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NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
We took control of our Association from the develop just about 2 yrs ago. After reading all the condo docs we came to understand that submissions forms must be sent in before anyone does anything outside the walls of their single family unit. We let all the residents know this on 3 different occasions since we all were unaware of this while the developer was in control. We introduced the ACC to everyone and gave submissions forms to everyone as well. We now have 2 reisdents who are doing things without sending in submission forms. We were able to approach one person this morning before the workers they hired to make flower beds and plant a tree began the work but we were told by her that they will not submit anything and we need to leave. What now?
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Nancy,

We have a similar requirement (for our SFDs) which is often ignored or overlooked by Membership. We have never enforced it, though would if 1) a neighbor complained, and/or; 2) the Member was building something really obnoxious, and/or; 3) it violates a specific rule in our docs (such as no fences in front yards, etc.). This laisser faire attitude of the BOD is based on the feeling that it's the owner's lot and most likely the addition will improve the value and enjoyment of their property, which is a good thing. Some Rules Nazis here will no doubt disagree, but that "take" works for us.

Flower beds? C'mon.
CarolF (Florida)
Posts: 435
Posted:
Are you a condominium association or a homeowners association? In other words, does the homeowner own the lot, or is the ground around the unit "common property"?
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
We are condo. We own only our single family home, no land. All the land is owned by all residents.
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyD5 on 07/17/2009 9:05 AM
We are condo. We own only our single family home, no land. All the land is owned by all residents.

In that case, our MO is irrelevant as our Members own their lots.
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
Nancy:

These 2 Owners should be called to a hearing before the Executive board. Follow your governing documents and Wisc. Law in the hearing. If fines are allowed let these Owners know that they can be fined for not following the guidelines.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
The one resident we weren't able to get to before she planted but this one today we did and like I stated she flat out says she will not send in a form. She feels she can do whatever she wants. She has been nothing but trouble time and time again and doesn't intend on following the rules. I doubt she would attend any meeting. The condo docs say that "the Association may impose and/or levy such other fees, charges and assessments as the Association may from time to time elect against the unit owners for the purpose of obtaining compliance with the duties and obligations imposed upon the unit owners by the Act, this Declaration, the Bylaws or the Rules and Regulations of the Association".

I truly don't know how we can get these residents to submit the forms before they do the work. It so frustrating and if we don't get a handle on it someone is going to do something way out of line and say that others had stuff done without submitting forms so they can too
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
NancyD -

Since we don't know the specifics of ALL portions of your governing docs, this reply comes with the caveat that it may not be entirely appropriate given other aspects of your CCRs and/or By-laws .. .. ..

Let's assume (always dangerous) that your docs require the HOA's approval for these exterior changes (ARC, ACC, etc) and that the docs further stipulate that approval must be obtained prior to the work beginning.

This owner has obviously violated the CCRs.

I would suggest the following:

1). The BOD or PM company should notify (as detailed in your CCRs) the owner that they are in violation of the CCRs.
2). The notification should require that either (a) the changes be reversed, or (b) that an application be submitted requesting approval by xx/xx/xxxx date.
3). The notification should also describe the HOA's next actions (e.g. fines) as permissible by the governing docs, in the event that such a response is not taken.

Actions after that will depend on the owner's response to the notification .. .. if they do nothing, fines should be imposed (I suggest daily fines until the situation is remedied - unless not allowed in your state).

The HOA cannot set a precedent of ignoring blatant refusals to abide by CCRs.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
John,

Thanks so much for the guidance. We just had a visit with the condo atty. who made it clear that while residents have a very small area of "limited common elements" for their use, they are not allowed to do anything in that area or in the "common area" without prior approval. She doesn't believe that and basically she is going to drive our condo association into the ground financial. We have had to go and get atty. advice every time we make any decisions concerning this association because she threatens legal action against us. I have no idea why she would buy into a condo if she doesn't want to obey rules.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Nancy,

Sadly, there is a multitude of people like that living in HOAs and driving their BOD's crazy. As suggested by other, about the only thing the BOD can do is impose a fine for violating the CCRs. My BOD has instigated a $1,000 fine for not obtaining prior approval; however, they will negotiate that amount. These two members need to be made to understand that the procedure will be followed or they will be fined and if the fines are not paid their property will be liened. And, on top of that should they do something that the board would not approve an additional fine could be imposed for constructing something that is disallowed.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
A fine sounds like a good idea to put an end to this complete defiance and as I stated earlier our docs say we can impose other fees, charges and assessments to obtain compliance but can we do that now or did we need to have some sort of fine schedule set upand sent out previously for those who refuse to send in submission forms?
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Since this person is using/altering property NOT her's, she is technically trespassing. See if you can get law enforcement involved.

In the meantime, be sure that all residents understand exactly WHERE their property lines are and what is common area.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Nancy,

I think the proper procedure would be for the BOD to adopt a rule stating a fine of $XXX will automatically be levied on any h/o who undertakes a project w/o first obtaining approval from the arch. comm. or BOD. Send this new rule to all the members then begin using it on these 2 h/o's who want to buck the system.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
I concur with MaryA1. My association doesn't really have any rules/regulations/procedures written down. We just developed a debt collection policy, and it's in agreement with our other documents (bylaws and CCR).

I agree, though, that I think you need to develop a policy, including levy-able (is that a word?) fines, get the BOD approval, notify the owners, then start fining. As long as you can fine from your founding docs, the policy/procedure just outlines exactly how it will go.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Just to be clear, are you suggesting that we overlook these 2 recent violations of not sending in the proper forms they were told to submit and then later if they do it again after this new rule goes out to the membership then we fine them? Also, at this point we aren't even sure exactly what they have planted until we go and inspect which may be hard since we were told to leave this morning as the workers began.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
This isn't a new 'rule'. You stated that your docs already have the requirement that the forms must be submitted. What the others are suggesting is that you should document your policy on how you will enforce that rule. However, that doesn't prevent you from enforcing the existing rule anyway by whatever means the Board feels is reasonable.

As to being told to leave, didn't you say that this was on common property owned by all of the homeowners? Your response should have been to tell them to "plant" it where the sun don't shine.
TracieS (Colorado)
Posts: 460
Posted:
I'm not going to speak for Mary, but I am NOT suggesting you ignore the current violations.

First - do your current documents allow for fining for these violations? If so, then the policy just outlines how the bylaw/ccr is going to be enforced (the fining "schedule". It's not a NEW rule at all...

Second - inspecting their violations. If, in fact, the violations are in the common property, how would you NOT be able to inspect the violations? I'm not sure if you've specified, but are YOU on the BOD or the Arch Committee? If so, then you have every legal right to inspect any part of the common areas.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Nancy if your COA documents are anything like ours they specify what can and cannot be done on common & limited common elements. They require the violator to return them to the original state or allow the BOD to cause the work to be done with a special assessment against that unit to pay for the work. In addition if you have to sue them to make them play by the rules you can ask the court to make them pay the HOA's attorney fees. You don't always get them but some courts will grant them.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Nancy,

No I was not advocating that you ignore these violations. Only if the board chooses to adopt a rule that would impose a fine for not obtaining prior approval would they have to wait until the rule was adopted and sent to the members b/4 it can be imposed on any member. As other has said, your docs already give the board the authority to send violations notices and impose fines for violations.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Nancy,

Never give in to a person who threatens legal action. They are usually all bark and no action. Let her put her money where her mouth is and IF you contacted by her attorney you can respond. Meanwhile do everythig you can to put in writing to her that she is violating the covenants,etc.
NancyD5 (Wisconsin)
Posts: 71
Posted:
Thanks to all for your thoughts on this matter. I am on the BOD and all of us on the Board are new at this. None of us have ever even lived in a condo development before much less governed one so we are fearful whenever we are being challenged by a resident. There are only 10 residents and money is scarce so we can't just run to atty's for reassurance. We just can't seem to get it thru to some of these people that they alone do NOT own the land around their unit and that all of us do.

This being on the Board is much more difficult than I had thought. On one side we have a couple of residents who just continue to stir things up causing us to have to take a number of things to the atty. for clarification and then the rest of the residents are fuming over large atty. bills. Needless to say I have completely given up with the idea of all of us being friends and having a block party on a summer day.

Again thanks to everyone. I will take all your thoughts to the President.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Nancy,

No one ever said being a board member wasn't a thankless job! I've been there, done that so I know exactly what you are experiencing. The assn I was a board member of only consisted of 49 homes. IMO, the smaller the assn the tougher it can be for a board member. Most people cannot understand that being a board member means following all the rules even if you don't particularly agree with them. I hope all your fellow board members have the backbone to enforce the gov docs without regard to who is violating them. If not then there will be even more problems! Right now you may have members who don't want the CCRs enforced, but some day there may be a member (or more than one member) who complains that the CCRs are NOT being enforced.

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