Use of HOA funds

Anyone have experience with boards using HOA funds for non-HOA purposes? For example, a number of residents start a little league ball team and call themselves the "Community Name" Baseball team. The board then decides to fund the activities of this group. Comments please. By the way, I say this is not what residents signed up for when they moved into the community.

Jack,

I agree with you. IMO, what the BOD is doing is inappropriate. An HOA is not a civic assn. Your CCRs should state exactly what the assessment income is to be used for. Social activities may be stated, but this is not a social activity and it does not benefit every member of the assn.

BTW, I love baseball! I'm a former Little League board member and Team Mom; my husband umpired for many, many years. I just finished watching a LL play-off game on TV and am looking forward to watching the LL World Series!!

I appreciate hearing from you folks on this issue. Our board is doing a great job in all other areas but needs to be more selective about HOA funds use.
There is no line item and no association rules do not provide for such use of funds.
The Virginia Property Owners' Association Act states "Except as expressly authorized in this chapter, in the declaration, or otherwise provided by
law, no association may make an assessment or impose a charge against a lot or a lot owner unless
the charge is a fee for services provided or related to use of the common area". I have served in every volunteer capacity in the association in
past years and am one of only three homeowners who is vocalizing concerns about this issue.

Jack,

Perhaps only 3 are "vocalizing" their concerns; however, it's unknown how many really don't agree with the the board's actions but don't want to go on record with their objections. I don't know how large your HOA is, but I can see this evolving into a really big problem if the board were to fund all the activities all the children in the HOA are involved in. Why just this Little Leaguee; why not Johnny's basketball team or Jimmie's H.S. Football team, etc., etc.? This reminds me of a thread several months back where an HOA board made a donation to a board member's church. I live in an HOA of 1,700 members. I'm sure you can imagine how many churches might be represented in my HOA; or how many little league teams or other sports teams. If you do it for one you open the door to do it for all -- everyone pays the same assessment and should be afforded the same services.

To all,
If this cost being appropriated is to be used for Billding community relations. then let the community that wants to contribute do so. If you did not live in a private community do you think baseball teams would not get funded? Use the same methoid other communites use, bake sale, car wash drives, etc, etc. To me, this is over the top and probably illegal under the documents. If a community, private or otherwise decides to maintain a ball field or recreation facility, like a pool, etc, I see no problem with that, but if the BOD decides to take association money and donate it to Goodwill, there is a problem. If owners want to canvas the neighborhood and collect money for goodwill..no problem. If you live in a HOA and run a business somewhere like a restaurant and want to use the publicity to fund a baseball team, have at it.

You know, HOA by and large have a myriad of problems and financial demands. These have to be met first..........period. A reserve fund is one of them oft neglected. If the association is so perfect they think the importance of funding a ball team replaces these demands then that is plain wrong and if they really have any extra money, it should be returned to the members.

I certainly like the concern and support the effort to build community spirit and like the idea of a ball team being sponsored and the name of the Assosiation being displayed and would contribute to the effort, but I would not support the idea of the BOD deciding whether to use HOA money, I don't think they have the legal authority.

Jack is back to thank all of you for your comments. All of you make great points. They all mean a lot to me. I feel very strongly about this. I support the Food Bank, I give to the Goodwill, I support community goodwill efforts, but I fully oppose taking money from people for such things against their will. Using HOA funds does exactly that. It is in reality robbery.

Michelle
Our governing documents do not mention good will causes. They also do not mention promoting goodwill of the community. As much as I appreciate the fact that my children can be members of a baseball team, I realize that financing of that team, if endorsement is not taken on by some organization, is my responsibility and that of the other parents. I never even considered asking my neighbors (or forcing my neighbors) to finance my son's baseball team when I lived in non-HOA communities. We have elderly residents here who have issues with funding such activities and rightfully so. We have a welcoming committee for new residents but this serves all residents. We have had community gatherings funded by the HOA. This was not a concern because everyone could attend. In cases where attendance must be limited we have charged a fee to cover the costs. MaryA1 got to the heart of my concern - that this use of funds will open the gates for anyone who needs funds to finance their cause- whether it be a club, a charity, a church or whatever. I have no concern about the use of everyone's money to benefit everyone from whom money (assessments) is taken. This forum is very interesting and I really appreciate everyone's comments.

Jack,
Thank you for telling us the rest of the story. We don't get enough of that around here.
Maybe by the time spring training rolls around, your community will have canvassed your neighborhood and found private businesses to sponsor the ball team. The you can come back and give us the rest, rest of the story. --------------------------HOA Pirates win season opener--------------15-2.

I don't know the whole story..... but it sounds to me like one of the officers or board members decided to fund their son's team with HOA dollars. Not acceptable. You, the homeowner are paying for this team out of your dues.

If you don't like it, voice your concern to the board and officers.

Personally, I would be upset if my dues were used for anything other than HOA items.

I think that if a large group of homeowners wants to fund a social group (ie. baseball team) then they should organize it and gather funds independently of the HOA. Nothing is stopping them, and these types of things should be encouraged, but not at the expense of everyone else (IMO).

The other alternative is to have a vote by the membership and pass an annual assessment in the budget collecting XX dollars to fund the social group.

Jack,

I would say, it is proper and prudent to never use any HOA money that was collected or serviced by the association. My opinion even a vote of the members does not allow for expenditure of any funds without 100% of the owners. This goes back to my conviction that there should be one vote per unit, one member holding the vote on the board. If you say each owner can hold a vote you end up with maybe one unit with multiple owners hold the vote disproportionally. Now we want to use that board vote to approve expenditures out side the association. I say you can't do this because your board does not speak for each unit. The board vote becomes a vote of members and non-members. If you wanted to make a change in your documents that required 100% of the vote, how could all the Board members vote?

In reality, our POA is separate from any social groups formed within the association. The golf groups, the tennis groups, Audubon, Ladies Clubs, Boating clubs. If they want to support anything, they have no restrictions, HOA/Condo charters are filled with restrictions and they are not free wheeling. I would also caution the board must justify any monies expended. The only justification is support of the whole, not the whims of the Board members.

MD,
I concede, your shoehorn is much larger than mine.

I just wanted to say that all I wanted to do is thank all of you for your opinions on my original issue "Use of HOA funds". Looks like I opened up a whole new , exciting and informative discussion.
Thanks again.

I know.

Depressing.

It's very easy, Michael. As a candidate I will represent the best interests of the association, in accordance with the governing documents. As a board member, I will do the same.

If I felt very strongly that the current board member is not doing that.

Why would that be contradictory?

Michele and Robert,

I respect your views of how you campaign as a candidate and then serve as a board members. I know Michael's circumstances and he know mind. Robert, our Board, PM would disagree with them not being Judge, jury and Executioneer, because they have legal counsel to back them. They threaten a lawsuit against me for challenging how they conducted an election. I have no fines, have always paid my dues and have caused no damage to any property within the community. I had to back off because I could not afford to spend $50,000 to fight them. All they have to do is threaten and they win. Sure you could gather support in the community and they could pull the lawsuit card again. It had my wife quite shaken and wanting to move out because of this. As the Attorney put it "The Association", my neighbors will file suit to have you "cease and desist". Sorry that is abuse of power and misappropriation of Association funds.

I can and would dispute that they are not representing the best interest of the organization based on the governing documents.

The point is, at least the point I think you are trying to "box" me into a corner on, is that somehow I would be representing the the association, not the neighbors.

I still stand by that and find your hair splitting pointless.

THEY may think they are representing the best interests of the association, but if myself and others, using the governing documents as our guide, do not believe they are, I would still be insisting that they are not.

It would definitely be my interpretation of the documents vs. their interpretation, however, in going door to door I would still be positioning my run for the board based on the integrity of the governing documents, not on the platform of "representing the owners."

So, yes, you are not only "still" missing something, you are creating a strawman.

If the direction that the current board members is going is so far from what the average homeowner interprets the association documents to mean or say, then it will not be difficult at all to unseat them.

If my interpretation of what the board is doing is out of line with what other homeowners believe or understand the governing documents to say, then they won't vote for me.

In the end, it's still always about the integrity of the governing documents and whether the homeowners feel or believe that I will make better judgments based on those governing documents than a current board member may or may not be doing.

Robert

Sometimes taking the high road just isn't an option. Sometimes it pays just to stand down and admit you can't fight City Hall. Residents don't care, Boards are uneducated and then allow PM and Lawyers to run Association affairs. There will be no government agency regulating them besides HOA's are a godsend for local governments with the Association responsible for maintaining sewers, streets, lighting patrol enforcement to name just a few. You can't have elections, there is no transparency, board are allowed to violate state laws while enforcing their own rules and regulation. Michele posted saying she would campaign door to door representing the governing docs of the Association. What if most of the governing docs are useless, outdated and really were written to serve the developer in getting the required building permits from local government agencies.

I still believe that HOA's are a private government and no one can convince me otherwise. HOA's took over certain areas that city governments would normally have control over, sewers, lighting, streets and parking and speeding enforcement whether inside our gated community or the outside private streets we share with two other communities. We make rules that a city would create such as city park rules, speed limits, trash can placements and removals, parking. We have our own "City Council" which creates a budget, makes laws, sets elections, sets council meetings, adjourns to executive sessions and raises revenue by taxing (dues). None of our homeowners can opt out. They have to play the game or pay the piper. If this was a business, I could just patronize another business who catered to my tastes.

I would have a committee of homeowners, a mix of residents from the beginning and newer residents to go through all the governing docs and get rid of the garbage and create a set of documents that make sense for "Our Community", not yours or theirs. It can be done and I have seen it done. Associations can work, but it can't if it is run like a dictatorship, with no accountability or hope for change.

Robert. You said "They threaten a lawsuit against me for challenging how they conducted an election". How can they expect to bring a lawsuit agaiinst you for exercising your right as a homeowner? If elections are not being conducted in accordance with your governing documents, you have every right to challange them (seems to me). Since when can someone sue a person who questions why the HOA directives are not being followed? You also said: "As the Attorney put it "The Association", my neighbors will file suit to have you "cease and desist". Why would your neighbors get behind a lawsuit to cause you to cease doing exactly what you should be doing as an involved homeowner? One final question, exactly where in the Soviet Union is your community located?

"I can and would dispute that they are not representing the best interest of the organization based on the governing documents."

The definition of "promoting health" is too vague - you can dispute its interpretation all day long, until cows come home, it's still vague. The current board interprets it their way, you are entitled to interpret it your way. But - let's don't try to shoehorn HOA into a government - it's a business, therefore the opinions of the residents (and YOURS in particular) do not matter. The board does follow the governing documents, period.

"The point is, at least the point I think you are trying to "box" me into a corner on, is that somehow I would be representing the the association, not the neighbors.

I still stand by that and find your hair splitting pointless."

Michele, I did not try to "box" you into a corner. I sincerely respect your views, believe me. You helped me understand the nature of HOA better than anybody else on this forum.

Back to the discussion. You are right about me emphasizing the difference between the interests of the association and the homeowners. I find it shocking (!) you don't. I hope you didn't imply HOA is "by the people, for the people" - did you?

"THEY may think they are representing the best interests of the association, but if myself and others, using the governing documents as our guide, do not believe they are, I would still be insisting that they are not."

This goes back to the cows. The definition is too vague, it's a business, the opinion of the members does NOT matter.

"It would definitely be my interpretation of the documents vs. their interpretation, however, in going door to door I would still be positioning my run for the board based on the integrity of the governing documents, not on the platform of "representing the owners."

By going door to door you will share your point of view on the interpretation of the documents. However, you should not be elected because other residents support your interpretation, otherwise electing you would mean their view is REPRESENTED. Their view should not be represented, this is a business.

"If the direction that the current board members is going is so far from what the average homeowner interprets the association documents to mean or say, then it will not be difficult at all to unseat them."

An average homeowner, and his view on the direction of the board - Michele, you just shocked me again! A government cares about an average homeowner and his views, not a business. Look who is trying to shoehorn HOA into a government!

An average homeowner does not decide anything, his view is irrelevant - the board does not represent lot owners, you said it right. HOA board members should be elected solely (!) based on their qualifications to run HOA as a business, not to represent homeowners. So by walking door to door you should discuss with the homeowners your business qualifications - and nothing else.

Richard: For the record I absolutely agree with everything you say in your post. The problem though is that seldom is their a problem with a rule. There are routinely problems with the people who interpret the rule.

Hey teach, I have my hand up, can I answer this last part, lemme do it, let me do it.

The yellow brick road is the same road to hell that is paved with good intentions!

Richard. I recently pointed out two issues which were being considered by our board, which if carried out would have violated state law. The board finally accepted my views (and my references). I had already contacted state authorities who deal with HOA issues and was told I had their support. I had also spoken to a large representative sample of homeowners about these issues and had 95% agreement from those homeowners. The 5% who disagreed with me were part of the group that would benefit from the implementation of the issues - at the expense of the other 95%. I was therefore prepared to lead a class action suit against the HOA based simply on principle. I knew any funds spent would come back to me once I prevailed in court. I was not concerned about threats of action by the attorney because I think slander is the speaking of untruths. I was speaking the truth. If your board is doing things contrary to the law (including HOA law), I do not see how any action against you for pointing this out will be successful. Your moving out of the HOA is just going to put the problem on the back(s) of some other resident(s) because sooner or later there will be an end to improper activities by the board.

Glen,

What is going to change in November? The same thing will happen again. I will take the opinion of 25 other attorneys and PM's over whether the Board/PM/Attorney acted improperly. I had my experience with an HOA and quickly frankly it ain't worth the extra money i pay.

Richard,
I was hoping you would have seen the wisdom in Glens post about building up support and end up controlling the annual meeting. Seemed to have slipped by you. Just in case you have second thoughts, keep in mind, you are going to have to offer a better mousetrap. Your effort should be for your association, not for revenge or personal agenda. No, I am not accusing you of anything, you haven't done anything yet. I know that we all want what is the best for your association and appreciate your concerns. You know some good stuff Richard, time to put it to work