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HOA Dues & Fines

Started by PennyG1 • 18 replies • 2670 views

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PennyG1 (Georgia)
Posts: 7
Posted:

I’m looking for feedback, before I present to Board and HO for CCR modification.

HOA Dues & Fines

If HO has paid HOA dues, but has unpaid fines they are not allowed to attend HOA sponsored events or access to pool.

My thoughts: HOA Dues & Fines are not the same and should be handled differently.
If HO has paid HOA Dues they should be able to participate in events paid with HOA dues and have pool access; regardless of unpaid fines. The lien process should remain in affect for unpaid HOA dues and/or fines and HO should not be able to attend HOA sponsored events.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Penny,
I am glad there are some on this site smarter than I am maybe can firgure out what you are trying to say.

Is the below part of your documents;
******************************************
HOA Dues & Fines

If HO has paid HOA dues, but has unpaid fines they are not allowed to attend HOA sponsored events or access to pool.
*****************************

What else does it say, surely that can't be all. Do you want to change intend of this sentence? Here it is some kind of message to those that have unpaid fines that they can't attend HOA events or access pool. Since it does not mention what the penalaty is for not paying HOA dues, why did the mention unpaid dues?

Beats me?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
while you might be able to get away with this change, courts have most frequently ruled that DUES are a contractual obligation of the owner, and almost always sides with the HOA's in the collection (legally) of those dues. Fees associated with dues/assessments also fall into this.

However, courts have taken a less HOA friendly view of fines for covenant violations. They side with the owners as often as the HOA's (generalization, i have no supporting statistics) in disputes about fines and such.

SO, the ice is nice and thick where you are talking unpaid dues. it gets thinner when you move into punitive efforts regarding fines. So, you can do what you want, but the ice is thinner out there on the edge.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
No, that would not be proper.

At least according to our governing documents, a member must be in GOOD STANDING to have access to meetings, to vote, or to participate in amenities.

Good Standing is defined, current on dues and no outstanding fines or violations.

If the homeowner is current on dues but has outstanding fines or violations, then the member is not in good standing and cannot participate.

And, yes, I consider that very fair. If you have fines for either late payments and/or violations then why do you consider that you are a member in good standing, eligible for the things that those members who do play by the rules are eligible?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Penny,

The answer to you question lies within your CCRs and/or bylaws. I believe most assn docs state a member's voting rights and use of the common areas and any amenities shall be suspended if in violation of the CCRs or delinquent in payment of the assessments. Fines are generally levied for violation of the CCRs therefore anyone who has unpaid fines should be denied their right to vote and use of the common areas and amenities. Unless your docs extend these "punishments" to the attendance of HOA sponsored events, I would say a h/o with delinquent assessments and/or unpaid fines can NOT be excluded from attending.
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
I agree with Mary and as further support (or not) you may want to look in your governing documents for a definition of "assessments". It's not uncommon that this term includes fines that the HOA may levy against the owner. If so, then you cannot make a distinction without amending the docs.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
this is an excellent example of how we all come from different backgrounds and experiences. Some of us have regulations that specify that members in good standing are X, and granted the privileges of Y, and others don't. I, for instance, come from an HOA that specified that members with unpaid assessments were denied privileges, while others here have rules that state members with unpaid assessments OR fines can be denied. some HOAs don't even have that wording, probably. My hoa rules didn't even have wording to allow fines to be issued (except for late fees on unpaid assessments).

We all come at the problem from differing views, and it behooves a reader to carefully read and understand each view, and try to match the closest they can to their situation, as well as learn from the others (ie, just because you are from a different view, doesn't mean i can't learn from your lessons). We know our backgrounds, and try to apply it to the OP's, but only the OP knows the breadth and depth of the issue, and all the intricacies.

I know i learned a lot, and still do, about the many different varieties of HOA's, and how they are operated. And i appreciate seeing the many different ways that people have of doing things to get results.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Penny writes:

>>>If HO has paid HOA dues, but has unpaid fines they are not allowed to attend HOA sponsored events or access to pool.

My thoughts: HOA Dues & Fines are not the same and should be handled differently.<<<

Setting aside your thoughts for a moment, are you familiar with the typical difficulty of amending CCRs? Personally, I'd venture separating dues and fines delinquencies consequences is a pretty small project (and end result) for the amount of trouble and time needed to accomplish.

Oh, and what prompts your interest in this possible undertaking?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Brian,
Your reply is an excellent example of what I think makes this site worth while.
The regulars have to realize this and I think they do, and have been able to accept reality and comb through the posts looking for relevance.

And it seems as long as the regulars that are posting don't get all "specific" and issue some kind of "Laws", the number of different post coming from different angles tend to balance the process.

Just as we can't be specific in what we post because we get one version of a problem, those looking for advice can't expect us to give anything but opinions.

I would also note that nearly all or all those posting regularily have posted for advice one time or another. Of course we know what feedback we get can't be slapped on a problem, what we get back are thoughts to be considered.
JudyM5 (Ohio)
Posts: 36
Posted:
Penney - You need to check your state's laws governing HOA's and/or COA's before you can make the kind of decision you are proposing. In Ohio, the law states that there is a hierarchy that an association must follow when it receives money from an owner. First, the money must be applied to any late fees owed. Second and third, to any enforcement fees (fines)and legal fees owed. And whatever is left is applied to the association assessments (regular fees). I may have left out special assessments. Not sure without referring to ORC 5311. But, the bottom line is that what you're referring to as unpaid late fees may not really be unpaid late fees under your state's condominium laws. In Ohio, the unpaid amount due that you are referring to would be unpaid association assessments, not unpaid late fees. Check the law in your state.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Judy in OH under 5311 you can suspend voting privileges and access to amenities only for unpaid assessments and only for COA's as there currently is no law covering HOA's in OH. Unless the CC&R's specify differently.

5311.081 Powers and duties of board of directors.
(18) Suspend the voting privileges and use of recreational facilities of a unit owner who is delinquent in the payment of assessments for more than thirty days;
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Let's face it some homeowners seem to go out of the way to be a pain in the tuchas but before you slap them with a fine to punish them for annoying the BOD there are steps that need to be taken. These are required by statute in at least Florida, Ohio (COA) & California and possibly others. More importantly the BOD needs to treat those H/O's like they would want to be treated if the situations were reversed, as hard as it sometimes is. (After all we're all human or at least most of us are)

There has been talk of fining these miscreants and I have no problem with that but there needs to be a clearly defined rules and fine schedule which need to be in the hands of all of the H/O's before any fines are levied along with a manor to appeal it. You just can't make it up as you go unless you want to find yourself in court or on the news trying to explain that you are not selectively enforcing a covenant or rule. And you need to keep meticulous records to prove you aren't picking on someone or if you are that they're the only one to your knowledge that is in violation.

The point is not to raise money for the HOA but to get the H/O's to comply with what needs to be done in the easiest manor possible. I would suggest every HOA appoint a rules committee with as many H/O's on it as possible and follow the CC&R's and statues for making rules and have them vetted by an attorney. For instance our by-laws allow the BOD to propose rules but they aren't valid without 51% of the H/O's approving them. You also need to ask the attorney if you can lien for unpaid fines (some states don't allow it) or if you need to take the H/O through small claims court.

Examples:
Pool rule violation - Anyone who violates a posted pool rule is subject to the following: 1st offence - written warning. 2nd offense - $50.00 fine 3rd offense - suspension of all pool privileges for the balance of the season. If the violation is deemed serious enough to be a safety hazard the BOD may forgo the written warning and begin fining or suspend privledges.

Architectural violation - Anyone who builds or causes to be built or makes or causes to be made any modifications which requires prior ACC approval without ACC approval is subject to the following - Any structure or modification which complies with ACC guidelines and would have been approved $500.00 fine. Any structure or modification which does not comply with ACC guidelines and would have not been approved $500.00 fine and the homeowner must remove the structure or modification within 30 days or be subject to an additional monthly fine of $500.00 until the violation is cured plus attorney fees if the violation is not cured in 90 days and the Association must take legal action.

Pets - Anyone who walks their pet on common elements in violation of the approved pet rules is subject to the following:

Walking a pet off leash -1st offence - written warning. 2nd offense - $50.00 fine 3rd offense - the BOD will declare the animal a nuisance under Article ____ of the Convents and require that the animal be removed from Happy Acres HOA.

Failure to clean up animal feces -1st offence - written warning. 2nd offense - $50.00 fine 3rd offense - the BOD will declare the animal a nuisance under Article ____ of the Convents and require that the animal be removed from Happy Acres HOA.

Etc. etc. etc.

(I'm posting this also in http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/75262/view/topic/Default.aspx :
failure to obey rules is considered trespassing; as it seems apropos to both threads)
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Oops, I meant follow the statutes not follow the statues as they don't really move that much.



Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JudyM5 (Ohio)
Posts: 36
Posted:
Glen - If you will look closely at ORC 5311, you'll find the section that directs COA's in how the money is supposed to be applied to any amounts due from an owner. My only goal with my post was to point out that the unpaid balance due may not be simply late fees. In fact, in Ohio, the remaining balance due would no longer be "late fees", it would be unpaid association assessments. I never addressed suspending owners' use of amenities . . . just to correctly classify the outstanding balance due. I'm very aware that ORC 5311 is only for COA's. The wording in my post was supposed to be generic enough that the poster of the original question would be encouraged to refer to their state laws governing both COA's and HOA's. Since the original poster was not in Ohio, I didn't think that I needed to be THAT specific. It was simply an illustrative example. If the question had been "Ohio specific", I would have been more specific.
JudyM5 (Ohio)
Posts: 36
Posted:
Glen - The section of ORC 5311 that spells out how incoming money from an owner is to be applied to that owner's account can be found in ORC 5311.18(A)(2). Money is to be applied: First to any interest owed to association. Second to any late fees incurred. Third, to any legal fees incurred. And fourth, to the common expenses and/or penalty assessments (fines) against the unit. This is the kind of information that the original poster needs to check to see if her state statutes set out how incoming money is applied so she'll know if the remaining unpaid balance is legally considered late fees or assessments for common expenses in her state.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Judy, I was simply pointing out that in OH you can only suspend privileges for unpaid assessments not unpaid fees. And as far as 5311.18 it's one of those lovely rules the politicians put in place that may or may not apply depending on your existing CC&R's:

(2) Unless otherwise provided by the declaration, the bylaws, or the rules of the unit owners association, the association shall credit payments made by a unit owner for the expenses described in divisions (A)(1)(a) and (b) of this section in the following order of priority:

(a) First, to interest owed to the association;

(b) Second, to administrative late fees owed to the association;

(c) Third, to collection costs, attorney’s fees, and paralegal fees incurred by the association;

(d) Fourth, to the principal amounts the unit owner owes to the association for the common expenses or penalty assessments chargeable against the unit.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Glen,

Where did you get this little laughing guy?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
I copied it from someone's post a while back.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
John,

It amazes me how many posters post with a question when they haven't taken the time to read their documents. Sees a bit lazy to me. If they were knowledgeable about their docs that would answer their questions. We have so many posters here from so many states and each may be different so do the work and find out what your docs and YOUR state laws say.

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