Trash Picker - Obsessive Compulsive Hoarder

Mike,

This woman needs medical attention. OCD-hoarding is a medical problem that can be treated. If the board knows how to contact a family member they may want to do that. If not, perhaps the city's public health dept (mental health) can be of assistance.

Sending violation notices and fines will not help this woman and will only add to her problems. On the other hand, if a board member were able to speak to her they may be able to get her to understand that her behavior is unacceptable, but I don't know how that could be accomplished if she doesn't speak English.

With all due respect to those posting above, this woman is very likely NOT OCD and NOT a "hoarder" (under the term we think to define a type of mental disorder).

What this woman is doing is something else altogether and it is not likely an issue for Social Services, a mental health professional, and/or medication.

This appears more likely to me to be a cultural issue.

I lived in Southeast Asia for a time. This woman is doing what I've witnessed hundreds of asian women and men do while I lived overseas.

It boils down to this: you can tell how wealthy a country is by looking at the contents of their garbage dumps.

In Southeast Asia, they recycle and reuse EVERYTHING. It doesn't get thrown away until it's nearly ash.

From the description above, it sounds to me like she is finding all sorts of "treasurers" that she is salvaging from the dump and is either taking them off somewhere to get a nickel or two for them, or making use of them at home in some way.

There is NO expectation of privacy relating to garbage/refuse.

The U.S. Supreme Court decided in the 1988 case California v. Greenwood, 486 U.S. 35 that ANYONE, including law enforcement agents and journalists, can access garbage that has been put out to be collected because it is considered public property.

HOWEVER - The Fourth Amendment defines personal property as protected if it is located inside the "curtilage," or area directly surrounding your house.

Some states DO have statutes that allow for limited privacy expectation related to garbage, but I don't see that Virginia is one of those states.

So, if your members are upset, I suggest they wait to put the garbage out for collection at the moment the garbage is being collected, or they can take their own garbage to a county/muni dump. If those options are too cumbersome for them, then they can't be that worried about privacy when they're throwing things away.

Do people just disregard cultural issues?

This woman very likely does NOT have a mental health issue.

PS: and even if the original poster did not reveal that this woman is from southeast asia, my own mother-in-law, when she was alive, had a huge "business" from dumpster diving.

She would make the rounds at various garbage collection sites, as well as up and down subdivisions during trash day, and pick through people's garbage for the exact same sort of items. She would repair and sell many things, and sometimes just clean others and sell them at a yard sale.

She would also remove labels from cans and UPC codes from boxes and had quite a lucrative refunding business going on, too.

And she did this until her mid-70s when the only thing that restricted her was a stroke.

I think it's so odd that people automatically jumped to the hording/mental illness angle when what was described above is more descriptive of a recycler or someone trying to make a dime or two of what other people throw away.

Could they, really, though? The Supreme Court has already ruled...

Also, how is this going to be "policed"? Are people just going to pay attention if SHE goes through the garbage? What are you going to do to transients/homeless who pick through garbage? Kids? Shoot, what if I throw my garbage out, and then I realize that I left something really valuable in there?

Seems to me, if you really want to maintain the private property argument, the garbage needs to be "owned" by someone, and not just left out (the crux of the Supreme Court decision). Is your HOA really going to "take possession" of garbage?

Seems to me that it would be an unenforceable rule, and also one that would NOT be applied uniformly.

Finally, my OPINION...seems really petty to me to pass a rule that will affect everyone just because people don't want to handle it the "right" way. Speak to her, find out what she's doing... Do you advise your owners to shred documents and to try to limit their impact on the landfills? Try to encourage them to use recylcling?

Again, and I completely appreciate your concerns about your member/owner, BUT...

I would have liked to see you address my questions about how the rule is going to be applied, how it's going to be enforced, and how you're going to deal with non-member/non-owners who decide to go dumpster diving.

Is your concern really for this woman's health and safety (your comments about roaches, etc), or are you (and I use "you" meaning your HOA) concerned about how it "looks". Be honest, both with yourself and with the other posters here so we can really try and help.

My comments...

I think your HOA could be thinking of going out on a limb that they don't want to go out on.

I'm a townhome person, too, and I appreciate the lack of storage space, BUT...
If your members/owners were really THAT worried about it, they'd do something about it. HOA rules/regs (In my opinion) shouldn't be developed just to keep ONE member/owner from doing something people don't like.

Also...good luck with the private property argument. I don't see it going anywhere, but...you never know. You may get a sympathetic judge. I mean, these people want their garbage protected from this ONE little woman? What about the garbage men who pick up the trash? What about the people who actually go to the dumps to get the stuff? REALLY...what's the REAL concern here? My guess...image, and nothing else.

Not trying to be argumentative, but you should really look at all the areas around this issue before thinking about developing a completely unenforceable rule.

Nice Robert!

I'm just thinking of how they would enforce it for others. I have "no trespassing" signs on our complex, but we still have homeless people who come through and go through the garbage bins. What, a sign is going to keep people out? For real?

Frankly, I think the OP is failing to see the bright side. With her sorting through the garbage, I imagine they might be able to eliminate one of the twice-weekly trash pickups! (kind of just kidding)

We just installed single stream recycling (which the homeless really like because they can pick out all the aluminum cans much more easily), and we hope it will eliminate one of our thrice/weekly pickups.

There is an old saying - "One man's trash is another man's treasure." Only in this case perhaps it is woman.

The way I see it, there is no harm in calling social services to see if they mind speaking with her. But really if she is not receptive there is nothing to be done. First, just because it creeps you out doesn't mean that there is something wrong. And even if it were to meet the definition of mental illness, in most states one has a right to live with it as long as no danger is posed to the person or society.

Now I don't think creeping you out is a serious threat. And perhaps this woman isn't hoarding a thing. For all you know she has a business. Maybe she sends them overseas for fun or profit. At any rate someone probably finds the "junk" useful. And since it was thrown away the original owner really doesn't have a claim (outside perhaps some privacy concerns that should be addressed with a shredder).

I am reminded of when I was stationed at Ft Knox in the 80s. Most any day our dumpster would be picked over by two or three different "divers." One guy became pretty well known and some soldiers would save good stuff for him. He made their day when he came by on his "off" day driving a brand new pickup he at least claimed he paid cash for from diving. For all I know he really did. I kind of hope so if for no other reason then to think that someone got ahead doing something I would have to be desperate to do. But considering the shear amount of diving I suspect he did all right.

As a side note, I now live in a nice neighborhood. The lady across the street (who speaks no English) used to come by each week and pick out the cans from the recycle. And while it seemed somewhat creepy, she really is very nice and has shown that she does care about our children.

racie, I personally, really don't have any concerns over this, but some of the other residents just don't like the idea of this resident going through their garbage. I have no problem with it since I don't put the garbage until I leave in the am, which is 15 minutes before the truck gets there, but I really don't like to see the mess that she makes, even though she eventually cleans it up.

Regarding rules being applied - I NEVER said anything about rules or applying rules here. More than likely, we'll probably just talk to her nicely and see how that goes. We have too many rules now as it is.

Is my concern really for this woman's health and safety? No where in the world did you get this from? I never mentioned anything about her health and safety.

Regaring private property and signage - We have had some troublesome teenagers hanging around the pool in the woods, drinking beer and smoking dope in the past. The signs actually DO work and the police can't throw them off the property unless the signs are present. They otherwise have no recourse.

AGain - I never said anything about developing a rule@!!!!

REALLY? You actually posted about her health/safety... "(What a good way to cary in roaches, bedbugs and other varmits into your own home)... "

Developing a rule... "Most of the residents are upset that this neighbor is rummaging through their trash and are asking is there is any way that we can curtail her behavior. " How on earth are you going to curtail her behavior without instituting a new rule?

How are you going to talk to her? I suggested it previously, and you said she really didn't speak very good English, but now it's a potential plan? (One that I WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT)

While reviewing your previous posts... This one just made me laugh out loud..."You would have to see the video..." Seriously????? Your members/owners have so little to do with their time, that they actually videotaped this little old lady???? Not directed at you personally, but jeeez oh man.

I know about no trespassing signs, etc, and how cops can't do anything unless they're there, but this little old lady dumpster diver is ON HER OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY if you want to use that argument. Bums/homeless...they'll be gone before anyone can even call the cops. Teenagers...isn't that what they do (woods drinking beer?) I know that's what I did.

Finally, my comments are not directed at you PERSONALLY, so let's not turn this into a big thing. You just get the brunt of my comments because you're the representative for your association. I'm not implying that YOU are concerned about image...but that's what I feel is at the root of this issue.

My own association is so laid back, and we're pepple who work during the day, and we do NOT have a lot of rules/regs/etc. I read about associations who regulate the display of the American flag or Service Stars, or the color of the blinds, or who will fine you if you leave your garbage cans out more than 2 hours after the garbage company comes... It just makes me feel sorry for those people who have nothing better to do.

Others, please don't start flaming me just because we don't "protect our property values" as rigorously as you do. WE do...just not in the same way. Plus, it's easy for me to get up on my high horse...I think I have an ideal situation...small, community oriented, friendly... Except for our financial issues, compliance problems, etc...

Whatever. Trying to help, but since I disagree with you/your owners, I guess you can't have a civil conversation. Goodbye.

Robert1 - You're another one with too much time on your hands. Just don't respond to my postings.. Thanks.

You're another that needs a new hobby. No love here. .. Just seeing too many assumptions and too many people that can't read the postings.

I read the postings.

You obviously have issues with wanting people to just simply agree with you.

What you described this woman doing is a far far cry from either hording OR OCD.

You wanted to present a bias against her, but it didn't work, and now you're annoyed that we most certainly can read and comprehend what your problem is.

If you had any leadership skills at all you would tell the people complaining to find something important to get all up in arms about instead of railing petty and juvenile comments towards those of us who don't agree with you.

Mike, I'll save you the time and freely admit I too have too much time on my hands but in your original post you stated: Most of the residents are upset that this neighbor is rummaging through their trash and are asking is there is any way that we can curtail her behavior. We're checking with the Property Manager and the Police at this time. I'm not so sure that you can say that the garbage is in the public domain since it's really private property (common area) owned by the HOA, but we'll see. And asked: Any ideas on this?

Well what do you know; we gave you our ideas about it using the information you gave to us. If you are really bound and determined to curtail this lady's activities even though you're not really sure what they are; you can probably do it with stuff you already have in the CC&R's. For the record I believe she has every right to do this as long as she cleans up and puts everything she doesn't take back in the receptacles.

But if you really want to slap her down, here goes. How about the nuisance clause? The argument could be made that she is creating a nuisance however temporary. What about running a business out of her unit? If she is making money from what she is doing then it could be argued she might be violating that clause since she is doing her "work" on the common area. We also have a hazardous waste clause in our documents that could be brought to bear.

Oh one more thing and I'll voluntarily move on without you even having to ask. After you put a stop to her "outrageous" behavior; don't be surprised to find the groups we suggested you contact to help actively coming after the HOA for violating her rights and to find the local "Action News" doing a story on how the HOA is mistreating an elderly immigrant trying to survive by dumpster diving.

Mike, I'm trying to do what I always do....stay civil. Your replies to some of the regular posters here are so mean-spirited and downright rude.

YOU are NOT the "monitor" of this site and you have NO authority to tell ANYONE to not post; and to tell someone they have "too much time on their hands" goes against the purpose of this site.

You have less than 100 posts and I would guess that several of them are criticizing those who have THOUSANDS. I'm sure your response post to this one will be to tell me "sit down and shut up".

Every association has one of you....the neighborhood bully. Always telling people that their opinions are worthless.

You're a sad, sad case...

Guess you really don't know much about dumpster divers, do you?

Dumpster Diving is not just for repurposing items. Some do it for food, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VlFJsuBjA0

And this is hardly confined to old ladies from Southeast Asia (though, again, in their culture, this is a very common practice).

Dumpster Diving Meetup Groups

http://dumpsterdiving.meetup.com/

For this lady, this paragraph from Wikipedia (not my usual go-to info source, but it has a fairly decent article about Dumpster Diving):

Residential buildings tend to throw away very little usable food or "new" items that could not be sold, but sometimes are a good source of clothing, furniture, appliances, and other housewares. Because some people find it easier to dispose of an item rather than donating or recycling, the dumpster diver tends to be the last chance to keep items out of a landfill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumpster_diving

Hmmm... sound familiar?

MikeS: "She meticulously goes through everyone's trash (which is on common area) in the morning before the trash truck comes, sorting papers, old t-shirts, hand bags, planters, and buckets etc. Some of the stuff goes in her home and she's seen filling up her car with a lot of the garbage."

My suggestion to Mike and his "concerned" neighbors is to stop throwing away items that can be repurposed if they are that concerned about how her hobby impacts their trash.

Yup, Mary.

The first time I ever heard that expression was in the YouTube video I posted above.

It goes into great detail on people who scarf food items out of grocery store dumpsters.

Oh, I totally agree with you, Mary!

Not my idea of a tasty buffet!

But and here is the big "but," going back to this thread and the original poster's accusation that we are making "assumptions," the entire point of all of my posts in this thread has been: HE and the other residents are making and have made a huge "assumption" about this woman by having their first and only reaction be that she must be some sort of loon, or mentally ill, or needing of Senior Services simply because she sorts through "old t-shirts, hand bags, planters, and buckets etc." without first acknowledging that she may simply be doing this for other, less "mental" reasons.

Now, in the end, since she is elderly and alone more often than not, a visit from Adult Social Services wouldn't necessarily hurt, but not for the reasons laid out above.

No, Mary. The Original Poster is the one who slapped the Obsessive Compulsive label on the lady.

The thing is, I don't for one minute Adult Services should come to see if she has a mental illness, because I truly do not think that is the case.

But since her family doesn't come by as often, it wouldn't hurt for Adult Services to drop by and make sure she is getting along okay, physically and emotionally, getting older and all and being somewhat alone.

That's the only reason I say it couldn't hurt.