board members together socially?

Can three members of a five man board accept invite to a social at one of the board members home for July 4th party without violating Az open meeting statue? or under what conditions, not to talk board business?

This is insane to even post this! One of our board members often invites me and another board member over for BBQ's etc. We are friends! Now the others who are not invited... we don't get along socially with them, so our board does board functions at meetings only. Beleive me, that when I say myself and the others who often chatter.. have alot more things to talk about other than board business. We save that dry boring crapola for meetings!

Well, as far as I can see it, nobody will ever dictate to me who and whom I will interact with on my own time.... so if that was brought up as an issue on this end.. NOTHING can be done about it.

All I can say if is this is a crime or something the jails are going to see a rapid population increase.

We had a manager that used to throw an annual party for the Board at his house. He invited me a couple of times, but I always had so many problems with the Board at their formal meeting I guess he figured I wasn't a good party quest. Our association throws a party every year for all the owners. I object to that, because I don't see anything in our documents that says you can spend association funds, not because the whole board or any number of BOD is there.

We just had Open Board meetings installed this year after twenty eight years, so I personally am not going to condemn a BOD from talking while at a social event.

I also don't see anything wrong with Board members getting together to have workshops and discuss Board operations. I can find too much stuff the Board does wrong to start fishing around for what was said at a cocktail party or something. But this gets into some legal stuff that is better left alone, unless there is reason for concern.

You could ask the question: Can six owners and three board members be in the same room together except at a meeting?

Maybe the question is: Is it proper for Board members to conduct Board Business at a social event or any other gathering for that matter and the answer is: No. Talking about the association is not conducting Board business. I have heard this stuff before and I am not saying that it doesn't have some validity, but the application would have to be specific and condemning or illegal activities.

Bob, this is a legitimate question and one that has been discussed here many times. It IS allowed, as long as you don't discuss association business. There will always, always be those who will accuse you of meeting "illegally" while all you're doing is socializing.

Go have a good time....just make certain that you DON'T discuss any business.

Bob,

Board members (even if there's a quorum) can get together socially and not be in violation of the OML as long as they do NOT discuss assn business. Whoever has been critizing the board, including the PM, do not understand the OML. Although the OML does not address social get-togethers of a quorum of the board, the topic was discussed in an AG opinion issued in 1997. Actually the question was whether a board could meet without noticing the members if they discussed business but did not vote on any matters. The AG's opinion was that a quorum of the board cannot meet to discuss assn business, whether they vote on matters or not, w/o noticing the members. The OML is NOT designed to prevent board members from gathering socially; only to prevent them from discussing assn business w/o noticing the members.

Have fun at the party with your friends, neighbors and fellow board members; just don't even "think" about the HOA!

Robert,

My Daddy always told me to keep my mouth shut if I didn't know what I was talking about. If the PM is going to advise the BOD on the law she should make certain she knows what it is.

Mary, you have referenced the AG decision many times. Could you post a reference please?

One of the things that no one seems to comment on is what is the appearance? Since homeowners are not there to hear if board items are discussed or not, anyone can assume the worst. The board members may not be breaking any laws but is meeting like this a wise thing to do? Obviously it is a matter of judgement. Personally I wouldn't do it, but then I am not in that social situation.

I see what I can find. The second reference to emails, as you state, does not apply to HOAs thus it cannot be used for or against this discussion. The AG was very strong when talking about emails that it applied only to the public meetings which have a different set of laws. As we both know, the AG will not get involved in HOA disputes in this state.

Robert,

I know that AG opinion only pertains to public bodies, but I feel the same guidelines would apply to HOAs. I just thought it was interesting to read the different scenarios and how the law would or would not apply. BTW, the public body OML is very much like the one for HOAs -- the intent is the same.

You're right, the AG will not get involved in HOA disputes. About the only thing he will do regarding HOAs is to issue an opinion or a memorandum regarding the OML from time to time.

Donna,
Hey, where have you been? See what happens when you are not here to maintain order.

Maybe we were a little curt with Bob, or it could have been we thought we responding to me.

Anyhow, now we will be on the stright and narrow. I guess you must have been out back harvesting the lower fourty acres. How's your ripe tomatoes doing and your sweet taters and that Silver Princess corn? I think every association should have on staff a Master Gandene and then the owners could sell vegtables at the Farmers Market so we could have a free Martini night.

Mary,

Now I'm confused..what does OML mean? DYKWIM? Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Do you know what I mean? LOL

Poor Bob certainly got a lashing over this posting! But I can't imagine that if someone ever protested this social gathering it isn't acceptable to simply say "It was a social gathering and none of your business!" This is an instance where a Home Owners Association sounds horribly close to big brother. -Tom

Robert,

Or LOL..laughing out loud. Get's confusing.

To everyone who doesn't live in AZ,

The tongue lashing given to Bob was certainly uncalled for. We've had many discussions regarding the AZ OML so you regular posters should remember some of the particulars. But, even if you don't, IMO, there's no reason to lash out and make accusations and form unjustified opinions just because someone asks a question. For everyone's benefit, I'll explain the law one more time.

AZ has an open meeting law which says all meetings of the assn must be noticed to the members. The members have a right to attend all meetings and even speak b/4 the board votes on an issue. This is the law whether we like it or not and oftentimes it creates much confusion. One bit of confusion is whether or not the board members can meet socially. The Attorney General wrote an opinion in 1997 affirming the fact that when a quorum of the board meets and discusses assn business, whether a vote is taken or not, it is a meeting and must be noticed to the members. It appears that Bob's PM got this law a bit wrong in stating a quorum of the board cannot meet for coffee. Also it appears that some members of the assn don't understand the law either and have made comments about board members meeting socially. The intent of the law is to uphold the right of the members to attend and speak at meetings. There is no intent to prevent board members from meeting socially as long as assn business is not discussed.

Those of you who take exception to this law can just be thankful you don't live in AZ or any other state with an open meeting law. And for those of you who do live in a state with an open meeting law, don't be surprised that the intent of your law is no different than AZ's. Frankly, this law poses no hardships on an HOA BOD and I'm glad we have it. And know that I've been on both sides of the fence! I see no reason why assn members should be outlawed from attending a board meeting. Afterall, what do the board members have to hide?

Bob, I sincerely hope you will continue to post on this forum. Sometimes we just hit send prematurely.

Ellen,

I think you're being very unfair to Bob. He asked the question because of what the PM stated and also because some members are questioning board members socializing. I believe he knew the answer but just wanted confirmation. A quorum of the board meeting informally doesn't necessarily mean it's a social event, but rather an informal meeting that hasn't been noticed. Yeah, the question is so inane that the AG had to write an opinion explaining it; so go figure!

I do wish you all would refer to the Poster by the Posters name.

I, as RobertR1 can get into enough trouble all by my lonesome.

I would believe that this law and any references in the covenants are speaking to an action being taken as a result of the conversation.

Has anyone heard of this law being enforced as a result of a social contact in the manner described?

I can well imagine the law would be enforced if these gatherings were planned to discuss Board business, and I can certainly believe that many Board members will not discuss association business in a social gathering.
My question: " is this a problem anywhere."

Ellen,
I think the posting, all of them were good. I would imagine they have generated some second thoughts on both sides of the fence. The subject was brought up looking for a definitive answer. I think some things are very difficult to explain and apply to all circumstances. We hardly ever post anything that does not require a judgement call on the OP. Anything connected with HOA's need to be evaluated and applied to the right circumstnces. It is not fatal if we stray from the "right" way. It would be distructive if we tried to push answers to fit out views, I don't see that happening here. Maybe we might want to get everyone on the "right" side, but we know that won't happen either.

Problems, as posted, rarely are solved completely to the satisfaction of all, but they can start the process of building the bridges necessary to make a better association.

Ellen,

I know you're only trying to defend your uncalled for actions. Please read my response to Robert. It's a serious offense to violate any state law, but most especially the OML. You may take this lightly, but I certainly hope no board member does. No one is making a mountain out of a molehill. Bob asked a very good question whether you like to believe it or not.

Hi!

RobertG12 of Arizona -- you said: “How about a scenario like this:

"The scene -
Sunday morning at the club house around coffee. Joe, Mary invite Fred and Ralph to sit and have a cup of coffee. The conversation -
Joe - Did you guys know how the Cub's game ended? I was watching and the storm we had must have taken out our power. It was the bottom of the ninth and the score was tied.
Fred - I heard the Cubs lost on an error. When I came over I saw a big tree that lost a branch from that storm you mentioned. Looks like it made a mess on the area around the pool. I am sure if we don't get it cleaned up soon, we will have that busy-body neighbor of mine hounding us like last time.
Mary - Maybe I can my brother to bring over a few of his guys to get it done today. He has told me he is trying to pick up work in the low economy. I am sure he will do the job for about $200.
Ralph - Sounds like a great plan, let's do it.
Joe, Fred, Mary - great idea.
Joe - Now tell me how the Cub's blew the game?
....
Would I let this happen? I doubt it, but I haven't been in this situation. I just hope this gives each of you something to consider.”

I live in an open meeting state (IL). Yes, this type of scenario has happened in our HOA. Any such “decisions”, though, have been ratified at the next regular Board meeting. This has been especially true for “emergency” situations, such as a tree down type you used as an example, and also for many “Alterations & Additions” requests from homeowners. (Please note that I am not implying that I agree or disagree with this.)

BobW5 of Arizona – you said: “Can three members of a five man board accept invite to a social at one of the board members home for July 4th party without violating Az open meeting statue? or under what conditions, not to talk board business?”

And:

“I am on the BOD and am President and was invited. The BOD has been critized in past for this and were told by PM that three BOD could not have coffee together , so for me this is a reasonable question.”

Just curious, why was your Board criticized in the past? What were the circumstances?

Bonnie

RobertG,
Best not to defend the Board because they make mistakes and then come on here and expect us to be perfect in your opinion. Is that what you are upset with about this site?

I can categorically state they we are very seldom "Right" to all our posters, but we, like you, post on here for opinions. You just posted a scenario about some fictional board members meeting at a pool and you ask for opinions on this non-reality situation, as you describe it. This was (apparently) in the time frame you posted this critical post of the folks that answer these posts.

I looked up "hooligans". I suggest you do the same.

I hope this gives you something to consider. (page out of your book)
As far as answering your example, let me suggest you answer it, and then all your problems would be solved.

We have many posters on this site that their concern, integrity, veracity and purpose has been well established long before you showed up. IMHO

Sorry, I got my "Roberts" mixed up

Robert, I am sorry if you misunderstood all that I said. I wish I could have been clearer for you to understand my post. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

RobertG,

You're scenario is the perfect example to my statement that a violation could very easily take place at a social gathering. That doesn't mean the board intentionally violated the OML, but in fact they did. If a h/o heard the conversation and wanted to really cause trouble it could result in members getting up in arms against the board and perhaps end up in a lawsuit.

I agree with you that the errant boards make up a very small minority of all the boards in AZ or for that matter across the country. I believe that the majority of boards are staffed by people who are dedicated to doing the very best job they can. Some people would like us to believe that all boards are crooked. In fact I've heard some HOA "advocates" say not only all boards are crooked, but so are all managers, all attorneys (especially if a member of CAI) and even all judges. That only leaves those HOA member advocates to be upstanding citizens. Believe that and I've got a bridge to sell in AZ!!

"Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down"

- Stephen Stills

Anna,

I commend you for your dilligence, but mostly for your patience and generosity if half of what you relate is part of your BOD service.