority to fine for violations. Of course, fining is only possible when rules have been broken. Since there is no rule on rentals or guests, forget about that. However, if the parking rule has been broken then he can be fined for that or the car can be towed if that is allowed. Some jurisdictions require towing signs to be in place so be sure you've followed the law b/4 towing. If you are so concerned about the amount of water being used in his unit, then as Susan suggests, the BOD should explore the possibility of having individual water meters installed. You know you can't judge the amount of water used by the number of people in a unit. Put a teenaged girl in one unit and she alone will use the amount of water that 3 adults would use!!!
JudieA1 (Washington)
Posts: 28
Posted:
Well, it bugs me so much because they have 3 people living there, not 2 since he's married. We only have 19 parking spots (20 if someone parks behind their partner's car-there's only 1 spot that this can happen, tho) and 10 units. If everyone has 2 people living in there unit, that takes up all the spots. So, when his renter parks on our lot, that leaves an owner without a spot. Also, I'm not sure why this isn't legal. I should have been more clear about the rental situation. I apologize. Our CCRs and rules state that no one can rent out a room. They can rent their entire unit out, but not a room and still live there. This was made before my time of living here, but I was told why they had the CCRs changed by a lawyer and filed with the county. Apparently, an owner was renting out all of his rooms (3) and each of his renters would have company over pretty much every night leaving no space to park for several owners. Also, our CCRs say that it's a $1,000 fine for breaking this rule.

It's unfortunate that we have so few parking spots, but that's the way it is.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Well, Judie, I really don't know how you can prove this guy isn't a visitor. In fact, maybe he's a permanent resident. Is there a CCR restriction against that? Is this an adult community and he's under the age requirement? I don't know of any other reason that someone couldn't move in with a property owner. What if your elderly Mother had to move in with you and she had a car? Bottom line: as long as it cannot be proven that this guy is a renter and as long as the property owner says he's a guest, I don't know that there is anything the BOD can do about it. Regarding the parking: has the board ever thought about assigning parking spaces? Assign one space per unit and the remainder are labeled "guest" spaces -- first come, first served.
JudieA1 (Washington)
Posts: 28
Posted:
We have assigned parking in the carport area which takes care of one person per unit. The outside parking is first come, first serve for owners. There are 3 extra parking spots available because 3people are single. They are usually taken by guests. Each owner here owns 2 parking spots so technically the single people don't even have to give up there spot to someone else. So are you telling me that if I come home and 1 or 3 renters have used up all the spots, I (as an owner) have to park off the premises?
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Are the parking spots deeded, or simply two/per due to your rules/regs/CCRs?
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Just because you had the CCRs changed by a lawyer and filed with the county does not make them enforceable. I could pay a lawyer to add "no Chinese people" $1000 fine and file it with the county, its not enforceable. HOA will loose.

What you can do is assign the outside parking spots. Sounds like you have no parking assignments for the spots outside and people just grab them as they want. Assign the spots, mark them in paint. After you do this, start towing.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
After you assign the parking spots, where will the the person your talking about park the 3rd car? Guess what? NOT YOUR PROBLEM. (wink)
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Judie,

A renter would use the space of the property owner's unit that he is renting. No one should be parked in your space if it is marked with your unit number. If all the parking spots are owned by the the unit owners then they should all be assigned -- 2 for each owner. Each space should be marked with the unit number. Of course that means you have no guest spots or any spots available for this person who is living with an owner. If he or anyone else parks in a marked space his vehicle can be towed. But you must mark the spaces accordingly. Also, if the spaces are actually owned by the unit owners, as you have stated, IMO, it's up to each individual unit owner to tow an illegally parked vehicle. And, the HOA may not have any legal authority to issue a fine for illegal parking -- it's not the HOA's property!
JudieA1 (Washington)
Posts: 28
Posted:
I give up. Looks like people can do whatever they want, whenever they want and rules mean nothing at all. I think I'll go break some myself. Why not. Nothing will happen. In fact, really why even have a Board if they don't have any authority. We didn't mark the outside spaces so there would be parking available for guests. It hasn't been abused until these 3 people bought here.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Julie:

Have you sent them formal written requests for compliance, with a concrete deadline?

You may well have to put some teeth into the compliance demands by turning it over to an attorney to begin a lawsuit to compel compliance.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Judie, no one is saying you can't enforce the covenant what we are saying you have to prove a violation has occurred to enforce and your assumptions are not proof. If you have a copy of an ad offering to rent a room that would be proof, if you have a copy of a lease that would be proof. Now in OH anyone who rents their property must register with the County so if WA has something similar you could try contacting the county. Also this seems to be a problem in WA so you might want to check out this thread: http://www.hoatalk.com/Search/ForumSearch/tabid/87/forumid/1/postid/44240/view/topic/Default.aspx

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 09/14/2009 1:04 PM
Just because you had the CCRs changed by a lawyer and filed with the county does not make them enforceable. I could pay a lawyer to add "no Chinese people" $1000 fine and file it with the county, its not enforceable. HOA will loose.

What you can do is assign the outside parking spots. Sounds like you have no parking assignments for the spots outside and people just grab them as they want. Assign the spots, mark them in paint. After you do this, start towing.

Steve - Why are you saying that restrictions on rentals that are in the form of deed restrictions will be struck down in a court of law? I'd be interested in knowing either what federal statute or what specific federal case law has determined that such restrictions are unlawful. To my knowledge many, many HOAs, Condos, have rental restrictions in the CCRs.
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnO6 on 09/15/2009 3:16 AM
Posted By SteveM9 on 09/14/2009 1:04 PM
Just because you had the CCRs changed by a lawyer and filed with the county does not make them enforceable. I could pay a lawyer to add "no Chinese people" $1000 fine and file it with the county, its not enforceable. HOA will loose.

What you can do is assign the outside parking spots. Sounds like you have no parking assignments for the spots outside and people just grab them as they want. Assign the spots, mark them in paint. After you do this, start towing.


Steve - Why are you saying that restrictions on rentals that are in the form of deed restrictions will be struck down in a court of law? I'd be interested in knowing either what federal statute or what specific federal case law has determined that such restrictions are unlawful. To my knowledge many, many HOAs, Condos, have rental restrictions in the CCRs.

BTW Steve - I understand that your example of "no chinese people" was meant to be illustrative of an extreme that clearly would violate federal anti-discrimination laws, but I think you meant by inference that universal rental restrictions would be similarly unlawful. I'm just not aware that is true and if it was, I find it amazing that so many communities (including ours) have limits on rentals.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
John O,

I think Steve was only referring to restrictions that would be discriminatory, thus his reference to "no Chinese people". There are some old HOA assn's with CCRs that have discriminatory (regarding race)restrictions that cannot be upheld.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Judie,

The only rule that you can prove to have been broken is the parking space issue. You continually say "renter". What do your documents state--exactly-- about renters. Everyone is telling you basically the same thing. Is there a law or restriction on 3 people residing in a unit? If you don't have one then you need to forget about that. And most States have "Renters Rights" laws which prohibits an eviction unless they have broken those laws.
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Judie, I understand your frustration as we had the exact same problem where I live....don't give up, and don't start breaking rules yourself; two wrongs don't make a right.

If two parking spaces DO belong to each unit, then immediately assign them as those here suggested. Paint the space or bumper/car stop with: RESEVERED--along with whatever type of "coding" you'll assign them. I don't recommend painting unit numbers on the spaces but rather a code system such as A1; B2: etc.

We had the same problem when owners with two cars would come home and find all the "second" spaces used up by visitors and NO it is not fair when an owner must park off-site when someone else has a bunch of friends over.

If there are no guest/visitor spaces, too bad. "First come, first served" is never right when people who don't live there get the spaces first. We limited our restrictions to 'no more than two cars per unit'.

Your parking lot is what it is. People should see there is limited parking and if their needs are for more, perhaps living there may not be the best place for them. People "outgrow" their current homes all the time.

When we changed our parking spaces a lot of people were p-----. But we had to explain that as the Board we had an obligation to the people who LIVE here, and PAY to live here. We are under no obligation to provide parking for people who do not live here.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Steve - Why are you saying that restrictions on rentals that are in the form of deed restrictions will be struck down in a court of law? I'd be interested in knowing either what federal statute or what specific federal case law has determined that such restrictions are unlawful. To my knowledge many, many HOAs, Condos, have rental restrictions in the CCRs.


What specific law? If your want me to cite the case law for you and how that would apply to your situation I'm available for $150 an hour. (wink)

Most states have laws for unreasonable restrictions for owners renting or marketing their property. If they don't, a judge will rule in your favor if it was brought to court. For a situation like rentals, it really doesn't matter what's in the CCR's. It doesnt matter if "every" HOA had no rentals in its CCR's.

What does matter is what a judge will decide in court. But when it goes to court, who wins? The lawyers always win. Your money that is.
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
I meant to say RESERVED spaces. Better go clean my contacts.
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
Steve - I'm certainly not an attorney nor expert in the matter, but the reason I'm curious is that about a year ago when I was President of our 103 unit HOA (not condo - fee simple attached Villas), we were desirous of limiting the percent of our units that could be rented. Our law firm is one of the largest in GA and specializes in Community Association practice. When we brought this to them, they were quite comfortable with helping us craft CCR amendments that were both lawful and likely to be upheld in a legal dispute. Now we did do a "grandfathering" of existing rental units, but that didn't affect the total percentage of allowable rentals (5%) within the community. There was a "hardship clause" that allowed the Board of Directors to grant limited exceptions.

The upshot is that the CCR amendment was approved by the requisite percentage of owners and currently exists today. I find it hard to believe that our law firm would have either deliberately or unknowingly taken us down the road of creating uneforceable deed restrictions. In fact if they have, they are certainly open to legal malpractice.

This is the entire reason, I'm questioning your assertion. It seems that you haven't offered up anything in the name of a federal statute, and I'm uncertain about case law.

P.S. - If you are indeed an attorney, $150/hour is way too cheap In my profession, I won't shake hands for less than $250/hour .. .. ..
JudieA1 (Washington)
Posts: 28
Posted:
Thanks! Sorry it took so long to respond. I got really frustrated with the other responses. I don't think they read my complaint thoroughly. Our CCR's absolutely states that we can not rent out a "room" within our unit. I believe they thought I was saying rent the entire unit. It's a long story why that rule came about, but we all like it for other reasons too, and one was because we can all have 2 spaces for our cars. Like you, everyone here was made fully aware that we only had 2 spaces available per unit and if they had another car, it would have to be parked off premises. This guy's renter also had his girlfriend staying with him most of the time, taking up yet another space. He sees nothing wrong with it. I'm sure he would if I parked behind him because my space was taken, tho.

Thanks for seeing my problem for what it is. By the way - his friend got a job in another state and moved out a couple of days ago. Yeahhh.

J

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here