Unauthorized property improvements

Started by DennisR2 • 38 replies • 3758 views

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DennisR2 (Nevada)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Hello everyone,

New here...

I have just become a community manager and I have a situation with a property in the community, and I could use some direction advice on where to go with this.

The property in question was apparently purchased a few weeks ago. The owners immediately began working on their yard without first consulting the board of directors, submitting plans for approval, materials to be used, etc.

I sent a violation notice advising them to cease any further development and to submit the required documents for approval. As it turns out, they proceeded to complete the yard improvement project without receiving approval (although they have submitted all required documents to the board, the project has not been approved yet).

I think this is sending a wrong message to the homeowner, in that they feel they can do whatever they please in such a governed community. Does anyone have any experience with these kind of situations, and if so, what type of actions can be taken against the homeowner to enforce this get's corrected and does not occur again? According to thier plans, they have spent $$$$ to make the improvements, so I expect they will be reluctant if the decision is not made in their favor.

I was just informed the home is paid off. So, if the plans are indeed declined and the homeowner does not comply, can the board foreclose on the home or evict them?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Dennis

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

If it is something that would normally be approved, the ACC should approve it and move on. What you can do to correct any unapproved items should be spelled out in the governing documents. You can tell them to remove / change certain item but if they do not comply then most likely the HOA will have to take them to court to force them to comply.

"I was just informed the home is paid off. So, if the plans are indeed declined and the homeowner does not comply, can the board foreclose on the home or evict them?"

This would depend on applicable state law and your CC&R's but I think it's rather extreme to even be considering something like this at this point and time. More than likely you would get a judgment against the H/O ordering them to comply and if they do not comply then you take them back to court and the judge will happily slap them with a contempt violation. If they continue to defy the courts order then you could possibly foreclose and evict them but that is way, way down the road.

I find it a little alarming that as a community manager you do not know how to handle something like this. Maybe it's time to get the books back out or audit some classes to bone-up.

What you can try going forward is something I've seen the BOD's do in other communities. They add a rule under which an H/O can be fined a rather substantial amount ($500 - $1000) for any work done without ACC approval that requires ACC approval under the CC&R's whether it is ultimately approved or not.

(The usual caveats apply check your CC&R's & state law to see if it is allowed in your community.)

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Dennis,
Little can be added to Glen's post. He couldn't be any more right in context or presentation.

If you don't have in place controls and direction in your documents that explain a step by step for situations of matters like this and you don't see that your documents are amended to include them, you are doomed to have to repeat the same problem over again. Each time you handle this as an individual situation you will make decisions that will likely be inconsistent over the long haul.

Glen's advice to settle this, and really what can you do except go to court, (nearly always a bad thing). If I read him right his suggestion is to get this behind you, see that it don't happen again, and keep in mind you are in this for the long haul.

As to the "improvements" that have been done, if that is the correct word, I feel it is a Board matter to decide what they can live with, what is good for the community, the cost of forcing some changes, and can you all afford a court battle. Maybe a meeting with the owners and the Board might reveal some common ground and concessions could be made on both sides. I believe the Board must provide the wise council that can please both sides.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

"I find it a little alarming that as a community manager you do not know how to handle something like this. Maybe it's time to get the books back out or audit some classes to bone-up."

I agree - call a meeting with the president of the Board ASAP and ask for direction. Apparently there are no procedures for violations OR you have not read your documents.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Robert, my advice was if the improvements would normally be approved to OK them and move on. If it is something that normally would not be approved then the H/O needs to be made to bring it into compliance.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Glen,
My suggestion is to arbitrate all the improvements and try to reach a compromise that both could live with. The owner would agree in writing that any further modifications (or whatever) he wants to make, then he must have Board approval. The Board would decide what they can live with and what they can't.
However, if there is any wiggle room, they should take it.
Not knowing exactly this picture in reality, it is still a board decision, and none of us live in an association or town or city that does not govern without compromise at one time or another.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

I find it a little alarming that as a community manager you do not know how to handle something like this. Maybe it's time to get the books back out or audit some classes to bone-up."

GlenL
Not very helpful.

This "IS" the place to ask questions like this. Not every association is as large as yours and has professional volunteers or paid staff living at it to know how to deal with everyday problems such as this. Your elitist comments like this show your ignorance to this man's problem and situation. He may live in an association with 4 houses. An association that size will not have the resources of an association with 5600 houses and thus need a little more guidance.

So, ask away. No question is too odd or too dumb to ask on this forum. Some kind soul will help you, just ignore the trolls.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Steve, I appreciate your comments and I assure you I didn't make mine lightly. I feel I gave the OP reasonable advice on how to handle the problem however the poster identified himself as a "community manager" not a volunteer board member. A community manager in Nevada must have as a minimum 60 hours of instruction in the management of common interest developments and pass a state approved test. A community manager is supposed to guide volunteer BOD's in effectively managing their communities and I find it a little unsettling that a supposed professional:

A. Doesn't know how to enforce a covenant violation.

B. And most important in my mind wants to jump to foreclose on a violator and grab their home without the necessary intervening steps.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

DennisR2 (Nevada)
Posts: 7

Posted:

OK, you guy's called me out! I am not a community manager or anything of the sort... I am actually the homeowner and I apologize for lying. You are all very savvy and there is no need for me to lie anymore.

So... I am in threat over installing sod, a hot tub and street lamp in my yard which used to be crushed rocks. I bought the house on a whim, because my wife and I fell in love with it, and the previous owners assured us that we were "grandfathered in" because the development is 16 years old (when HOA's were less anal, if you will). Funny how NONE of my neighbors have a problem with my improvements, yet the HOA is sending me violation letters left right and center. Should I have read the official CC&R's prior to purchasing the house? YES!!! But I went on the word of the previous owner, who had made some significant outdoor improvements apparently without consulting the association for any of it. I actually feel trapped since the improvements have been made.

What angers me the most, is that I received the initial violation notice the day after my improvements were completed!

What happens if they order me to revert the premises?

Dennis

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

You could try for an after the fact approval, and come up with a plan for a screen (large bushes) around your "improvements" - but if the board says you have to dismantle all of it, you will have learned a valuable lesson. Read the directions (CCRs) and don't count on the word of a seller.

And shame on you for trying to pull the wool over the eyes of this esteemed group

We all knew your story stunk - and you insulted many PMs.

RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DennisR2 on 09/06/2009 12:23 AM
OK, you guy's called me out! I am not a community manager or anything of the sort... I am actually the homeowner and I apologize for lying. You are all very savvy and there is no need for me to lie anymore.

So... I am in threat over installing sod, a hot tub and street lamp in my yard which used to be crushed rocks. I bought the house on a whim, because my wife and I fell in love with it, and the previous owners assured us that we were "grandfathered in" because the development is 16 years old (when HOA's were less anal, if you will). Funny how NONE of my neighbors have a problem with my improvements, yet the HOA is sending me violation letters left right and center. Should I have read the official CC&R's prior to purchasing the house? YES!!! But I went on the word of the previous owner, who had made some significant outdoor improvements apparently without consulting the association for any of it. I actually feel trapped since the improvements have been made.

What angers me the most, is that I received the initial violation notice the day after my improvements were completed!

What happens if they order me to revert the premises?

Dennis

First, if you are dealing with your association board in the same manner that you are dealing with this forum, I'd hope you'd be called on the carpet and be forced to revert back to the way your property was prior to 'improvements'.If you had posted here honestly and truthfully, you would have received the same advice that you did in this dishonest thread.

Bottom line is that you should have read and followed the documents that you agreed to follow when you purchased the property.

I'd say your best option is to become honest and forthright with your association. Hopefully, they will see beyond your actions and truly look and vote based on whether your changes are actual improvements that follow the documents everyone else must follow.

In the future, try truthfulness first

EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148

Posted:

You might get the neighbors who like your improvements to petition the board to change their minds and approve your changes.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

OK Dennis lets try this again from the miscreant's point of view. I would write the Board a letter apologizing for circumventing the process and stating just what you said here: When I bought the house Mr. X assured me that the house was grandfathered and that I didn't need approval to make improvements, I see now that he was lying to make the sale. Promise to sin no more and
offer to work with the BOD to address any concerns they might have including screening the improvements from sight.

If the violation letters are simply because you didn't get approval first this should work; if they have a problem with a specific item that's tougher and you might end up having to make some changes. If that is the case you can try to enlist your neighbors help but I wouldn't count on it. Often they will tell you one thing hoping to maintain the friendship while telling the BOD something else entirely. Like when your spouse asks you - "Do these pants make me look fat?" There is the honest answer and the answer that starts the war.

If the BOD objects to say the hot tub, you might roam the neighborhood and take pictures of any existing hot tubs. (From the street or common area, don't trespass that can land you in bigger trouble.) Then you can fairly ask the BOD why them and not me.

P.S. It never ceases to amaze me that in this day and age if you buy a $1000.00 used car you have to sign a piece of paper stating that there were no promises made by the salesman that are not included in the contract. Yet buy a $100,000.00 + home and people are willing to take someone's word on something.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

There is the honest answer and the answer that starts the war.

Oops, I meant: There is the tactful answer and the answer that starts the war.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Glen, I'm all with you on the above post except for two (what I consider very important) points.

First, even if the neighbors weren't telling him he didn't look fat in those jeans and truly had not problem with the improvements, if the improvements violate any of the governing documents then that's just too bad what the neighbors like and don't like.

That's why the governing documents generally run with the land and aren't premised on the thumbs up or thumbs down of current residents. What one neighbor may like, another moving in several years down the road may not. And that new owner should be able to rely on the CC&Rs that X, Y or Z is not permitted, without running into a situation where the previous owner said "what the hell, okay by me" over something not allowed.

The only time it matters what the neighbors think is when there are enough of like-minded neighbors who comprise the requisite number of members who can approve an amendment to make changes to any specific restriction.

The second thing I have a teeny problem with is the idea that he go around and photograph similar "infractions" and somehow use the defense, "why them and not me"?

It's very likely that the other infractions are already in violation notice hell. Or that they existed before a restriction was adopted and truly are grandfathered in.

My guess, though, in this case is that the sticky wicket is probably just the moving forward without permission aspect. If he follows the bulk of your advice, Glen, then a reasonable board would work with him and admonish him to never do that again.

It's also possible that they may have fines or penalty fees associated with beginning a project without prior approval, which he should most definitely pay.

Now, directed to the Original Poster on this thread:

One of the most important reasons for getting approval of plans first, before step one of any project is begun, is to save yourself the hassle and cost of having to either tear down or revise the project to comply with existing standards.

I feel for you if you have to tear down or engage in costly retrofitting of your project, but that is the price to pay when you don't follow the requirements.

I know that in our Metro area, if someone does not get proper permissions or permits from the Zoning Department, and an inspector comes out and denies or does not approve the project, not only will that eager beaver have to tear down the improvement at his/her own expense, but most likely pay rather hefty fines in the process.

Not abiding by the restrictions in the governing documents of an HOA are pretty much the same.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Michele, Mary, Donna, Glen, to name a few all have good instincts, are you are comfortable carrying this thread on? I am very uneasy that fool me once, your fault, fool me twice, my fault. I am sorry, I'll pass on any further comment.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RickW on 09/06/2009 5:41 AM
and the previous owners assured us that we were "grandfathered in" because the development is 16 years old (when HOA's were less anal, if you will).

Our development is over 12 years old. I'm sure people moving out will say all sorts of silly things, especially in this climate trying to sell a home.

But for the record, HOAs weren't any less "anal" 12 years ago or 16 years ago. If the development has CC&Rs going back 16 years, they no doubt have a pretty decent track record of enforcement. The HOA doesn't make up what's in the Deed Restrictions (CC&Rs). The developer creates them before even a single home is sold (usually). The over-riding purpose of most CC&Rs is to allow for the property values to remain at a certain appreciable level.

I do find it quite odd that the previous owners would have said "grandfathered in." Very odd language at the time of sale, indeed, if there was nothing in violation of the restrictions.

Quote:

Posted By RickW on 09/06/2009 5:41 AM
Should I have read the official CC&R's prior to purchasing the house? YES!!! But I went on the word of the previous owner. . .

Well, at least you acknowledge that you should have read the CC&Rs. But any verbal communication from a previous owner will not make a bit of difference in your defense.

"Ignorance of the law. . ." and all that.

One of our new residents who put up an above-ground pool learned that lesson the hard way. They not only did not seek permission beforehand, they refused to take it down when they were notified of the violation. Their claim? Their builder told them that CC&Rs were just "suggestions" and that nobody even enforces them so they didn't need to pay any attention to them. A court order from a judge to remove the pool convinced them otherwise. It was a very costly mistake for them as they had to pay not only their own lawyers, but ours as well, and that's not even taking into consideration the cost of buying and then having to remove and dispose of a perfectly new above-ground pool.

Quote:

Posted By RickW on 09/06/2009 5:41 AM
What happens if they order me to revert the premises?

IF they order that you revert to the previous state, they more than likely have solid justification for it in the governing documents and your improvements are not in line with what is generally approved or acceptable according to the governing document, and you will have to comply. You could try to fight it, but if the association is anything like ours, they will most likely win in court, just as we have done on several occasions. (see above pool removal example)

Again, this is the reason why HOAs require pre-approval. Not to be bastards, but to try to prevent an out-of-compliance situation that could well cost the homeowner extra time and money, and the association time and money in order to compel compliance if the homeowner is not cooperative.

RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/06/2009 4:09 PM

Posted By RickW on 09/06/2009 5:41 AM
and the previous owners assured us that we were "grandfathered in" because the development is 16 years old (when HOA's were less anal, if you will).

Quote:

Posted By RickW on 09/06/2009 5:41 AM
Should I have read the official CC&R's prior to purchasing the house? YES!!! But I went on the word of the previous owner. . .

Quote:

Posted By RickW on 09/06/2009 5:41 AM
What happens if they order me to revert the premises?

I don't mean to be picky...I just want to clarify that those quotes are quotes from the original poster. I did not post those statements, I quoted them prior to my response.
Rick

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

You're absolutely correct. I was unable to edit when I realized what I did.

I'm sorta hoping the original poster will realize it!

Sorry.

DennisR2 (Nevada)
Posts: 7

Posted:

No help whatsoever. The very fact that you all feel it reasonable for an HOA to attempt foreclosure on a paid off home over unapproved installation of 450 Sq ft. of sod, really shows your true colors.

I feel the board just can't wait to get a hold of my home and sell it over this ridiculous violation... afterall, the property is mortgage free.

Dare I suggest.... control freaks at hand?

RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/06/2009 9:31 PM
You're absolutely correct. I was unable to edit when I realized what I did.

I'm sorta hoping the original poster will realize it!

Sorry.

Michele,

No problem at all.

Thanks
Rick

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DennisR2 on 09/07/2009 5:15 AM
No help whatsoever. The very fact that you all feel it reasonable for an HOA to attempt foreclosure on a paid off home over unapproved installation of 450 Sq ft. of sod, really shows your true colors.

I feel the board just can't wait to get a hold of my home and sell it over this ridiculous violation... afterall, the property is mortgage free.

Dare I suggest.... control freaks at hand?

Of course you would hold this position. Because you apparently never had any serious intention of regarding the governing documents at all. You already made the statement that you and your wife bought the property "on a whim."

If it's true that it's only 450 square feet of sod that is the problem, then it would seem to me that would be a no-brainer to bring the sodded area back into compliance. On the contrary, you appear to be the control freak in this scenario in that you feel regardless of the binding documents that you purchased your home with, you should be able to do just whatever you want since the previous owner said so.

So I'm guessing that it's considerably more than simply 450 sq ft of sod that's the problem. And you had the intention that you were gonna show the HOA board "who's boss."

I don't know of a single HOA that desires to take ownership of any properties just for the hell of it. Nor of any that desire to be in the realty business.

It's an absurd conjecture. Especially in this economy.

But when homeowners dig their heels in, and the board is charged with maintaining the integrity of the documents and the property values of all the homes, things may get a little tricky.

The question to you, then, is, are you willing to lose your home over 450 square feet of sod?

PS: It would be really nice if we could get the legitimate story regarding this one, but given your track record with us already, it probably won't happen. My guess is you were and are less than forthcoming to your board as well.

Ah, well, Robert, it looks like you hit the nail on the head with this one!

MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432

Posted:

Quote:

I can't find where anyone said foreclosure was simply reasonable -- in fact, Glen clearly suggested that would be extreme as a first resort. Another post suggested if you work with your in a reasonable way, then a reasonable Board should work with you, and another suggested a reasonable Board should slap your hand and perhaps fine you, provided you don't do this again.

Whether or not a mortgage is paid off is not relevant -- that's between you and your mortgage bank (which could foreclose on an unpaid mortgage), and foreclosure by the HOA is about whether you owe unpaid fines, followed by liens, which you don't pay off. I'm sure it's illegal and practically impossible in all or most states to foreclose on a home where no money is owed to the party seeking foreclosure.

Yes, it sounds unreasonable to seek foreclosure out the gun, and I saw no one saying otherwise. Foreclosure may be a remedy for continued or repeated violations and refusal to pay penalties. That could happen if your Board or MC insisted on penalties that you found extremely onerous. That could be the case if they levied very steep penalties (such as complete restoration of something that was expensive for you and otherwise or historically acceptable to them) or if you found any penalties unacceptable. That could happen if either side is completely inconsiderate or completely blocked by pride. What penalties have they levied? What were their exact and complete complaints? Has there been any attempt on either side to compromise?

HOA's are about control, for the benefit of the Members, who all agree to that control when they move in. You agreed to that control. You said you have a gripe with conflicting disclosures on you home sale, which is not the fault of the HOA and not their responsibility to cure.

Control should work reasonably well to everyone's benefit, if exercised in accordance with the HOA's governing documents and the consensus of the community. It becomes a problem when the Board or an individual homeowner act as if they alone represent the interests of the community (or are above it).

And after playing deceptive games on your first post, you should be grateful for any further replies.

DennisR2 (Nevada)
Posts: 7

Posted:

At this stage of the thread, I no longer expect any further replies since to me, it is obvious that everyone involved in these forums and associations is strictly "by the book".

I felt disrespected when the association sent me a nasty letter to start. My understanding is now clear -- it is really very simple; I live in a community that imposes its own authority into my life in a rude demeanor to start, and no matter what -- there is no compromise.

And yes, I am looking at foreclosure directly in the face when the board begins fining me $350 a day for the violation. Unbelievable... they force the homeowner into an impossible situation by way of fines. Eventually I will comply, or pay the fines. If not, they get their lien and my house while they are at it.

I'm truly sorry for having insulted everyone who has participated in reading and replying to my posts. I should have known better...the homeowner is always wrong...especially when all neighbors actually APPRECIATE the improvements I have made. A neighbor adjacent to me suggested the violation as being absurd...and he is a lawyer who feels this can be fought. (especially since the previous owner had ripped out about 500 sq. ft of sod already installed from the NEW CONSTRUCTION sale of the property -- how ironic.

I guess I just have to get used to being controlled like this...for instance, I went out to get my morning paper and was totally thrilled to see a (shiny and red) $25 speeding ticket for going .5 miles above the speed limit the previous afternoon; that would be 15.5 in a 15.0 zone. Such difficult times we live in right now, huh? We just gotta find anyway possible to squeeze out those pennies.

What happened to the days where people used to take pride in making their properties look nice? I grew up in a community where there was no such governance over anyone, and each homeowner took great care of their home.

Well, now I know how it is...

Lesson learned.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

You voluntarily bought your house on a whim.

You voluntarily took the word of the buyer. (Supposedly)

You voluntarily made changes that required ACC approval without it.

You voluntarily ignored the letters to cease or to return the property to its original state.

Oh yeah, you voluntarily lied to us trying to generate sympathy and yet somehow you feel you are the victim.

At any point in the process you could have done the right thing and not had any of this happened but I do thank you for posting as this can now be used as a cautionary tale. Or as my good friend Forest Gump would say: "Stupid is as stupid does."

P.S. Unless the neighbor is willing to work pro bono he could just be telling you what you want to hear to get the work. Also there was a case in CA a few years ago where a homeowner racked up in the neighborhood of $250,000 in fines on principle. The judge in the case ruled he owed the fines because he could have stopped them from accruing at any time by simply following the rules.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

I can't imagine why a homeowner would even pretend that organization stewards would somehow not be "by the book" people. The reason we are on our boards and do try to maintain the integrity of the documents is because we do care about our properties and the values of the same, and, believe it or not, the values of the properties of our neighbors.

I've lived in developments that have no covenants, too. It was a great neighborhood at one point in time, with people who also "took pride" in their homes.

Then a few people moved in who didn't care so much. My next door neighbor was a car repair "hobbyist." I kid you not, the man hung engine blocks from his trees. Another neighbor was a semi-truck driver. He had at least one semi cab in his driveway at all times. Once those neighbors took hold, others, who cared about their property values, left as soon as they could. What type of homeowner do you think replaced them? Yup. Ones who had the same mentality as the engine block guy and the semi-trailer guy. We were very lucky to get any decent appreciation for our home by the time we moved. The area is now in what is called "transition" stage. What was once a fairly upscale neighborhood is now on the precipice of marginal to lowscale. Very sad.

What makes the difference in neighborhoods? An active organization that has binding covenants that are consistently enforced.

I also have to chuckle at your characterization of the cease-and-desist letter to you as rude and nasty. If they had said "please" and "thank you" would you really have felt less "disrespected"? That's rhetorical, by the way. We all know you would have been bent out of shape no matter what.

It's human nature to feel defensive when we get told we're doing something we shouldn't be doing, no matter how it's couched.

Additionally, written communications carry absolutely no non-verbals. So whatever characterization you place on the content is based all inside you and not on or in the sender.

So unless they actually called you a name or literally insulted you -- "Hey, moron, stop your crappy project right now or we're gonna kick yer ***." -- my guess is that what you received was an official cease and desist that is pretty much the same no matter who it gets sent to. In other words, "it ain't personal, it's bidness."

You just felt angry because you got called out for doing something you should not have been doing.

Now you imply that if they had just been NICER in their communications, all this could have been avoided? Really? You would have complied if they had just begged you nicely?

Yes, this is a lesson learned for you. Covenants are binding. If they are not consistently enforced they soon become impotent. So that means that everyone is subject to the "book," even people whose neighbors like the changes they are making, even if those changes are technically against the rules. The "book" is there to prevent arbitrary, unsupported "changes" that in the long run can erode property values.

You do have some control over that "book," by the way. If you can convince enough of the residents that certain things should be changed, then go "by the book" and get them changed. Almost all HOAs have provisions for amendments. It generally requires a certain number of people to agree to the amendment. The instructions for how that can be done resides in those CC&Rs you decided to ignore and not read or pay any attention to.

Our association has had at least 10 amendments made since I've lived here.

It's doable. Go for it.

DennisR2 (Nevada)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Had a meeting with the board of directors today. It seems that there is a clause in the CC&R's that deems it acceptable for anyone in the community "to revert their exterior landscape to a prior state that has been previously approved by the board".

I have since submitted the application for record purposes only. I am no longer being pursued by this corrupt community manager, and all is settled.

Knew I was both right and wrong on this one!

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Dennis,

Thus far, I've only been reading this thread, but now feel I must respond to your last message in which you said: "I am no longer being pursued by this corrupt community manager". The manager shouldn't be doing anything that the board hasn't instructed him/her to do. If the BOD is letting the manager "run the show" with little or no input from them, then you have more problems than originally thought. But, even so, why do you refer to the manager as being "corrupt"? That's a pretty heavy accusation!

JS3 (Oregon)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Michele,

The letters typically aren't from the "board" but rather from an HOA management company or HOA attorney under the pretext of representing the board. Those latter organizations are very much interested in threatening the homeowner with foreclosure in order to extract collection fees, late fees, attorney fees, fines, etc. In fact, it's one of the lynchpins of Community Associations Institute management company and attorney members. The HOA management companies encourage this type of activity and usually have an aligned attorney to immediately point the HOA Board to as if the attorney was an independent party.

One thing the management companies and HOA attorneys do to try to facilitate this racket is known as the "priority of payment" scam whereby the management company claims a "fine" is owed for a "violation" and re-characterizes the assessment payment to be applied to "fines" and other fees generated out of thin air. The re-characterization leaves the homeowner in arrears on assessments which automatically generates another collection fee for the management company and an invitation for the HOA attorney to charge for writing a letter to the homeowner. The homeowner is then labeled a "deadbeat" and to add insult to injury is often denied voting rights. CAI promotes the priority of payment scam indirectly by opposing the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act without stating the true reason why they oppose this Act. In the 9th Circuit (including Nevada where the OP was), CAI lost this argument but HOAs still engage in the practice. The HOA attorney will also often agree to represent the HOA in these actions on a contingency basis and you can bet the HOA attorneys are anxious to either a) extort as much as possible from you by threatening you with the loss of your home, or b) extract the equity out of your home for themselves or affiliates through an HOA foreclosure under the pretext of representing the HOA. In many cases the HOA attorney will offer a "settlement" again under the pretext of representing the HOA, that will obligate the homeowner to pay significant sums of money that will first be applied to the HOA attorney. The HOA will be the last, if ever, to be paid. If you are trying to protect the members of the HOA rather than the vendors of the HOA, then you should refuse to ever agree to one of these schemes which will undoubtedly be recommended by a management company.

Although you state that you are unaware of a single HOA that desires to take ownership of the property, it's really the vendors that profit from doing this and they do it quite frequently. In fact it is standard operating procedure in the sunbelt states for sure. I think there is a lady in Houston that keeps track of these practices on a website for the Houston area.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Rich/Nancy:

Are you back?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

I finally figured out who Rich/Nancy/JS3 reminds me of. I had a co-worker who would go on for hours about how to opt-out of Social Security and how you didn't really need to pay income tax because it wasn't a valid amendment and even if it was valid you didn't have to pay it because it had the word voluntary in it etc. etc. etc. When the IRS caught up to him they proved just how real and valid it was; took his money, took his home and took his freedom for 18 months. The fact is JS3 if you follow the CC&R's you won't be fined so the CAI Cabal can't steal your money and if you pay your assessments they can't take your home.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460

Posted:

AND...if you don't buy in an association/covenent community, you don't have to care about any of this!

Again...(I KNOW Glen did not take this as a comment to him)...Loser, go away.

DennisR2 (Nevada)
Posts: 7

Posted:

In reference to the last direct reply to me:

Our community manager has been targeting many homes in this community on her own -- why? I don't know, but I speculate that the board just doesn't seem to care about the core values of the system anymore.

I am not here to campaign against the purpose of these organizations, but I sincerely believe that with over 25 foreclosures in my community of 150, this company is desperately trying to recover the lost funds. They maybe trying to muster up enough funds just to stay afloat by attacking the residents for every little thing they feel might yield some sort of extra revenue.

You all certainly can't know what's going on in my community, but when my neighbor's begin letting loose with me, I seem to NOT be the only recent target. My next door neighbor apparently received a fine for having a pick-up truck parked in the driveway over night, while the people across the street have two "monster trucks" parked in the driveway apparently received no violation at all.

It is becoming clear to me that something is not right here.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Dennis,
You are asking a lot here.
First you reference some vague reference and then respond and expect who ever is going to read your post to go back and see what you are talking about.
****************************************************
This is the last response directed to you; by Mary

Thus far, I've only been reading this thread, but now feel I must respond to your last message in which you said: "I am no longer being pursued by this corrupt community manager". The manager shouldn't be doing anything that the board hasn't instructed him/her to do. If the BOD is letting the manager "run the show" with little or no input from them, then you have more problems than originally thought. But, even so, why do you refer to the manager as being "corrupt"? That's a pretty heavy accusation!

**************************************************
It is now 5:42 am and I have the time to do this........right now.

Nothing or little in your post addresses constructively anything that Mary said. If you really think this management company is operating out side the law and the Board is condoning or abetting it, why not contact the police or civil authorities. Suppose they are: what do you expect us to do? Honestly, we have no authority or desire to intercede and make your problems disappear and all the bad guys go to jail. We offer opinions only. Mary's and other posts on this thread offer good advice. What core values are you referring to and what do you think we can do about either your core value or the Boards or the PM. That's your job, you belong to the association.
Off hand, you may have a problem. Where do you think this problem rests? On the PM, on the Board or on the owners? Well, the PM is hired by the Board so the PM is the Boards responsibility, and the Board is elected by the owners so the Board is the owners responsibility.
Are you saying the PM caused 25 owners to not pay their assessments? Are you saying the Board don't pay the PM enough and they are going broke? Are you saying the PM survives on some kind of a kick back from the fines they place on owners. The PM don't have authority to fine anyone, that is a Board authority. So, then, are you saying the Board is fining owners so the PM can make more money?
Look, go to a single member of the Board and discuss this like rational people. The HOA documents are probably not perfect but there is some rational order to them. Identify your real concerns, discuss them and see if you can't reach a compromise.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DennisR2 on 09/12/2009 12:25 AM
trucks" parked in the driveway apparently received no violation at all.

It is becoming clear to me that something is not right here.

Yes. Apparently in some cases, people are violating, and have continued to violate, the governing documents, to which they agreed to abide, and are getting cranky that they are getting caught, or "singled out" as you call it.

You have no idea if the "monster trucks" have been similarly formally noticed, yet you speculate no because. . . why? They haven't said anything to you? They ignore the violation notices and either pay the fines and/or are going to push it as far as they can?

Perhaps they have been notified.

But whether they have or not, if people are not violating the documents, then they won't be getting fines and/or notices of violation.

And, I could be wrong, but isn't it the community manager's job, or at least part of the CM's job, to review for violations?

Or perhaps they operate on complaint-driven only, in which case make a formal complaint against the monster trucks. Maybe nobody has done that yet?

Like you said, we have no idea of knowing what's going on in your development. But then, perhaps we're not the only ones?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

I think I know what Dennis' mindset is. He doesn't like the fact that he was sent violation notices for making landscaping improvements w/o first obtaining permission from the A/C committee. Now it's his goal to find fault with everything the board and manager do even w/o knowing the whole story. It's only his assumption that some members are not being sent violation notices, but that doesn't stop him from asserting that some members are being singled out. It's people like this that the board likes to just ignore. They are generally labeled as PITA's (pains in the ass!). Dennis, get a grip. Come to terms with the fact that you were wrong; you should have requested approval b/4 making those landscaping changes. And, most importantly, your only concern should be your home, not your neighbors'.

DennisR2 (Nevada)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Mary,

Here is one of my previous quotes:

"It seems that there is a clause in the CC&R's that deems it acceptable for anyone in the community "to revert their exterior landscape to a prior state that has been previously approved by the board".

I have since submitted the application for record purposes only."

The issue is now long gone and I am done with it specifically, however it has opened up a door of communication between myself 5 of my closest neighbors.

My neighbors are people that have lived in this community for the past 10 years, and they tell me about how the association has "adjusted its ways" over the last year or so, when all the foreclosures occurred.

It just makes sense do start coming down hard on violators when you are short changed. Is that not how it works? Can someone enlighten me on as to how these associations recoup a lost revenue of 17% every month?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Dennis,

It's a given that the assn is not going to be able to collect on all the delinquencies on homes that are in foreclosure. Therefore, what needs to be done is to add a "bad debt" line item to the budget. Yes, I know, that means all the members of the assn are paying off the "bad debt" but it's just something that cannot be helped. My assn has already written off the $10,000 that was budgeted for this year. The board members need to be educated on how the foreclosure system works and they need to have a good attorney going after the delinquencies that are over 4-6 months old. To just sit back and let it happen will result in the assn losing a lot of money.

Now, regarding your board members. You know there are at least 6 members, including yourself, who are displeased with their actions over the past year. I don't know how many members there are in your assn, but you need to get a large majority who think as you do. The members elected those board members and the members can unseat them if they don't perform as they should. It's called a recall; check your documents and state law to see what the procedure is.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

And I find that you can take any given HOA and any 5 or 6 or even 10 people who will all have their perception of the board, and that perception would vary within the same HOA among different configurations of people.

The truth is, though, that the only thing that they may know is what they hear through the grapevine.

Unless they are on the board themselves, attend every meeting and read every word of every newsletter or communication that comes out, they cannot know how many violation notices are sent in any given week, how much effort has gone into working with people in foreclosure, how many delinquencies that may have been avoided or cut off at the pass, how many liens have been filed, how many residents have been approved for various projects, or how many complaints that have been received that aren't even within the HOAs jurisdiction to handle.

As long as the board isn't bothering them or dealing directly with them, they generally don't give it or any of its activities much of a thought, even on boring days.

If someone's board really is out of control, Mary is absolutely correct. Get with neighbors and follow the appropriate process for handling it, up to and including a recall of the board, if it becomes evident that is necessary.

But, to be blunt, it's just too bad that people get their noses out of shape when they get notified of a violation.

We find that the majority of people who find themselves in an out-of-compliance situation are there unknowingly or unintentionally and cooperate with the board to get into compliance.

But there are always those who take it as a personal affront, believe it has some nefarious roots embedded with it, and then make it their mission to trash, belittle, undermine or otherwise demean the board members for having the audacity to enforce the covenants.

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