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NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Can someone clarify this definition of a "Unit" that is in our Declaration.

"Unit. A part of the Condominium being a cubicle of air and soil having vertical sides formed by the planes of the unit boundary lines extending upwward from the surface of the unit 35 feet and extending downward and parallel 20 feet from the surface of the unit. The unit owner of each unit shall have an exclusive and perpetual right to construct, use, maintain, remove and replace surface and subsurface improvements, including, but not limited to; buildings, foundations, basement walls, and foundation pilings in accordance with the terms and conditions of this Declaration. Unit ownership shall also entitle the Unit owner to an undivided percentage interest in the common elements as described in this Declaration.

Since we are single family CONDO's I'm not sure exactly what this means. Some residents believe we own the 50x60 building pad/envelope that we were restricted to when deciding on how large our home could be. They also believe that if they didn't use all of this building pad/envelope then whatever land is left unused they own. Others believe we only own the unit we built and everything outside our exterior walls is owned by all residents.

The Condominium Deeds we were given say, under the legal description, "Unit 3 in Pines Condominium created by a "Declaration of Condominium recoreded on (date) in the office of the Register of Deeds .........."

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
I'm not an attorney but to me it says you own 35' feet above the ground level meaning the top of your roof can't be 35'1' and you can dig straight down 20' for your basement or foundation and that you can tear the unit down and re-build it as often as you want or can afford to. I would take the 50' x 60' as the max size the building can be but as to "owning" the land to do anything with it, I wouldn't without a legal opinion, maybe two. I would take it that if your current home was 45' x 55' you could tear it down and build out to the 50' x 60'; I don't know if you can use the unused part for anything else like a shed, deck or landscaping unless these are covered by the CC&R's

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Glen, thanks so much for your reply. Your opinion seems to go along with what I was told when we built. They kept saying that we bought the "right to build" and part ownership of the whole development. I thought I had a clear understanding but by what other residents are saying I'm not so sure. Seems like every time we turn around we have to pay big bucks to an atty. to clear things up.

The plat map says that outside of the 50x60 envelope we are given a 10x12 square in which to build a patio but, as you were thinking, I was told if I didn't use all the 50x60 I could use that too for patio but I don't see that in any condo docs. In fact I don't see anything said about the 50x60 in the docs either, just on the plat map. Is that odd?

I think it is getting residents confused because the definition says "air and soil" and they take the "soil" to mean land. Thanks again for your thoughts.
JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Talking about the definition of a "unit", some Maryland developers have recently been defining the unit of an apartment style condominium as extending to the paint on the outside wall with the person living in the top unit owning the roof. Thus, guess who is responsible for repairs. There must be a glitch in Maryland law that allows this. I mention it so new condominium buyers can watch out for this language and run if they see it.
Jeanne

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Nancy,

"Unit" is usually the term used to define a property owner's residence in a condo assn. In a planned community (single family homes) the term used is usually "lot".

The assn owns all the common areas in a planned community; however each individual unit owner has an undivided interest in the common areas of a condo assn. In a planned community, each lot or property owner owns the whole lot his home sits on and he is resp. for maintaining everything on that lot; however, in a condo assn the unit owner is only resp for the interior maint. of his unit. The exterior of the unit and the grounds surrounding the unit are maintained by the HOA.

Frankly I've never heard of a "single family condo". Do your CCRs specifically state this? Uusually it's one or the other, but cannot be both.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Nancy, based on your posts I think the Declaration defines the vertical limits of your Unit - 35' max height and 20' max depth from the surface; and the Plat defines the horizontal limits of your unit. If the plat shows Unit 3 is 50'x60' then I believe that would define the horizontal limits of your unit. If the Plat includes an additional outline (which could be used for a deck) then that is horizontal limits of the Unit. If the deck area is not part of your unit you can check the Decs to determine if a deck can be added in a desingated "limited common area".
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Mary there is a new hybrid out there that combines a stand alone home with some of the features of a condo, shared water and landscaping for instance. They are usually built on smaller lots and marketed to the over 55 crowd, it usually will depend on how they are regulated in the different states as to what they are called or what section of the code they fall under.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Glen,

I know there are townhomes and patio homes that may be classified as condos or as planned communities. IMO, the determining factor is usually whether or not the common areas are owned by the HOA or if each unit/lot owner has an undivided interest in them. Another determining factor may be whether or not there are provisions in the CCRs speaking about "limited common elements" and "common element interests". These type provisions would NOT be contained in the CCRs of a planned community.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Mary,

Yes, we are definitely a condo association and hold condo deeds. We are totally responsible for the inside and outside of our homes. We share all the grounds and pay monthly assessments for all the snow plowing, lawn maintenance and insurance on the grounds.

We were never told we bought a lot. We were just restricted to a 50x60 building pad/envelope in which to build our home.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Roger,

Am I understanding you correctly that you're thinking that these documents seem to define the limits of how big our units can be rather than stating that we own the land this 50x60 building envelope is on?
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyD5 on 08/12/2009 9:15 AM
Mary,

Yes, we are definitely a condo association and hold condo deeds. We are totally responsible for the inside and outside of our homes. We share all the grounds and pay monthly assessments for all the snow plowing, lawn maintenance and insurance on the grounds.

We were never told we bought a lot. We were just restricted to a 50x60 building pad/envelope in which to build our home.

Interesting. I now have a different definition of a Condo. Previously, I presumed Condo's only owned the air space, not the physical structure.

So what is the difference between your Condo and a single family home other than a single family home usually owns land beyond the limit of the house? Could it be the definition of a Condo in your state?
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Roger,

Can't say as though I know the definition by the State. The only difference between our condos and a single family home is that we own 1/20th of the whole development along with our unit and that all outside maintenance is done by the Association.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyD5 on 08/12/2009 9:24 AM
Roger,

Am I understanding you correctly that you're thinking that these documents seem to define the limits of how big our units can be rather than stating that we own the land this 50x60 building envelope is on?

I think you probably own the vertical limit defined in the Decs as "a cubicle of air and soil having vertical sides ...." and that cube's horizontal demensions is defined by the Plat.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Roger,

The problem here is in that definition. Residents feel that since it says "soil" they own that building envelope and if they didn't use up all the 50x60 that they can do whatever they want in that left over area. If that were true then we would land, right? And then a 50x60 plot of land would show on our deeds instead of just the unit number, right?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Nancy,
In this post you said the association takes care of outsdide maintenance. I take it don't mean the outside maintaence of the unit.

You state each owner owns 1/20th of the common property. That would mean a separate deed for that common property I assume. How is the common property defined in your documents and the court records that show the original filings and registration of the association and planning and Master deed for the whole area plats.

I have a little knowledge of condominium property that is what I would term normal condominium documents. I am always surprised to run across how cross connected all these documents are. One clause can effect or inpinge on other considerations.

It does appear, and is probably possible someone (Builder, developer, zoning requirements financing, etc, etc.) all got together and said: We need to write a condominium association governing documents that must do, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc., because we have this list of reasons.1, 2, 3, 4, .etc.. However it happened and why, you can bet the bottom line had something to do with it. Are there other similar associations you know about? Anywhere?

Is it possible you all are unique? I would suggest you do a little historic research and dig up all you can as to how and why this arrangement was made. Not saying anything wrong with it, just don't know.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyD5 on 08/12/2009 9:56 AM
Roger,

The problem here is in that definition. Residents feel that since it says "soil" they own that building envelope and if they didn't use up all the 50x60 that they can do whatever they want in that left over area. If that were true then we would land, right? And then a 50x60 plot of land would show on our deeds instead of just the unit number, right?

That would depend on what else the Decs state. If your structure is 35'x45' do you or does the association mainain the other roughly 7.5' perimeter of land around the building? The land is not owned by you beneath the 20' depth; and I would guess that the restrictions on the vertical and horizontal were only meant to describe the limits which you can use for your unit's construction. Without reading the rest of the Decs it would be hard for anyone to judge what is meant; but I see your problem. If important I would ask the Board to get a legal opinion.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Nancy,

From what you've said it appears that your home is a condo. Except for the fact that the unit owners are resp. for maint of the exterior of their units, everything else you've stated applies to a condo. In many condo assns, patios are designated as a limited common area and would be the only area away from the walls of the unit itself that the unit owner could call his own, even though he really doesn't own it. In other words there is no lot area left over once the unit is built, unlike in a planned community where the property owner has a front, side and back yard that he also owns.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Roger,

The condo docs say nothing about owning land. In fact I can't find anywhere where it even talks about the 50x60 building pad/envelope. The only place I see this talked about is on the plat map which just shows boxes that measure 50x60 and their location. As far as maintenance, the Association does all the maintenance outside the building walls. No one has to cut grass or shovel snow, even on their front porches.

I am a Board member and we just got back from a 2hr session with the atty. and now this comes up. This residents are costing us a fortune and yet complain atty. fees. Anyway, we can't afford to go back at this point so I guess we will have to wait a bit but thanks for your insight.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Mary,

You are correct, our patios are designated as limited common elements but we ourselves maintain them. 15' around a unit is also called limited common elements but the Association does maintain that area. We are just getting the residents used to the fact that they don't own that 15' so they would flip out if they heard they don't even own the patio they installed. I believe since they now know they don't own that 15' they now want to own whatever is left of the 50x60 to do with whatever they want.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Nancy I understand the confusion with the inclusion of the word soil but the way I would interpret it is that the unit includes only what is contained in the framework of construction; the cube that is the condo no more, no less. IMO it does not give H/O the right to the "unused" portion of the building envelope unless expansion is covered under another section. For instance do your documents address if a smaller unit is allowed to add on a room as long as they stay within the maximum dimensions.

It would be my position that if the homeowner built to the maximum limit of 50 x 60 they can have a 10 x 12 patio but if the dwelling is only 35 X 45 they too are limited to a 10 X 12 patio. If the builder / developer intended for the H/O to be able to use the space it would be in the declarations. This is one of the problems of being on the cutting edge; it’s a learning experience that is often expensive.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Glen,

No, our docs say nothing about expansion they just address needing ACC approval before making any "improvements" which includes any material alteration.

Now the builder, when he was in the picture, said if we didn't use all of our 50x60 we could use the rest to add to the 10x12 patio. He never said we owned the remaining area just that we could use it for the patio. But, nowhere in the condo docs do we read that. Plat map just shows that patios are to be 10x12 and to be added to the left or right of the rear of the unit and in the docs it talks about the "limited common elements" where we can have a patio.

You hit the nail on the head, EXPENSIVE!!!! As I look back, should have just bought a small home and hired someone to do our outside maintenance. Thanks again Glen
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Well, as someone else on this message board says... "If it ain't there, it ain't there."

It's not in the documents, so I would NOT go by what the builder/developer said when he was still in the picture.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Tracie,

I'm seeing more and more proof of what you are saying as we are going along. Thanks
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Nancy, well an extension could be considered an improvement, so get ready because sooner or later it will happen. A larger deck could also be considered an improvement requiring ARC approval. As to the developer promising things; that is pretty much SOP (standard operating procedure), promise anything, make the sale and move on and let the new HOA BOD deal with it. But for the most part you'll notice the people who claim the developer told them this or that never have it in writing.

It never ceases to amaze me that in this day and age if you buy a $1000.00 used car you have to sign a piece of paper stating that there were no promises made by the salesman that are not included in the contract. Yet you buy a $100,000.00 + home and people are willing to take someone's word on something. It has happened to all of us though, buyers in the back of some of our buildings were "promised" scenic wood views for which they were charged a premium as the developer had no plans to build on that section. He didn't but he did sell the trees which were all cut down and then later he sold the land to another developer who built townhomes, what a scenic view. And no I wasn't one of those buyers, I have a lovely view of the side of their building for which I negotiated a discount from the original buyer.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Nancy,
IF you did make a mistake and should have bought a small home, what makes you think that would have been any better. Of course, you don't know. But you can be assured whatever you decided to purchase there would be something to fix. Associations are no different, there is always something to fix. It may end up a few people (as is the case normally) will work their butt off to fix things for folks that don't care enough to get involved, but, the problem still has to be fixed, single family or whatever.

So, accept you got a problem, work to-wards solving it, little by little you will get the job done. It's not easy. Nor is it overwhelming if you stay in focus. Your situation is odd to say the least, but it's your dog and you have to train it. Like dogs, fixing associations can be a never ending problem, but you can still love your dog.

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