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ColleenF1 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Last year our Lakefront's Association Board 'sold' the members on an idea to improve the park/lake area with a new safer pier/catwalk-selling the improvements with statements such as "no changes will be made to lakefront assignments"-basically boats, sailboats, watercrafts will all remain, "this will add value to your home", etc.

Members voted on this improvement project and it was passed. Each member of the association paid a due to have this project completed. The lakefront park area looks great. This year the same Board is trying to take away slips/shore stations to several of the families on this new pier, that have 'grandfathered spots', the same members who were sold on the idea, paid the dues, etc. Right now there is a wait list for boat shore stations and new families to the association want them and want them immediately. They do not want to wait their turn, as all families have done over the last 50+ years. It is very apparent that the Board is taking advantage of the older members of our association.

My questions are:
*Is this legal-to sell an improvement which costs members money, then try to take it away their use of it next year?
*Once something is voted on and grandfathered, can the grandfathered item/topic be up for discussion again? Year after year??
*Can an association vote to take away the assets of other members? i.e. the grandfathered families followed the rules and regs, bought their boats and shore stations, pay their annual dues. If this gets voted and passed what are they to do with their boats/shore stations??

I'm one of the younger members of the association and am appalled at the actions of our Board of Directors and some of the other younger association members. I would not want anyone to take advantage of my older family member and feel their needs to be some steps taken to support our older members. Just want to take the right steps and follow proper procedures.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ColleenF1 on 08/15/2009 7:41 AM

My questions are:
*Is this legal-to sell an improvement which costs members money, then try to take it away their use of it next year?
*Once something is voted on and grandfathered, can the grandfathered item/topic be up for discussion again? Year after year??
*Can an association vote to take away the assets of other members? i.e. the grandfathered families followed the rules and regs, bought their boats and shore stations, pay their annual dues. If this gets voted and passed what are they to do with their boats/shore stations??

I don't know about the legalities, and for that, you really should ask an attorney who specializes in HOA law for your state... Also, I don't know what your founding documents say about these particular pieces of your property... Those caveats given...
1. I guess it would probably be legal, but I would imagine it would require a vote by the membership (documents?). Unethical yes. Legal...not sure, but it's probably legal to TRY.
2. I think once something is grandfathered, it's grandfathered until that home changes owners.
3. Well, if a vote by the membership happens, which I think it would have to be by the membership, and not just the BOD, since it affects all members.

Do they purchase their boat slip, or do they lease it from the association? If it's leased, does the lease agreement say it can be terminated by either side at any time for any reason?
ColleenF1 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 10
Posted:
They do not purchase their boat slip or lease it. The association has boats slips/shore stations and buoys. Once someone moves into the association they are notified that there is a wait list. They can put their names on the list or take a boat shore station or buoy,if available. The grandfathered cases took slips when they were available. Today there are none available which is making new homeowners unhappy--even though they knew that moving in.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Colleen,

Is there a legal document or a board approved resolution which outlines the grandfather clause? How are the slip/shore stations assigned? Does the h/o recieve some documentation stating they have been assigned a slip/shore station and how long it's good for?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Good questions, Mary.

Tracie, I just want to clarify something here. It really depends what is being grandfathered.

In our association, there used to be not restrictions on which side of a fence faced outwards.

Some time after about 10 or so fences were built, the HOA voted on an amendment that would require the finished side of a fence to face out.

Those houses that had already built with the finished side facing in were grandfathered. However, once the fence requires maintenance or rebuilding it MUST conform with the new restrictions.

Other grandfather clauses may have additional stipulations on when the grandfathered element must conform as well, and it may not always be when the home changes owners.

Though I would imagine in this case it would mean a change of ownership.

Quote:
Posted By TracieS on 08/15/2009 7:51 AM

2. I think once something is grandfathered, it's grandfathered until that home changes owners.

ColleenF1 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 10
Posted:
There is nothing in our by-laws about a grandfather clause. Our latest rules and regulations state nothing in general about 'grandfathering'. The only thing in record is probably old meeting minutes from years ago.

The slip/shore stations are based on a wait list (the secretary is supposed to log the request and turn it in to our pier chairman). Basically the longer you've lived in the association the higher up you are on a wait list.

A revised rule states that "members are entitles to one boat space per street address. A buoy and a ramp (to provide means to get to buoy), are considered one space. Permanent space assignments presently in existence are approved."

Spots, once given, are considered permanent. Until ownership of homes is changed or people can't afford to keep up their boats, then a spot opens up.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I can see both sides:

1. Everyone is reqired to pay, but just a few get the "perks" year after year. There ought to be a lottery for the slots for x amount of years, then a change over, so the "perk" can be enjoyed by all.

2. Families that have had slots should not be forced to give them up just because of improvements.

IMHO, only those who used this "exclusive" perk should have been required to pay for the improvements. The board was wrong to assess ALL for the use of just a few.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Sorry, but I do not agree with Susan's opinion that only those who are enjoying the "perk" should have paid for the improvements. These slots are for all the members but because there aren't enough to go around they are given out on a first-come, first-serve basis. At some point in time use of the slots will change. It's no different than having a swimming pool or tennis court that is only used by some. In an HOA, the amenities are there for everyone to enjoy, if some choose not to use them or if some have to wait their turn to use them, that doesn't mean they are not obligated to maintain them. That's not the way mandatory HOAs are set up. It's more the way a voluntary HOA is set up -- you join if you want to use the amenities.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Colleen,

Since the new rule says "Permanent space assignments presently in existence are approved" how is this going to change anything? Those who currently have the space assignments will retain them until they don't want them anymore or until they move. How is this taking anything away from these members.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ColleenF1 on 08/15/2009 11:03 AM
There is nothing in our by-laws about a grandfather clause. Our latest rules and regulations state nothing in general about 'grandfathering'.

There was nothing in our governing documents about grandfathering, either. I doubt many governing documents have grandfathering language out of the starting gate.

The grandfathering comes into play when we make an amendment. Once the amendment is made, if there exists any property owners who are now out of compliance as a result of the new rule, we do not then go back and make everyone change. Depending on the rule change, we will grandfather in either until the property changes hands, then it reverts, or until maintenance is required on the item in question, then it must be changed to conform.

But because I don't really see anything that materially changed, then I don't understand how "grandfathering" would work in this case.

I like the idea of lotteries every XX number of years.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Michele,

I agree! I cannot see how grandfathering applies to this. Grandfathering occurs when a rule changes. Those who would now be in violation of the new rule are grandfathered (granted an exception to the new rule).
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Appears to me that IF there is a resolution to this, it has to be established by past records, evidence, deeds, brochures, advertising, sales notices, etc, etc.

Who owns the lake? How do you get official permission to build a dock, pier, put out a buoy, etc, etc. If you have any old time owners inquire from them about their deeds and if there was any riders filed in the court house about all this stuff. If I read right someone wants to stop playing five card draw and now wants to play seven card draw. Some games allow this, others do not. Do you have a management co? Do you have a lawyer on record? Is this discussed at Board Meetings, are they open? Have you all had a Town-hall about it. Town-Hall meetings are not new, by a couple hundred years or more.

In our association (condo) and in our umbrella association and with a developer, we are always hearing of how the old farts have screwed up things and how new blood is needed. I am one of the old folks and I agree new blood is needed, but don't new blood with a twenty % commitment. Don't bust in and make changes and walk out the door. And do not attempt to screw people because they are old. Nothing is that important and if you think it is, then you are just not smart enough to figure out the best way to do what you want to do. If this a issue between old and young, get real and sit down and discuss the problem, agree to disagree but don't be hard headed and don't be dictatorial.

Good night Gracie!

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