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GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Hi, we have lived in our subdivision for a little over a year now and I not on the HOA board. Our HOA was just recently handed over to us as our build is now complete in our subdivision. My question is this, we are receiving no notifications regarding our board, meetings, etc.. The board was voted in without the knowledge of many of the neighbors and now they have decided to remain "anonymous". We found out about a meeting tonight by chance and decided to attend. When we walked in to the meeting we were asked what we were doing there as the meetings are for board members ONLY and that they did not want their identities known by the neighborhood! The board members were actually upset that we were at the meeting! It was my understanding that by Colorado law the board has to disclose certain information to the neighborhood, one of which is the dates and times of meetings so that we can attend! Is this not true and can the board remain anonymous? They have gone so far as to say that they want a "private" mailbox for HOA correspondence so that we do not know where any board members live!

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
gretchen
EverettC (Maryland)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Gretchen,

Under the Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act, you are entitled to attend board meetings. See section 38-33.3-308(2.5)(a):

"(2.5) (a) Notwithstanding any provision in the declaration, bylaws, or other documents to the contrary, all meetings of the association and board of directors are open to every unit owner of the association, or to any person designated by a unit owner in writing as the unit owner's representative."

The complete act is at http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/5feb1/61aaa/61aac/6208e?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0#JD_t38art333.

How were the board members elected if not at an open meeting in compliance with the law?

The law does allow certain matters to be discuss in executive session (see section 4) butt hose should be the exception, not the rule.

Hard to see how a board can remain anonymous and have open meetings and open elections.

GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
We asked how the board was voted in and we were told that by combining the meetings (which we did not know happened) and some proxy votes (which we also did not know about) the board was elected and voted in. It is my understanding that they have to have proof of this, correct? They have to be able to prove that they had 2/3 majority? I don't think they do as the entire street that I live on did not vote or attend a meeting as none of us knew they were happening.

The board is being VERY secretive. They refused to allow us any budget information, they just said simply "we are out of money for the year". When asked where the money went they informed us that they do not have to disclose that information until the annual meeting. They also said that the annual meeting is the only one that anyone other than board members needs to attend. They acted very defensive that we were there tonight. I am not sure where to go from here, but feel that more information needs to be shared by the board. Besides the fact that it seems impossible to get things "approved by the board" when we do not know who the board is! By law do they have to disclose their names?
EverettC (Maryland)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GretchenB1 on 07/28/2009 9:33 PM
We asked how the board was voted in and we were told that by combining the meetings (which we did not know happened) and some proxy votes (which we also did not know about) the board was elected and voted in. It is my understanding that they have to have proof of this, correct? They have to be able to prove that they had 2/3 majority? I don't think they do as the entire street that I live on did not vote or attend a meeting as none of us knew they were happening.

The board is being VERY secretive. They refused to allow us any budget information, they just said simply "we are out of money for the year". When asked where the money went they informed us that they do not have to disclose that information until the annual meeting. They also said that the annual meeting is the only one that anyone other than board members needs to attend. They acted very defensive that we were there tonight. I am not sure where to go from here, but feel that more information needs to be shared by the board. Besides the fact that it seems impossible to get things "approved by the board" when we do not know who the board is! By law do they have to disclose their names?

Yes, they have to make records available on reasonable request and within no more than 30 days of written request (see subsection 4), and those records have to include the names and business or home addresses of each director and officer. See section 317 of the Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act, which reads in part:

"(2) (a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection (2), all financial and other records shall be made reasonably available for examination and copying by any unit owner and such owner's authorized agents.

(b) (I) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this subsection (2), a membership list or any part thereof may not be obtained or used by any person for any purpose unrelated to a unit owner's interest as a unit owner without consent of the executive board....", and

"(5) In addition to the records specified in subsection (1) of this section, the association shall keep a copy of each of the following records at its principal office:

(a) Its articles of incorporation, if it is a corporation, or the corresponding organizational documents if it is another form of entity;

(b) The declaration;

(c) The covenants;

(d) Its bylaws;

(e) Resolutions adopted by its executive board relating to the characteristics, qualifications, rights, limitations, and obligations of unit owners or any class or category of unit owners;

(f) The minutes of all unit owners' meetings, and records of all action taken by unit owners without a meeting, for the past three years;

(g) All written communications within the past three years to unit owners generally as unit owners;

(h) A list of the names and business or home addresses of its current directors and officers;

(i) Its most recent annual report, if any; and

(j) All financial audits or reviews conducted pursuant to section 38-33.3-303 (4) (b) during the immediately preceding three years."

Thus,, while public disclosure of the names of the directors is not directly required, the names of the directors must be provided in response to a request under the law, so long as the request is made in good faith and for a proper purpose. There may be other laws that require filing of directors names, and perhaps someone from Colorado can point to these, if applicable. (In Virginia, for example, filing of a report with the Virginia Common Interest Community Board is required, which names each of the directors, but I don't know if Colorado has a similar requirement).

It sounds like their election can be challenged, if no one on your street received notice of the annual meeting at which the directors were elected. A review of the minutes should show whether notice was sent to the members.

I suggest that the first step is to request a copy of all records covered by subsections (f), (g), (h), and (j).

GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Thanks so much for all your help, it is greatly appreciated. I will definitely be reading up on all of this information so that I can attend the next meeting with my facts in order.

Thanks again!
Gretchen
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Gretchen,

In Florida associations must file an annual report with the state showing board officers, etc. You may be able to check this out on line. If not, call and order a copy of this. It looks like it would be money well spent to have an attorney send a letter. The board is spending your money and you have every right to know about the financials. I would go with other owners to every board meeting you learn about.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
And of course request copies of the minutes from all meetings, which should include all attachments (like the treasurer's report).

Good luck. Sounds like your board needs an education on board roles and responsibllity.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Whoa, whoa, whoa...

First, Gretchen, as a fellow Coloradoan...let me weigh in.

1. Is your association registered with the state as a non-profit corporation? If so, then they need to follow Colorado Non-Profit laws... This would include posting of BOD meetings, allowing owners/members to come to BOD meetings (but perhaps as viewers only).

2. Is your association even covered by CCIOA (Colorado Common Interest...)? Mine is NOT. Our association can opt to be covered by CCIOA, but I doubt we'll do that.

3. What do your DOCUMENTS say? When you bought your home, you should have been given the Bylaws and the CC&Rs (Possibly the Articles of Incorporation, if your association is incorporated, non-profit or otherwise). The docs should detail EXACTLY how to notice owners/members of a meeting. The docs should detail EXACTLY how to elect Board members, and then how the officers are elected/appointed.

Do a tiny bit of research, get back to us with answers, and we'll see.

My OPINION is that your BOD is WAY OUT OF LINE, but without much more detail, that's all it is...my opinion.

Finally, what does the Secretary of State's Business Services website say about your organization? Who's your REGISTERED AGENT? This is all online, and it's completely open for the public.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Gretchen,

Either all the board members are terribly arrogant or grossly misinformed of their responsibilities and duties, not to mention CO state law regarding HOAs. Before you confront them, make certain you have thoroughly read all the gov docs and the CO HOA state statutes so you can intelligently inform them of everything they are doing inviolation of these laws. Give them the benefit of the doubt for now. At the next meeting inform them of the CO HOA statutes and give them a letter requesting copies of the assn's records, be specific of what records you want. I would let them know that you are hoping they are acting in this manner because they do not realize they are breaking the law; however, if it continues then a recall petition will be circulated for their removal. Let them know exactly what articles of the gov docs they have violated and what state laws they've broken and also what the members expect of them: open meetings, financial disclosure, full disclosure of all their actions, respect, etc. Don't attend the meeting alone, bring along ALL the members who have the same feelings as you do. There's power in numbers!! Be polite, but firm.

BTW, check with the Sec. of State to find out if an annual report is required to be filed. If so, obtain a copy as it should list the names & addresses of all the officers together with the name of the HOAs statutory agent. Check to see if these reports are online as this would be a quick way to obtain the info you want.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ? They have gone so far as to say that they want a "private" mailbox for HOA correspondence so that we do not know where any board members live!

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
gretchen

With respect to the "private" mail box for HOA correspondence, a public HOA post office mail box may not be a bad idea. Private? Oh no!!! I say this because we found that constantly changing the mail address with the change of board officers became an effort and led to problems. Once we established an HOA post office box and PUBLISHED it for everyone to know (residents, vendors, contractors, insurance agent, etc), much confusion was cleared up.

I sure hope you and your neighbors can straighten out this mess. I cannot imagine anything more ridiculous than an anonymous board.
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
OOPS. I forgot to end the BF. Only the "public" was to be bold face. I'll get it right the next time.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
A PO box is a great idea, BUT...the Registered Agent (for Colorado anyway) CANNOT be a PO box.

Just adding my pennies.
GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Okay, we are covered by the CCIOA, it is written in our bylaws. :0) I just found out that there is a website (none of my neighbors know about it for some reason) that has our budget. It is from 2008, but it's a start. We are $25K in the hole! But on the website under Board Members there are no names, even though in the bylaws it says the names and addresses will be available. So that needs to be addressed for sure. We were NOT given copies of our bylaws or any other info when we moved in. We were only given the name of our management company. This angers me considering we bought directly from the builder and are the first owners of this home!

As far as the election and board members. There are minutes from an Annual meeting in March on this website. It says that 20% of our home owners were not available for the meeting so they are counting proxy votes. Myself and many of my neighbors never received the proxy vote information, nor were we informed of the meeting! So this also needs to be addressed. According to the CCIOA they have to have 2/3 majority to vote in a board, is that correct?

The minutes from meetings held in April, May, June & July are NOT on the website! According to our board in the meeting last night they are not planning on releasing those minutes! So obviously our board is uneducated. They didn't even read our bylaws let alone the CCCIOA because BOTH say that minutes from meetings must be readily available to home owners.

So my new question is this. Do you think if we get together with our neighbors that we can remove this board and start over?

Thanks again for everyones input, this is our first home and means a lot to us and we really feel like we are being left out of the loop by our board.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Can you recall your BOD...absolutely. Read your Bylaws/Articles, there should be a provision in there about how to recall BOD. There will be a petition process (probably) to get the BOD to call a special meeting. If owners/members present a petition to call a special meeting, the BOD HAS to do it.

Use the search feature to look through posts with the keyword "recall". There's LOTS of conversation about it...

Are you planning on running for a seat on your BOD?

EdwinW
Posts: 5
Posted:
our board will not provide minutes and budget. what can be done to view these documents?
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
"available" does not mean "published" on a web site. You can get copies by request.

You need to find out HOW members were notified about the Annual Meeting. It seems odd that you and your neighbors are all saying that you were never informed about the meeting.

TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:

Edwin,
Do your docs have any language about records management/records request? Usually, the BOD has a period of time to respond to requests for the documents for the assocation. There should be penalties if the BOD doesn't respond in a timely manner to a legitimate request.
GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Thanks for the info! I would be interested in a seat on the BOD. I am definitely looking into it.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Edwin,
Read this post and keep coming back. This will be covered in detail, but you must make the effort to read your documents and understand what they say.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 07/29/2009 11:10 AM


Indeed. What do your documents say about meeting notice? Mine says that meeting notices MUST be sent via First-Class Mail Postage Pre-Paid to the last address on association record for each owner (my docs date back when Cash on Delivery was actually a postal option!). Some associations are trying to cut costs and are noticing in other ways that ARE allowed by the documents, e.g. association website.
GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I just spoke with the secretary of state and apparently our HOA has never registered with them! Can they do that? According to the lady on the phone it is not legal!
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Ahhh...the plot thickens...

Gretchen, go to your county's Assessor's Office (website might have some info) to look up the information on your specific address. Are there any documents/land plats/builder/developer information? In order to build, there HAD to be building permits, and if you're in an association, the association HAD to be setup prior to selling the first lot. I'm in El Paso County (Colorado Springs), and our Assessor has a good website.

Just FYI...our association was administratively dissolved sometime in the 90s due to our BOD not filing the Annual Report. There WERE legal fees involved to try to determine what state statute we were under when we were dissolved, but we've gotten back into the good graces of the state. But, for almost 20 years our association just did its thing, paid taxes, etc, but we weren't legal with the state. We didn't find out UNTIL we went to the bank to change signatures on one of our accounts.

Finally, you'll hear a LOT of info from people in other states. Let me tell you...in general, Colorado is a VERY CASUAL state for homeowners association stuff. Some states (notably, Florida, California, Michigan) are HIGHLY restrictive and the "authorities" are pretty active in enforcing HOA law. Not so much here.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Gretchen,
As you can see your post has drawn some pretty strong words of indignation and you can add me to the list.

But, I may be wrong but I did not see any advice on one thing you should avoid at all costs and you have the opportunity. Do not go to the Board meeting alone, even if it means waiting. Build your support system NOW, show strength when you go and demand to be heard. Don't get out front where you can be labeled a trouble-maker.
Be one of a group (as large as possible) that are labeled troublemakers.

Fact is you have an absolute right to be heard, to receive a respectful reply, to record your conversation at the meeting, to run for any office unless your documents say otherwise and I doubt that.
I know recall was mentioned and it is an option, but you show enough power and these guys will fold. It will be a fight maybe, but always take the high road, utilize Town-hall open meeting, set up a web site and/or Newsletter. Don't get cocky, stay smart, do not poison the crops, always remember your only concern is the association and everything else is next in line.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Gretchen, listen to RobertR1...he is wise...
GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I agree, and that is our plan. We are going to have a "get together" at our house and talk to some of our other neighbors to see what info they have been given. It seems everyone is very misinformed across the board! We attended the meeting last night with a group of neighbors and were NOT welcomed warmly! In fact we were told we do not "belong" at board meetings, only the annual meeting! But I wholeheartedly agree, I do not want to be labled a troublemaker. :0)
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Tracie, it took you long enough to recognise how wise I am.

Actually OLD would fit better, but I am flattered.

Are you married? Damn I forgot, I am married!!!!!!!
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 07/29/2009 11:44 AM
Tracie, it took you long enough to recognise how wise I am.

Actually OLD would fit better, but I am flattered.

Are you married? Damn I forgot, I am married!!!!!!!

Oh, RobertR1...it didn't take long at all! I've actually printed some of your posts out, so I could "borrow" specific language for things I'm working on!

I do appreciate your wise, tempered, rational responses, though!
MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TracieS on 07/29/2009 8:33 AM
A PO box is a great idea, BUT...the Registered Agent (for Colorado anyway) CANNOT be a PO box.

Just adding my pennies.

Not to take this discussion off track but as a matter of information, our HOA President and Secretary, along with their home addresses, are registered agents with the Indiana Secretry of State. Still our PO Box is in the name of XXXXX XXXXXX Homeowner's Association, Inc.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Gretchen,

If you need to get a copy of your by-laws, covenants, etc they can be obtained at the courthouse where they were recorded. These docs should give you all the info you need in regards to recalling the board.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Ellen is right of course about your documents.
And while you are in court house get one of the clerks to show you all the features of their website. Make sure you know about property records that you can look at by pluging in names and addresses, and be sure to investigate the courthouse section on criminal and civil case on file. All public domain and some can be interesting and helpful for what you are thinking about doing.. Information is power.
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Gretchen,
Knowledge is the key. Get your docs,state statutes,read answers on this site and RobertsRules.com
Good luck!
Barbara
SkuddleM (Colorado)
Posts: 62
Posted:
Guess I'm just thick, but...

If the members of the BOD are anonymous, how is Gretchen supposed to correspond with them? Where would a lawyer send a letter destined to the BOD? How would the BOD be named in a suit?

Second, what is the BOD supposed to do?

Third, do the association members pay dues? To whom? Maybe they should reconsider paying them...

I think this whole thing about anonymity stinks to high heaven.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SkuddleM on 08/05/2009 9:14 AM
Guess I'm just thick, but...

If the members of the BOD are anonymous, how is Gretchen supposed to correspond with them? Where would a lawyer send a letter destined to the BOD? How would the BOD be named in a suit?

Second, what is the BOD supposed to do?

Third, do the association members pay dues? To whom? Maybe they should reconsider paying them...

I think this whole thing about anonymity stinks to high heaven.

While I agree with you re: stinking, it's foolish to recommend one not pay dues, regardless of how one feels about the anonymity of the board members. Teenagers are keen on cutting of their noses to spite their faces, but homeowners should be more circumspect. I'd hate to lose my home to an anonymous board because I threw a hissy fit and didn't send in my dues.

But since all corps should have a registered agent, and one can most likely find out all that info on his or her Secretary of State's website, including other forms like annual reports, etc, then it's not all that hard to locate someone somewhere to whom one can send a harsh letter.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Skuddle,
Your questions are valid.
If you are suggesting an escrow account or something like that, the gain would seem undefinable at this time.

I have no idea how this sort of structure can be legally instituted. Maybe a lawyer found a hole in the documents or something. But more to the point is why did the Board assume this posture. Is it possible there is a story behind the story? Not only possible but probably around this site. What went on before they came to this state? Maybe it is all irrelevant, who knows, but one thing for sure it is going to lead to more trouble that a member posting on this site. It appears not a question of can they do it, they did it. Why? Can they justify doing it because the member are always bugging them. Not according with my documents.

It seems apparent the members are going to have to step up and assert their power. I hope they do.
GretchenB1 (Colorado)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I have contacted the Sec. of State and our HOA is NOT registered with them. I have paid my fees for this year, so no worries there. I don't want to cause problems at all, I just think it is ridiculous for our BOD to think they can remain anonymous! The next meeting is the 18th of Aug. and we are planning to attend, even though the board has made it VERY clear that we do not belong at monthly meetings. I am also meeting with neighbors to discuss all of this. We are definitely not going to sit back and let them do whatever they please. :0)
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GretchenB1 on 08/05/2009 12:42 PM
I have contacted the Sec. of State and our HOA is NOT registered with them. I have paid my fees for this year, so no worries there. I don't want to cause problems at all, I just think it is ridiculous for our BOD to think they can remain anonymous! The next meeting is the 18th of Aug. and we are planning to attend, even though the board has made it VERY clear that we do not belong at monthly meetings. I am also meeting with neighbors to discuss all of this. We are definitely not going to sit back and let them do whatever they please. :0)

Your HOA may not actually exist then.

Have you researched the governing documents at your county deed room?

Stay motivated. Stay in their faces.

Best of luck to you.

MarianneG (Indiana)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleD on 08/05/2009 12:47 PM
Stay motivated. Stay in their faces.

Best of luck to you.


Ditto from me!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Gretchen,
Michelle makes good sense here. You do have a couple weeks to really do some research and build up a data bank. I would search all county sites for property information, all state site for business licences, all county court records for any involvement of your association in any court proceeding, Google your association name, google any names you have reason to believe are involved, collect, and file any letters, notices, anything that you can find that has the associations name on it.

Old brochures, any copies of deeds or transfer papers that reference the purchace of your property. Anything you can find out about the developer, any bank statements. any newspaper articles, search your local paper. Go to county court house and visit local civil serservice offices, like planning, building permits, etc, etc.

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