Records Request

You could take them to small claims court and ask for the court to order them to produce the items.

Anyone moving into an HOa run situation should ask for #14 and on. In fact, the HOA should provide that info in its annual report or any new member. And all members should have copies of CCRs, bylaws, rules and regs.,etc.

All the other stuff, (Board minutes of the 2008 and 2009 meetings) should answer your questions. Since the secretary should have a binder containing all minutes, a request for view them should be easy to fill.

The minutes of the Annual Meeting should answer your questions about the election results (count of the election)

Committees minutes are internal and some committees don't even keep minutes. Since they are advisory to the board and have no real power until their recommendations are accepted and presented for motion to the board.

USUALLY, if the election was not disputed, the ballots and all other materials are destroyed after a while.

I'd put you into a room with the binder and all other info, and let you have at it. But qite frankly, your request is exhaustive and too specific.

Bring your own copy machine.

Michael,

After reading your list of requests, I can see where your Board is not responding, even tho they are required to do so per Tx. Code.

What purpose would asking for the 2007 minutes and all records accomplish? Different Board, different owners and by now, different laws. You should have access to Proxy amount numbers but nothing more than that. What would that accomplish?

If you think that this amount of information from the past will get you elected, I am afraid that you are going at this entirely too radical and are probably making people turn away from helping you. Deal with present issues, fix what is wrong now. Ancient history is just that and you cannot change outcomes from back in 07 and 08.

No, Susan, I think that is his intent.

Sounds like harassment to me.

Yes, it is a lot. It started out as items 1-9, which is just election-related stuff. But:
• It looks like they refuse to provide the complete proxies and ballots, which is the core of any electoral review; while I disagree and want to keep those items open, I also moved on.
• As a practical matter, they aren't burdened by these items, which they either won't provide or believe they provided.
• I got more worried about lawsuit expenses, risk and history, so I added items 10-17; those are what's pending, for practical purposes.
• In the request, I asked them to focus on items 12, 13, 15, 16 and 17; that's relatively limited.
• Frankly, if they would make some effort and provide some substantial compliance, I would acknowledge and reciprocate. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. But even when there were just a few items and a month between request iterations, they pretty much ignored it.

I suggested we meet at a copy shop. I have no problem with doing the clerical work. The law says they only have to provide access during reasonable business hours, so sifting and reproducing is supposed to be on me. But the law does say they must provide access.
Actually, I think that's more than should be required in regular reports (absent request) and more than most people would want to see – I'm asking for 24 months of bank statements.

I do think the accounts and insurance policies are regular records that they should provide on request (and could do without a huge effort). But if they only provided balances and stated what (if any) debt we currently owe, that would show good faith and provide some substantial response (and a snapshot of our financial situation). Simply ignoring this for months shows bad faith, and looks worse when considered in light of other things they have done openly.
I agree that it should be easy to provide minutes, and if they state clearly those represent all their decisions, fulfills my request. I'm trying to box them in to where they can't say later, "You only asked for meeting minutes; and we didn't provide that action, because it was decided by telephone [or email] without a meeting."

I just realized that I should add an item (13a) next time: "All committee minutes, votes, decisions and actions in 2008 and 2009." That way they can't rationalize omissions with, "That was done by a committee, not the Board." If they simply state that committees didn't take any actions or are not empowered to take action, then that works for me.
Did you mean too general? I think limiting it to 2009 or 2008 and 2009 is sufficiently limited, but I see your point about being a lot of stuff. I have no problem doing the sifting; I'd prefer to do it at a copy shop.

I tried to spell out on the first page: I just want what they've got, and they should tell me if there's nothing or if they've given me everything. As long as they provide the actual decisions and actions, I don't care whether they kept formal minutes and other stuff. If they don't record their decisions and actions, then there's a much bigger problem then just making records available.
Per TX code and per our Bylaws and per our Deed Restrictions. I don't think any of these have changed, and the HOA is supposed to keep records. Nonetheless, I stated they can just tell me if the records don't exist.

Only election-related stuff is being sought for 2007. I'm not asking for "all records" – I'm being much more specific. In any event, minutes/decisions/actions should be easy to provide. This request started with items 1-9 and expanded several months later.

Considering this, do you still think I'm being unreasonable?
I am trying to get at the records. I don't mind working for them – it would be easier to sift than to keep asking month after month, and legally that's not their job, anyway.

I was concerned that setting a time when they have not responded to my request for them to set a time would appear more confrontational then continuing to ask. Now I'm thinking about trying that in the next request.

DianeW, SusanW1, DonnaS, SusanS5 – did any of you mean only that the prospect of the BoD organizing and preparing the records was unreasonable? Or that simply allowing me access to them to do my own sifting and copying was too onerous?
Roger, your response looks reasonable to me.

I did not get such a response. If I did, I would reply along the lines of: Can we just meet at a copy shop and let me copy them at my expense? If not, then what's your estimate, please? May I see the records before you copy them, in order to verify this is what I want?

If your estimate exceeded ten cents ($0.10) per page, then I might object. The purpose of looking at them first would be to see if you interpreted my request to include a lot of stuff I did not intend. I might also break up my records request -- not only to break up the cost into smaller payments, but also to see how some of it goes before paying for the rest.

If you showed up at a copy shop with a crate of unsorted records, I would only ask for enough time to sift out what I wanted.

Your laws are more specific than TX law, our Bylaws or our Declarations; although the meat is essentially the same, and the additional code would not really impact my request.

Michael,

In Florida, the HOA is allowed per State Statutes to charge up to 50 cents per page. I sure would pare down your request before I'd go after what you are looking for. I still did not get a good reason why you want to see so many old records. You cannot change what has happened as for spending and bank statements. Are you looking to see if funds have disappeared?

Gloria, As I noted above in this thread, a couple of times, I would love to make an appointment and go through the records myself. In our HOA, that means telling someone when I will visit their home uninvited – it's a bit rude and unproductive.

I invited them to tell me when they can meet me at an Office Depot. They could easily respond by asking me to come by and sort through some boxes and show them what I need. In fact, I will add a statement in my next request that I would like to do this at N:00 at Office Depot on XXX of next week, and they are welcome to start with just a few of my priority items, and what can I do to make this easier.
Donna, that's a reasonable question. My stated purposes are at the end of the formal request. We are in an expensive lawsuit, and I want to determine our financial situation and exposure to liability, since each of us (including myself) will have to pay for this. Also, there are a lot of things going on that are unexplained and anomalous.

It would be reasonable for you to expect more explanation, but I don't want to get into more detail in this thread, other than to say that I don't entirely agree with those who think when a homeowner smells a rat they are just whining, but when a Director does something, there must be a good reason. (I don't think you said that.) In any event, it's a records request, not an accusation of misconduct (other than withholding the records).

I am not just throwing busy work at them. I am willing to do as much as I can to help and make it as easy for them as I can, as long as I still get the facts. I don't expect everything all at once immediately. I don't even expect everything all at once now, after waiting several months.

I provided priorities to help them do this piecemeal. I think each item is both reasonable and lawful in itself, and they don't have to do it all at once.

Does this sound reasonable or unreasonable to you? What can I do to make it more reasonable for my BoD? What can I do to encourage them to comply?

Personally, I think you are doing an end-around to obtain information that the other party in the lawsuit would find beneficial in some way.

Perhaps the Michael Jordon Attorney could subpoena the records in the course of the lawsuit.

But to be honest with you, I still find both your request and your reasoning suspect and bordering on harassment.

Yes, many of those things should be made available to you.

But what you are not telling everyone here is that you are already on record with this board as being hostile to the board.

I am at a loss as to what you intend to accomplish through this website with your repeated efforts to justify yourself and your actions.

You are no dummy nor are you a naive homeowner.

You know perfectly well what documents are supposed to be made available to homeowners and you know perfectly well what your recourse is if they don't comply.

There is nothing that a single one of us can tell you that you don't already know.

Except, you can once again try to garner our suspicions against the board and somehow become cheerleaders for your cause.

It's not likely to happen because we still only have your perspective on this entire debacle and there is no way we could possible defend or support either you, your actions, the board or the board's actions.

So really, seriously, what is your goal with all this?

Forget meeting at a copy shop. Why should the PM pay an employee for hours while you sort through stuff? As far as 10 cents a copy..good luck. Our PM charges 25 cents per page. It sounds like you have way too much time on your hands. Zero on on what is important for you to see and you may have better luck. Exactly what is it you are looking for?

Donna,

My thinking exactly..why the urgency to see all of this old stuff? As far as Michael says he would pay 10 cents per copy but would balk at anything higher...tee hee! Not only that but he wants the PM to drag boxes to "his" copy store so he could look through everything and decide what he wants copied. This guy is not living in the real world.

Robert, The OP has never told us that he has a PM where he could and should be able to see whatever he wants. I've served on the board and can assurse you I do not have all the old records. Surely there must be a time limitation on what years he can see (two, three or fours years ago?) ..but who knows? The Op seems to insist that he see these records at Office Depot where he can get cheap copies and tie up an employee of the PM for who knows how many hours. Florida requires copies to be made at the owner's request up to 50 cents per copy. Why should the association pay for copies that an individual wants.

We have an hoa with 101 members..multiply that by them all wanting copies of who knows what? And, why again are you dragging lawyers into this? It's the first I've heard of it.

Robert, Ellen:

This poster already knows what to do and how to proceed.

He is trying to make a point with them of some kind.

If you recall his other posts, this board is in a lengthy lawsuit with another resident and this poster is supportive of that resident. The resident in the lawsuit is an attorney, as is the resident's wife. So between the three of them, they know good and well what their (his) options are.

It's a fishing expedition, plan and simple, and it's highly likely that the board's attorney is advising them on how to deal with these requests.

Maybe their attorney isn't, who knows? I do suspect that he's also "fishing" among us, too.

That's another "who knows?" as well.

Thanks, Jeanne.

I could ask a couple of neighbors if they are interested. Several of them have asked for pieces of this information and been ignored. I think they sent simple email messages, but I don't know how their requests were phrased. Most who want information now seem to feel that our BoD just isn't going to tell anyone anything, and we can't afford to sue them, so we may as well not bother.

A lawyer suggested that I keep sending these requests, because it builds a case history in case we later want to do something. I can't really send something and not take my own requests seriously, and I still think some Directors mean well and may take their responsibilities seriously if approached in the right way.

Texas law requires response to a records request within ten days. It also provides for a second request, requiring response within seven days. My first four (smaller) requests were a month apart; the first requested 10-day performance and subsequent iterations specified 7-days. But these laws have no teeth. Hypothetically, I could sue them in district court and ask for my legal costs, but I have chosen to draw at persistently reiterating my requests.


No PM, no employees, and our Directors are prohibited from accepting compensation. If they were paid or if there was an MC, I would have insisted on some response and escalated much more quickly.

(I think being volunteers should, and does, get them a lot of slack cut for mistakes quirks and omissions. I also think that makes it very unwise for them to spend twice our annual budget on a lawsuit, especially without approval from the Membership. In any event, it does not excuse them from ignoring requests and not releasing information. I feel that I have sufficiently respected their situation and cut them plenty of slack.)

Ellen, what I am looking for is a complete list of decisions and actions since 1st January 2008. There have not been that many, and it's the minimum that should be in their minutes. I also want copies of insurance policies and bank statements. I think these are no-brainers; they should be easy to find and reasonable to provide. Do you think I am mistaken and this is unreasonable?

Roger, I see your point that they may not want me to do the leg work – they may believe they would have to do it and it would be onerous and no way around it. (They can't charge for their time, but their time is still valuable to them.) If the issue is locating records, I don't see why they can't have me do the sifting with them or while they work on something else. I don't know what the issue is, other than choosing not to disclose. I think we agree that there may be issues of time or cost, but I am speculating as much as you guys. They simply have not responded.

Actually, Ellen, you suggested we have a PM with paid staff.

I'm sorry if I have not been clear, although I thought I said it plainly – I am willing to do this any which way they want. They have simply not responded, leaving me to speculate what is easier for them. I'm not sure why it would be easier for them to go copy things and charge me, than for me to meet them and do the copying, but they aren't saying one way or the other. I've also stated in the request that they can just tell me what they don't have. Finally, I've asked for very little before 1/1/08 (and would happily make do without it), so why would it matter if they discard records after four years?

And for the record, I am not working for or with either party to that lawsuit. The Heckler has promoted that speculation for a couple of months, largely in response to a joke I made about the foolishness of this lawsuit and how the rest of us are caught in the middle. I am trying to figure out if there is any constructive way for me to move forward and get this information, and I've seen some good suggestions in this thread.

Robert, I did discuss this with a lawyer, who approved of the form and content of the request (although he did that much for free, so that advice may be worth what I paid for it). He advised making the request more specific, as to which records and dates, which I did. As I've already said, I don't intend to hire a lawyer. I'm caught in the middle, and that's too expensive. I've heard some good ideas about how to make the request more reasonable, and I've responded to some suggestions, asking if my responses changed anyone's mind. What would you do to make this request reasonable?

I suppose I could just submit a request for the five items I have prioritized, and see if that gets some action.

(If I had sued, I think our BoD's failure to respond would have hurt any objections they might raise and helped my claim for costs. But I think courts rarely award actual costs; and I am trying to mitigate risk, not invite it.)

Yes, and "The Heckler" says "Bingo":

"A lawyer suggested that I keep sending these requests, because it builds a case history in case we later want to do something."

Not sure what I did for my reply above to be inside the shaded box, so will repost-

What can you do? You can put your money where your mouth is and pay an attorney to go to court to order the HOA to produce the documents. And, BTW, I wouldn't pay it to the one who told you to keep digging. Every new request that you send is more doucmentation for the board to use against you. Your agenda is showing, my friend.

What agenda, please? I said I want documents, and I asked for documents.

Now someone says "A lawyer would advise not to keep asking." I related that a lawyer said, "Keep asking." And that makes my agenda to do what? To not really get the documents? I have chosen records that I want, not records that I think would be difficult to get. I have prioritized records that I want most, not records that I think are most difficult to get. What documents would you expect to be difficult to dig out, and what documents would you expect to be relatively easy? Seriously, if I just wanted to be a pain in the hindquarters, then what should I ask for? I haven't even thought about it, and I'm not sure where I would start. SusanS5, how is my request documentation against me?

Robert says he sympathizes, because he sometimes what? Just annoys people until they do the right thing? And if I were to commiserate, then that would mean I am not trying to get documents? That I don't have a reason to want them? And if I skip to the point and say, "Sorry you have to do that, but I don't look at it that way. I just want them to do their job and give me what should be public records." – then what? Then I'm still foolish for asking for them? I never really got the point.

I think it's reasonable in this forum, when I respond politely to a post – when I point out that it may have misread me, when I ask if it meant X and doing X would make sense – I think it's reasonable to expect the poster may reciprocate in kind. I get that some of you think 2007 (2.65 years) is too far back. Does anyone think 2008 (less than two years) is too far back? I'm not sneering – I'm asking. Every question in this thread (in general when I post) is a sincere request for an answer – for clarification if continuing a discussion.

Some have said that minutes and insurance are reasonable. I'm not sure if some have said these are unreasonable requests or just that there are too many items total for one request.

SusanS5, why would a lawyer say otherwise? That if someone ignores a lawful request and their lawful duty, then the requestor should simply assume that further requests amount to personal attacks? I imagine if I keep hunting for legal advice, then most or all lawyers will say that repeating document requests puts the BoD in a progressively worse position, and some of those lawyers will also say that I can't really do anything about that and it's a waste of time (unless I can expect some financial gain that would make it worth taking them to court, which is not the case). If I do that, I will let you know what they say.

SusanS5, I asked of you what I believe is a polite and reasonable question to clarify your last post and what you think about my reply thereto. Your new post ignores my reply and specific question to you, suggests I throw my money at a lawsuit to prove I am right (which I believe would be purely foolish, whether right or wrong, and doesn't look like you are trying to suggest something productive or reasonable for me), and alleges that I have an ulterior motive. If they wanted to shut me up, they could just provide the documents.

I always consider what I would do on the other side. I don't think I would thumb my nose and say, "come and take it". I'm not sure my BoD is really doing that, since they did talk about getting me stuff at one point. I am pretty sure I would ask, "Do you want it by email, thumb drive, or hardcopy." I'm pretty sure I would find either meeting the requestor at a copy shop or making the copies myself equally convenient; but if I preferred one, then I would just offer that one. If it wasn't a good week or a good month, I'd tell 'm when I would try to get to it. If I thought it was too much, I'd either pick the top N easiest things and offer those, or I'd ask 'm to pick N things 'e want most. And I'd put it in writing, so that I can show good faith (to our neighbors or to a Court, as necessary) and so that any flack I got would actually be documentation against 'm. Does that sound like a reasonable way of looking at it?

I'm not asking you to say if my BoD is being reasonable or not. If you think my request is unreasonable, what should I do to make it reasonable? SusanS5, Robert, everyone who has said this is unreasonable – what would you consider a reasonable request?

Susan, everything between "div" and "/div" tags or "quote" and "/quote" tags (with the angle brackets in place of the ") goes in a box. It can be hard to see all the tags when you have multiple levels, so look closely or use a search function.

First let me apologize. Honestly, my thoughts were not that anythign was wrong with your post, but I was responding to many others questioning my motivation, putting words in my mouth (so to speak), and general unreasonable and irrational attacks on me. Reading it now, it looks like I was doing the same to you, and I apologize. I did not mean that.

Your suggestions all look good, but a few notes on your suggestions, as they apply to my BoD:

Others have asked about taping BoD meetings, and they forbade it. They don't want to be on the record on anything. Given that the HOA is plaintiff in a lawsuit, I cannot fault them in this.

I have started a web site, but I have not gotten very far. I have considered sending a mailing to the Membership. I have never called names at meetings or in conversation, I have tried to discuss things in a calm and factual manner, and I have nothing to hide. This is an emotional issue, and I sometimes end up shouting, "One at a time" to others who are all talking over each other or the BoD. I think I've pretty much done that here. Except for a humorous analogy that someone chose to treat as my only serious post, I will respond to any specific complaints about my posting here.

Compromise is fine with me. It is also essential -- their faction controls 100% of our BoD, so we are in a weaker position. Unfortunately, people who are in a position of absolute control have little incentive to compromise, and they have 100% of our BoD.

Ellen,
Good clean post Ellen.
We sort of forced our Board to do exactly the same thing and a ton of stuff can be downloaded from the Website, which is no long an owner websiote but a Board website, which was the idea in the first place.

But to couple this post with Michaels last to me because it does sort of go together.

Michael, whether the Board even knows you are taping the session is immaterial. Why you request if the meeting can be taped, is to get your request into the minutes. It does not bode well for a Board to object to taping a open meeting. Lots do it, but I bet io it goes to court some judge may look on that kind of action as "hiding something." Not all but some.

add to Michael,
I got a couple about ten years younger than I in my sights, and them give me great incentive to make 95.

Michael,
Sure the Board ranted and raved about our website, blah, blah. The guy that got the license for the website is now the President of the Board and before that, we gave the website to the Board. We are talking one years time Michael.
Now, I fight with the President of the Board about a few things I don't like and he has no objection to, but he took me out this morning for my Birthday Breakfast.
This is what I am referring to when I say just take baby steps. Our previous Boards never had an open Board meeting. Now all Board meetings are open except ES, as it should be. Even committee meetings are open.

Now we need to work on our owners to make a contribution and look at the website and attend the meetings and volunteer to help their association.

Same sort of stuff you are wading through. Get some support, it will go faster.
Regards the Board not putting stuff in writing, I can see some of that is necessary. Very little, very little. Being open will get you in less trouble than being closed.

"Roger" posted recently, and others, and ran down what is available at no cost to owners on their website. It took time and effort to put it together. Roger is a professional manager working with a large Management business. I never met Roger but I appreciate what it took to put what he posted together. Maybe two minutes to copy and post on this site and maybe years to get to that point.

We all that post here have had these same kind of problems. We would do well to duplicate the good stuff on this site.........the successes.

Go to top of this page, click on Search, type in "Roger".

Should be close to first listing in archives.

Very cool, Barbara. Happy Birthday, Robert!

Robert,
You absolutely crack me up. And yeah, nobody would dare want to replace our signs cause they cost more than my vehicle.

Michael-

Thank you for the info about posting a reply outside of the brackets!

Assuming that you are entitled to a copy of the documents that you have requested (and I am not questioning this, just getting that out of the way), then the board should provide them. I may have missed this, but it sounds as though the board is not responding to your request. That is wrong and, hopefully, you have a state agency that you can file a complaint with to obtain the copies.

Reasonable- specific documents that the association is required to provide by law. Unreasonable- non-specific requests for documents that may or may not even exist, ie- any document that mentions the food to be served at the annual picnic; any docs that reference door colors, etc. (I'll have to go back and look at your list again to be more specific.)

But, the time that it will take for the requested documents to be put together for you would in all likelihood be great. I think it is unrealistic to expect someone to bring boxes of files to an Office Depot and then stand by while you go through them to flag the docs that you want reproduced with you only paying $.10 a copy.

I have been on both sides of document requests. In one case, two members had a long list of documents, as well as "all documents containing payments to non-contract vendors over $100..." In that case, the files were set up in an open area of my office and the members set an appointment to go through them. They were given the option of paying $45 an hour for a staff person to spend the time with them, making copies as they went along, or to flag the docs that they wanted with post-its, pay a per copy charge and the copies would be ready in a few days.

BC you are asking for information that involves potential litigation, I would not give you the option of going through the files unsupervised. You could destroy a document that you considered not to support your cause. (Not saying that you would.) Also, the same holds true for the keeper of the files (board or PM). They, too could destroy something that they may feel is incriminating.

So, what I think would be best would be for both parties to go through the files together, with you paying a per hour charge for the staff's time and the copies. I've worked with nine associations and have never seen files worth a toot. When boards change and PMs change, filing systems often change. It's a wonder that anything can be found!

I think that if you are serious about this, what I would do is:

1- find out how to make a complaint with the state if you are not given access to the docs. Hopefully your state will have such an agency. Otherwise, find out what your legal recourse is.
2- send a letter referencing state law and requesting either a copy of or access to the documents by XXXX date.
3- only include specific documents in your request. (you can go for the rest later)
4- include a statement offering to pay for staff time to assist you in reviewing the files if the documents are not readily available to be copied and mailed to you.
5- ask how they would prefer you pay for the copies- by check in advance? Made payable to whom?
6- close by saying "thank you and I look forward to hearing from you by XXXdate.
7- send it certified, return receipt requested.
8- if the date goes by and you have received not response, immediately report it to the regulating agency or attorney and let them take it from there.

You're kidding us, right? As long as you've been hounding this board and as much of a background you have with this entire issue, and the issue of the homeowner/attorney who is being sued, you have not "considered" another regulation agency in Texas?

I'm very very curious what your real agenda is here and why you continue to play such games with the posters here.

As mentioned before, this "Heckler" "heckles" because it smells a strong stench of duplicity and manipulation.

Can't wait to find out what your real intention is.