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KarenP1
Posts: 41
Posted:
Our by-laws say a lot owner is a member. A member, with his immediate family(resident)and guests, has a right to enjoyment of the common facilities. We allow clubhouse rentals by members for their private parties, etc.
Our club house was recently rented by a member for a relative who lives in another state who is arranging a local hich school reunion to be held in our clubhouse. I say this is a violation of both the by-laws and the rental policy becuase a high school reunion is not a private function of the member and the person arranging the high school reunion is not a resident(member). Am I off base?
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Do you absolutely know that the resident won't be part of the group? Also, do you actually know this is the case? Or is it hearsay?

Since it is probably hearsay I would probably ignore the rumor and not worry much about it. I figure I have enough to do without worrying about rumors of someone renting out the clubhouse on behalf of their brother. Especially since if he attends then he is technically using the facility just as it was intended. Certainly you will check the key out from him and get the key back from him. What next? set a person our to monitor all parties?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Plus, a high school reunion can easily be positioned as a private function.

KarenP1
Posts: 41
Posted:
Thank you for your responses. For clarification: the reunion is advertised in our local newspaper. The person who is listed as the contact person for the reunion lives in another state. I verified this on the web. So that person is not a member. Only members and their immidiate family are allowed to host functions in the clubouse for their own personal use. I bring this up only because we have been allowing people to rent the clubhouse for other people to have functions which does not seem consistant with the documents. Expample: a member rents the clubhouse for someone else to have a wedding reception. A member rents the clubhouse for a business to hold a function. These members are not neccessarily attending which is really sponsoring an event. The rules state the member must be hosting the function. The by-laws are clear as to the facilities being used only by members and their immediate family the their guests. I think it a stretch to say that another organization is the guest of the member.
So does this alter your views in any way? I just think we need clarification on the issue of others using our members to rent our clubhouse for their functions.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Karen, that's going to be difficult, because the host really is the member in all those examples, in my opinion.

I'm not sure how large your club house is, but it must be fairly sufficient to support some of those things mentioned.

And class reunions are often listed/promoted in local media.

Two of my brothers, my sister and myself are all withing a few years age range of each other. And all attended the same high school, and all graduated, in sequence, a year from each other (my two brothers in 72, me in 73 and my sister in 74).

If any of us were to be having a class reunion, we would either also be a part of each other's reunion or have cross-over invites from each.

If I had access to a club house that I could rent, I would certainly do that from either of my siblings, and not feel as though I were using or abusing the rules.

Size would be an issue, but I can't imagine using a clubhouse that wouldn't be sufficiently large enough to hold our expected attendees.

In addition, if I were a member of an organization, and I were renting the unit for a business function, even if I couldn't attend, since I'm a member of the organization, I'm still hosting it.

Po-tay-toe, poh-tah-toe. I can see arguments on both sides, is what I'm saying.

I think if the people who rent/use the clubhouse abuse it in terms of not cleaning up afterwards or conducting unethical business there, then that's a different sort of problem.

But if the dates are available, and it's first-come, first-serve, and the member is in good standing, I don't know that I'd pick those nits.

It's being rented (used) and not standing vacant collecting dust.

Plus, if you have been allowing such a broad interpretation, it's going to be really difficult to put that horse back in the barn without giving the appearance that it's a personal thing against the member.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Seriously, you can go one day without use of the clubhouse so your HOA can collect rental fees and keep your dues from increasing. Just suck it up. (wink) Someday you may wish to rent it too.

Unless you can prove the host did not attend, I would consider this a rental by members for their private parties. It doesn't matter who is the "official organizer" or where they live. they are being hosted, by the member.
AnneH2 (Florida)
Posts: 82
Posted:
Do your rules state that only a member can rent it or include also that the member must be present at the event?
KarenP1
Posts: 41
Posted:
Thank you all for your views on this subject. Our rules state the clubhouse can only be rented by a member for their own personal use and including a function such as their church outing, organization, social club, etc., that they are a member of and they must attend the function.

At our most recent meeting a board member brought up another recent request of a member to rent for a club to whcih they belong to hold their monthly meetings in our clubhouse. There was open discussion this time amongst the board members and it was voted not to allow this based on the kind of organization (a business organization?) and the monthly basis of the request. They deemed it was not a social organization and did not want to tie the clubhouse up on a monthly basis. This seems to be a resonable decision. During the discussion views were presented that the clubhouse was intended for the members, their family and personal guests. One board member wanted to readdress allowing clubs and etc. at all. The board ignored that request.

It seems the original intention of the by-laws was for owners in the community to rent for overnight guests (we have a full house) which they do not have room for in their house. For family reunions, family parties, family receptions and weddings, holiday parties etc. It seems to have evolved into something quite different. I can see several sides to the issue but keep coming back to intent of the by-laws.

It seems to me that all rules must consistant with the by-laws. But, there is always wiggle room.

In the last board meeign our president said "the by-laws are just guide lines"

??????????????????????????
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I dunno.

Color me confused.

I see no harm in the request for the monthly business meeting.

The excuse sounds petty and trite to me.

But, meh. It's not my clubhouse.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
A couple observations:
You have stated that the whole thing has been interpreted quite loosely in the past. Now if you are looking to tighten the rules then so be it. But to be honest, what I have read so far makes me wonder if you don't like this guy.

As for all the information you pointed to, it is quite normal that a reunion would have a number of people helping with organization. And the person from out of town volunteered to do that portion. Again, you have not established that this owner is not a member of the group. I can assure you that I am just an interested in some of the people my brother graduated with as he is. We both had friends in each other's class. In fact, my brother was dating one of my classmates when I graduated.

Quite honestly, based on what you have said I would be mostly concerned with the popularity of the time slot for the group wanting the clubhouse on a monthly basis. If they chose a quite popular time, then no. If they chose a time that was almost always unused then yes. And I would consider offering a discount if they went for a unpopular time slot.
JaniceM1 (Georgia)
Posts: 27
Posted:
For club house rentals, mostly there is a two part concern for the HOA: #1 insurance- the member needs to be present at the function (the entire time) #2- tax status (open rentals would not fall under non- profit).
Our Association looked into this topic because we bring in a lot of money through rentals.
Our council advised us that the resident/ member needs to be present while the function is taking place for insurance purposes. If anything where to happen the association's insurance should handle it, however the resident/ member may be liable for a portion.
We were even advised to add a clause to ask for rentals to indemnify the clubhouse rental under the member's homeowner policy for that rental. We were told that insurance companies do this all of the time (at no additional cost to the policy owner) and fax information to confirm the member is covered.
As far as taxes, you don't want to lose your non-profit tax status. Open retals and opening membership would throw your non-profit out the window.
I would consider class reunions as a private function. It maybe advertised, but it is not open to public. Members from that class are paying for tickets to go to that event.
Lastly, I suggest allowing nonprofit groups (501(c)) to reserve the club house for their monthly fuctions. It is a great way to get participation from those groups; Girl scouts and Boy scouts helping with clean up days, Red Hat Ladies helping with a Social Committee... I am not suggesting that you open any night to them, they have to work around the paid rentals.
I can understand the business group and the BOD choice, but we have rented our club house out to a local group (the one guy is a resident) and he holds monthly meetings (during the day).
KarenP1
Posts: 41
Posted:
Thank you all for your insight. It certainly shows how broad interpretations can be.
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Janice,

Could you elaborate on your #2? I was under the impression that if money is raised/earned by a NP on an occasional basis, but not as an end goal, that although taxes would need be paid, it would not endanger the corporate status.

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