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KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Through my research for my HOA, I had come across the covenants of a neighboring association, and an amendment to the original covenants had made me wonder. The following excerpt is from the amended covenants:

Each owner of any lot as set forth on the plat of XXXHOA, whether or not it shall be so expressed in their deed or other conveyance, shall be deemed to covenant and agree to pay XXXHOA an annual assessment in the amount of seventy-five dollars, regardless of whether said owner(s) is/are members of the Association.

If I interpret this correctly, this amendment says that regardless of if your property states in its deed that it is or is not restricted by covenants, this new amendment makes your property subject to the covenants, and regardless of membership, you must pay an annual assessment.

According to the document, this amendment was adopted by at least fifty percent of the lots "executing a written instrument making said changes". My question is, if my interpretation is correct, can a majority of homeowners force other properties not subject to covenants and restrictions to be subject to covenants and restrictions?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Frankly, this looks ludicrous.

This is worse than ultra-tiny small print.

"even if aren't a member, and even if your title and deed or any other documents of sale or ownership don't say so, you must pay me $75 a year."

Uh, Yeah. Right.

The check is in the mail. . . .
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Kevin, Since this is an amendment to the original Covenants I think the amendment was meant to apply to the annual assessment, not the CC&Rs. Although it could have been worded to not be ambiguous.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kevin,

I agree with Roger, this only applies to the obligation to pay assessments. However, by saying ". . .regardless of whether said owner(s) is/are members of the Associaiton." leads me to wonder if your HOA is voluntary. If it is a mandatory assn all property owners would automatically be members of the assn. But, if it is a voluntary assn, I think it's ludricrous to think that the members of the assn can require a nonmember to pay assessments. How many non-members were given the choice of voting for this amendment, I wonder. I also wonder how this "requirement" would hold up, in a court of law, against a nonmember.

BTW, the deed usually does not contain all the restrictions of the CCRs only the mention that there are deed restrictions (CCRs).
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I had read the original covenants for the neighborhood, and there is no mention of an annual assessment.

There is actually more to the amendment but it was very lengthy, so I had only typed the part of interest to me. The rest of the covenant goes on to explain how much the assessment can be raised per year, that the assessment is a personal obligation, and that the association has the right to recover the assessment and all other fees and costs associated with it. Another amendment amended at the same time also grants the HOA the power to enforce covenants, when previously that power was reserved for the owners (I assume this provision was added so the HOA could collect assessments).

Maybe it is a case of poor wording, and assuming that every homeowner's deed does state that they are subject to restrictions, then why make that statement.

I had looked up some of the deeds to see if some were and some were not subject to covenants and restrictions. Of the couple I printed out, each deed stated pretty much the same thing, that they are subject to covenants, restrictions, and easements. A couple were worded differently, stating "Subject to easements and restrictions of record, if any; however, this reference to easements and restrictions shall not operate to reimpose the same".

I was a little confused as to what the second half of that statement meant. Does that mean that the homeowner purchased a home restricted by covenants, but after its purchase, it was free from those covenants?

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 05/12/2009 7:23 AM
Kevin,

I agree with Roger, this only applies to the obligation to pay assessments. However, by saying ". . .regardless of whether said owner(s) is/are members of the Associaiton." leads me to wonder if your HOA is voluntary. If it is a mandatory assn all property owners would automatically be members of the assn. But, if it is a voluntary assn, I think it's ludricrous to think that the members of the assn can require a nonmember to pay assessments. How many non-members were given the choice of voting for this amendment, I wonder. I also wonder how this "requirement" would hold up, in a court of law, against a nonmember.

BTW, the deed usually does not contain all the restrictions of the CCRs only the mention that there are deed restrictions (CCRs).

This is actually not my association, but a neighboring one where some friends live. The reason why I was reviewing their documents was because their HOA shares the same attorney. I thought this was interesting because in my HOA, which is voluntary, the HOA had amended the covenants to state all owners regardless of membership have to pay an assessment. I am not a member but I got several invoices and was told it was going to their lawyer for collections. I thought it was worth a bit of time to look over my friends HOA's papers because the attorney had made similar changes in their association 8 years ago, as well as in my other HOA 7 years ago, and maybe it can offer some insight.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kevin,

Now I recall past messages from you! I'm thinking your friend's assn is also voluntary, otherwise it wouldn't state that assessments were mandatory whether you were a member of the assn or not.

It should be noted that if there are deed restrictions attached to a property it should be so stated in the deed and also on the title ins report. However, what those restrictions are would not be stated. You would have to read the CCRs to find out that info. And, most importantly, just because a property does have deed restrictions does NOT mean there will be an HOA, whether voluntary or mandatory. Usually the determining factor is whether or not there are common areas and amenities that require maint.

I don't believe anyone can be obligated to pay assessments to an HOA of which they are not a member. That is one thing I would definitely spend money on to fight!!
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
From reading the other HOA's covenants, the name of the HOA is mentioned in the covenants, so I assume that they were formed by the developer, but were voluntary. There is no mention of membership in the covenants at all.

In my HOA, the original covenants "urge" the owners to make a HOA, but no HOAs were ever formed.

Here is an illustration of my actual neighborhood. This was taken from the county GIS:

HOA Illustration

The pink/purple color identifies HOAs. My home is in the "NO HOA" area. The "HOA" is the organization trying to collect on me. The "OTHER HOA" was another section of the neighborhood that changed its name and is run by their own BOD.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I had also noticed after reading that some deeds mentioned the properties are subject to "covenants and restrictions" while others make no mention of "covenants" and are only subject to "restrictions, easements, etc."...

This leads to my question, considering that I've seen governing documents state "Covenants and Restrictions", and the wording found in these homeowner's deeds, are the terms "covenants" and "restrictions" different, the same, or partially interchangeable (much like a rectangle is always a square but a square is not always a rectangle)?

If that is the case, are those properties only subject to covenants that are restrictive in nature (Do not do this, do not do that...), and are not subject to covenants that demand payment or is the wording inconsequential, and a covenant is a covenant, restrictive or not?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kevin,

A property is subject to whatever is contained in the covenants, restrictions, etc. that are attached to that property. If there is not an HOA there will be no requirement to pay assessments. CCRs for HOA properties are much different that those for non-HOA properties. CCRs (covenants) for non-HOA properties only contain a litany of restrictions regarding the property.

Whether the deed says "covenants", "restrictions" or both, it means the same thing, and that is that there are limitations placed on the use of the property.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Kevin to answer your question, one would need to look to state law. In Texas it would take 2/3 of the owners to sign within a one year period to enact such a change. And then the remaining people would have one year to file a statement opting out of said change. Those who file to opt out are not subject to the covenant. (And I believe the next owners would not be either.) Those who don't file are subject. As a note, those who ratify to document can not then choose to opt out.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I would have to look into that... I had not agreed to any changes and had never signed any consent form. According to the original covenants, a majority of homeowners plus the approval of a local foundation is required. The HOA received a simple majority over the course of 3 years, and filed with the county (minus the foundation's approval). They still claim membership is voluntary and that I don't have to join, but in order to have a vote and attend their meetings, I need to be a member

I think it is funny that many of my neighbors signed the consent forms for the changes because the new covenants are extremely restrictive and grant all power to enforce CCRs to the HOA, with the BOD having the power to assess any amount at any time without membership approval, which is what alarmed me the most.

Through my research, I was under the impression that you cannot make such changes (changing from negative to positive covenants) without 100% of the homeowners... my situation has been brewing for years... a while back any change in the by-laws that restricted the BOD required a "supermajority" of 99% of the homeowners, but somehow that had gone down to 50%+1 and that is when things started getting messy.

I was hoping to have more information by the next HOA meeting so I could address many of these issues, but the HOA had rented a facility in a neighboring gated community and have instructed the gate keeper to only allow those with membership notices through...
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Kevin,
Has this been asked?

What is on file at the courthouse at the time these HOA's were chartered? Are they different, the same, is there any amendments to any of the original documents. Are any of these changes by vote of the associations on file and what do they say?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kevin,

Are there any amenities (tennis court, swimming pool, etc) that you are using that might cause the HOA to charge you assessments? If not, then as a nonmember you should not be liable for paying assessments. I would just ignore the late payment notices and bid my time until they take legal action. I cannot imagine a judge ruling in their favor if you can prove you are not a member of the HOA.

BTW, the fact that you are being barred from attending meetings because you are not a member is more proof for you. In fact, you may want to send a letter asking if you can attend a meeting. If they reply with that reasoning then you will have it in writing, from the HOA, that you are not a member. Just in case they do take you to court. Do you know if there are any other nonmembers being billed for assessments?
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
There are about 12 separate recorded covenants and restrictions that were recorded between 1973 and 1987. The two other HOAs have been around since 1973 and 1979. My section was built in 1983 and never established a HOA. In the 80s, the one association that wants to assess non-members amended their articles of incorporation saying that they are in charge of the other sections, but I am not certain how that would apply since my CCRs have specific instructions on how to form an HOA, so I don't believe an outside HOA can exert force.

As for amenities, the answer is no. There is zero common property. All retention ponds and grassy areas are owned by the county. They had installed water meters and electric meters on the county cul-de-sacs so they could plant grass and put in lights, but they do not own the property (which makes me wonder how they could do so anyway) The HOA had used the county to tax all the homeowners to build a brick wall, but the wall is located on the individual property owners' plat. They had mentioned that they were building things so they could then maintain them, hence needing the maintenance assessment. And as far as I know, there are a few other non-members not paying. I'm assuming that by the third collections notice, they were probably intimidated to pay because it was the letter stated it would go to their lawyer and the homeowner would be responsible for all legal costs. That was in March. I haven't heard back yet.

I had posted about this before, but new things seem to develop. The newest is their actual attempt to collect and holding their meeting in the gated community across the street. I had contacted the property manager for that organization and they stated only members can use their facility, so apparently the HOA had gotten a member to rent the facility. My plan was to go with a tape recorder and video recorder and ask to enter, since it is allowed by Florida Law and a copy of statutes that state Parcel Owners are allowed entry.

I do think writing a letter is a good idea because the only argument that I can see them making as to not allow us into the meeting is that we are not in their HOA, but that would throw out the requirement to pay an assessment argument.

The other thing is they state only members in good standing can attend. The articles of incorporation state that each property owner can vote, but the by-laws restrict voting to members in good standing... can the by-laws restrict voting if the articles make no mention?
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
made a mistake... the articles do state property owner and member in good standing, so strike that... but I still don't see how they can tell even members who are not in good standing that they can't come. In my opinion, they would be allowed to come since Florida statutes just say members and parcel owners, but they would not be able to vote.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kevin,

IMO, the FL statutes only apply to HOAs. So if you are not a member of an HOA they do not pertain to you. Members who are not in good standing should be allowed to attend meetings; usually the only restriction is that they cannot vote or use the amenities and this should be outlined in the bylaws. Remember you are not a member so don't try to push the point that you want to attend a meeting. Write that letter and hopefully get them to state in writing that you cannot attend because you are not a member. That will be excellent documentatin to support your case should they decide to take you to court.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
The only reason why I want to attend is because they have been insisting many homeowners have to pay, and I want them to clarify that point in front of the membership. Currently, the BOD really only tell the membership that the original covenants are significantly outdated and that their amendments are fully compliant with all current laws, statutes, and regulations, and if the homeowner refuses to pay, they would be forced to take legal action.

Last couple meetings, homeowners were confused as to why they were turned away, even though they had attended meetings in the past. I believe they are trying to keep certain detractors out, especially since there is a large lawsuit against them from a non-member homeowner! I have been trying to get more voting members to show up to help vote against the BOD and their proxies, but it has been difficult! I've offered to drive people there, to even make it a friendly get together and grab a meal afterward, but nobody is willing to do anything because they think it will cost them more to fight and they don't want to make their property a target for the HOA's code enforcement.

I simply just want the board to explain themselves in front of the membership.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kevin,

Frankly, I think you should just resign yourself to the fact that the board isn't going to explain anything to the membership. I also think you'd be much better off if you just bowed out and sat back. You may find that the threat of taking you to court to pay the assessments will just fade away.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary,
What a surprise post coming from you. But, I am sure you got your reasons.

I am not sure any of us understand exactly this organization ladder they have for this place, if it is one place and has one umbrella.
I don't like the Board (I think, which board I'm not sure), but any Board trying to solve their propblems with threatening letters. Especially as complicated as this member/nonmember status for just one HOA can be. I suppose there are some associations that this seems to work. I just can't imagine how, so, if this is close to the truth, it appears some one is going to be unhappy and paying more that an equal share. Now if the board has this all drawn up and ready to present the plan, more power to them, I hope it all works. Sounds like trouble brewing to me and not the kind of trouble that is going to resolve with out help. Could be Kevin should become a lurker, but I hate to see any owner in any association decide.......to hell with it, I'll wait till the devil comes knocking on my door.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,

Here's where I'm coming from. Kevin is not a member of the HOA, he has chosen not to join. However, the BOD has sent him violation notices for nonpayment of assessments. I believe the HOA has no legal reason to expect nonmembers to pay assn assessments. Kevin has stated there are no amenities in the community; therefore the BOD cannot accuse him of using the amenities, thus justify payment of assessments. The BOD has threatened to take him to court but so far it's only a threat. Kevin has had almost constant contact with the board which, IMO, only keeps his supposed delinquency in the forefront. By just keeping quiet the board may just forget about him, especially if they realize they cannot legally require a nonmember to pay assessments. Frankly, I don't know that there is anything Kevin can do, anyhow, so what harm can it be to just lay low for now?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary,
Can't argue with your logic, provided he is the lone holdout. Then you have to wonder why he is the only one. So, if there are others in the same boat, I doubt all will be forgotten.

In any event these kind of HOA's seem to present a different response from management as far as who pays what and or course the absence of common property paints a different picture I suppose. I would venture a guess that nearly all the problems we hear about from these kinds of HOA are settled in house individual by individual. This non-member/member status must be designed to see how many problems you can create, my opinion of course.

I can see a scenario, as you pointed out, that his frequent contacts may be forcing the management to say something and of course they could be using this as a test case. I think I remember this is not a new association (s), and maybe the problem is just resurfacing because of a different Board(s).
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,

I seem to recall Kevin saying there were others who didn't sign up but after being threatened with legal action they paid up. I'm of the impression he's the lone holdout, but, of course I may be wrong.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I am unsure of how many are "hold outs". I know of at least 5. I have tried to maintain communication with those who disagree with the actions of the Board to try and coordinate. I feel there is always strength in numbers and a common contributing factor in those paying up is that they feel paying the assessment is cheaper then fighting the assessment (which the HOA's lawyer has made it clear that the homeowner would be responsible for their legal fees as well).

Basically, my family has taken Mary's suggestion and decided to wait and see what happens. From my research, I would say that any reasonable judge would shoot them down in a second and their harsh language may have been a method to get people to join or pay... I do know of some people who joined because they figured if they were going to pay, they might as well join (but once you check in you can't check out)!

I am uncertain if the way they are going about things are common, but my theory is that the Board is getting advise from a bad lawyer, and since the lawyer had done this kind of thing previously, in their eyes it somewhat legitimizes their actions.

The Board has essentially been the same since 2001. Last year, two members resigned. The two directors were Code Enforcement and County Liaison and the Board had just filled those positions with the President and Treasurer.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Kevin, not to mention the fact that just because their lawyer says you have to pay if you lose, doesn't make it so.

Our governing docs say the losing party does, but the judge makes his own decision.

In the 3 cases we've had go to court, the judges only made 2 of them pay. The other we each had to pay our own attorney's fees and the losing party paid court costs.

Which, in the scheme of things, aren't usually that much.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I had noticed that the law mentions the recovery of "reasonable". I would assume that this would keep lawyers from having a charge of 500$ for reading an email!

I had read the court documents from my friend's HOA where my HOA's lawyer had taken one of his neighbors to court for non-payment of assessments. They were made to pay close to $3000 (my HOA's attorney actually cited this case as a reason why they could recoup the costs).

I would assume that a reasonable judge would look at all the information that I would present and see that I was not paying for the sake of not paying, but because I had very good reason to question the assessment.

If the HOA has been working off an assumption that their amended covenants are legal, they had actually included in their covenants the following:

"The Association shall have the right to recover its attorney’s fees and costs incurred as a result of the Lot owner’s failure to pay said assessment, whether or not suit is actually filed".
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kevin,

As Michele says, the judge will make the determination as to who pays what, regardless of what is in your gov docs. The judge will also make the determination as to what is "reasonable". Frankly, I cannot imagine a judge ruling that you MUST pay assessments to an HOA of which you are NOT a member, no matter what the amended docs say. That to me that is just plain ludricrous. I also agree with Michele in that just because a lawyer says it OK doesn't mean it is! Many a lawyer has been proven to be wrong. This guy got away with pulling this scam (IMO, that's what it is!) on another assn and now he's trying to do it with yours. This is what happens when the board is filled with unsuspecting, unquestioning members with no common sense. Of course this is just my opinion!
LaurieL (New Jersey)
Posts: 3
Posted:
I live in an Historic CLUBHOUSE community MEMBERSHIP FOR PROFIT CORPORATION--with UNDIVIDED SHARES. THE BOARD HAS FILED AS AN HOA OR CONDO ON TAX RETURNS, ETC.

I have a COVENANT ON MY DEED THAT STATES:

"The land and premises are conveyed SUBJECT to the Rules, Regulations and By'laws of XXX INC., a New Jersey Corporation. No dwelling house or other house or structure shall be erected on the conveyed property until the plans, specification and house lines for the proposed site development and structure have been submitted to and approved by the Board of Trustess of XXXXX ., in accordance with the Rules, Regulations and By-laws of XXXX.

In a claim against my title company further deed research, I discovered the following:
1. THERE ARE NO COVENANTS. Roads that are being claimed as private, common areas, are in fact owned by the Township, and maintained by the CLUBHOUSE COMMUNITY. They are also used to LITIGATE AS A COMMON OWNERSHIP MEMBERSHIP AGAINST MEMBERS.

2. The last amendment to the Bylaws purges out the ability of the BOD to issue deeds with restrictions and Covenants.

3.Historic, Cobbled, Bylaws state membership is mandatory, but also contain amendments that are not registered, and appear to contain inserted Articles--such as a Charges and Fees Article.

4. There is a DISSOLUTION CLAUSE in the Bylaws that states assets shall go to membership upon dissolution.

QUESTION: IS THIS COVENANT ON MY DEED VALID--if there are no COVENANTS--SIMPLY UNSOLD ASSETS??

Oh, and the corporation is INSOLVENT, so the BOD has just doubled 'dues,' effectively wiping out smaller homes' equity.

thanks

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