HOA/Condo records

Robert,

IMO, the only thing in a member's "file" should be:

1) his name, address, phone number and lot or account number
2) all architectural requests and approvals
3) all letters to and from the member
4) copies of any legal actions taken against, or initiated by the member

"Among other things" could be ANYTHING and I would hate to think of what an errant board could include in this "catchall phrase"!

As for allowing any member to view ALL the personal files, I think that is terribly wrong. A member should only be allowed to view his own personal file, all other personal files should be considered confidential info.

Could you post the bylaw article word for word? Thx!

Robert, while anyone with a legitimate interest may inspect the records of the Association only the BOD, MC or the homeowner themselves may inspect their personal account. While most of the information contained in the personal accounts is available in the public domain, we do not give it out. In addition we collect information on each person who lives in a unit including their place of employment and phone numbers. This latter information is required by law in Ohio for condos.

5311.09 Unit owners association records.

(A) (1) The unit owners association shall keep all of the following:

(a) Correct and complete books and records of account that specify the receipts and expenditures relating to the common elements and other common receipts and expenses ;

(b) Records showing the allocation, distribution, and collection of the common profits, losses, and expenses among and from the unit owners;

(c) Minutes of the meetings of the association and the board of directors;

(d) Records of the names and addresses of the unit owners and their respective undivided interests in the common elements.

(2) Within thirty days after a unit owner obtains a condominium ownership interest, the unit owner shall provide the following information in writing to the unit owners association through the board of directors:

(a) The home address, home and business mailing addresses, and the home and business telephone numbers of the unit owner and all occupants of the unit;

(b) The name, business address, and business telephone number of any person who manages the owner’s unit as an agent of that owner.

(3) Within thirty days after a change in any information that division (A)(2) of this section requires, a unit owner shall notify the association, through the board of directors, in writing of the change. When the board of directors requests, a unit owner shall verify or update the information.

(B) (1) When elected members of a board of directors of a unit owners association take control of the association, the declarant or developer shall deliver to the board correct and complete copies of all of the following:

(a) The books, records, and minutes referred to in division (A) of this section;

(b) The declaration, the bylaws, the drawings prepared pursuant to section 5311.07 of the Revised Code, as recorded, and any articles of incorporation of the unit owners association, as recorded;

(c) Except in the case of a conversion condominium, documents, information, and sources of information concerning the location of underground utility lines, and plans and specifications that are not proprietary or copyrighted, of the buildings, other improvements, and structures of the condominium property that are reasonably available to the developer, but only in connection with condominium developments declared on or after the effective date of this amendment and condominium developments that are declared prior to that date but originally built or constructed on or after that date.

(2) The board of directors may commence a civil action on behalf of the unit owners association in the court of common pleas of the county in which the condominium property is located to obtain injunctive relief or recover damages for harm resulting from the declarant’s or developer’s failure to comply with division (B)(1) of this section.

Robert, the way I would interpret the phrase "amongst other things" is that the file must have the things listed but can contain other things. Like correspondence between the HOA and you, history of repairs to your unit done by the HOA, etc. I agree corporate America keeps way too much information on us all, I mean those handy dandy "convenience cards" your supermarket, drugstore, gas station gives you for discounts is just their way of keeping track of your buying habits, so they can sell you more. Oh and to sell the information to others. So I wouldn’t be worried so much about what's in your HOA file; besides I bet somewhere in your CC&R's it says you have the right to review it.

Glen,
You are right, I do have the authority to review my record as discribed...........but so does every other owner of record.

As far as worried about what is in my HOA file, that is not the question and I ask that you don't belittle the subject. I don't want anyone in my association being judged by some personal account of some incident the manager or any Board member elects to put in my file. I further don't want any of my fellow members feeling intimidated because they got snoockered on night and played strip poker in the B B Q area, and are afraid a board member ten years down the line might pass some kind of moral judgment on them. Or........more likely, some entrenched board member taking offense because an member is getting up a petition to throw his butt off the board and he feels put upon so he starts passing out some long ago information from one of these files, and inserts in my record, I am a troublemarker.........a common label I have picked up a time or two.

Have they not heard of the Amendments to the Constitution?

Here in FL. we also have the Sunshine Law.

Thanks for the replies,
I think we are coming around to what could be a problem in many associations and I'm guessing is either ignored of never considered.

All the replies are worthy of consideration and I am on my way in my association to make this an issue as soon as the dust settles around here. Certainly a good sunshine law is helpful and examining the records can be done, but the practice is what bothers me. I also want to add that this is not a problem in a well run organization, it is under control. How many associations that post here are in trouble. I would say considerable and more falling by the wayside.
Our new president just attended a seminar on Board Member Duties and responsibilities. This was put on by a Management company and featured some well known names in SC HOA/condo Association law and management.
I asked him one single primary message that seemed to be upfront. His answer was: communication. Not surprizing and also something that oft times is neglected.

So, as most of those posting here know, every change in routine association life has resistance, both good and bad; but more important it takes time and a sense of recognizing the right time and place.

Donna:

Thank you for making this key point.

The Sunshine Laws do not in all states pertain to the operations of HOAs and condos.

In NY as you relayed they apply to governement functions and when a business is doing some work in connection with a government agency.

Some people simply fail to do the minimal amount of research and decide for themselves they have the right to see, attend, and take part due to a legal ruling which does not pertain to their situation.

And Robert:

From your postings I will assume you do not hold a position on the Board of your property. Perhaps if you did you would have a better idea of the content of these files.

We maintain files on all units on our property as required under the by-laws. As mentioned these cover mostly financials, violations, leases, correspondence and any other mundane information that should be kept. We are NOT talking about FBI files hardly and I doubt the members serving on your Board are named J Edgar Hoover. While it is certainly within your rights to wonder I would suggest perhaps you determine the contents of your file before planning some appeal to the Supreme Court for determination.

The two reasons we maintain these files is 1) we are required to do so 2) in the event we need to produce records we have them.

In 22 years on our Board I have not seen one occasion where anyone requests to view a file. Trust me there are more important issues facing the members of our Board other then who said or did what 15 or 20 years ago.

We have many serious problems and challenges facing us all, Board members and owners alike I would suggest to you the content of your HOA file would not be one of them.

JonD,
Well Jon, I could take strong issue with a lot of your assumptions and specific exception to a lot of what you conclude.
Your conclusions that no one has asks to look at their file in twenty two years is indicative of something is baseless. It may be that your board doesn't invite owners input, who knows, but it sure doesn't justify anything.

You statement that you keep mundane files? Why it the world would you do that. What good is a mundane file.

I have lived in associations for 37 years, have been active in all. I know my limitation and I know my effectiveness and don't need to hear again I don't have any idea of what faces a board member. My closest friends in my association are all Board members now, and we have no problems existing harmoniously together. Our Board meetings are now open and in the near future ALL items will be open and available. And please don't mention ES, I understand why they are held, I also understand that certain states get along find without them. I would suggest your association would not be a fit to do away with them, nor is the one I am living in, but times change my friend and the ES is going to be a thing of the past and something reasonable will takes it's place in association living.

You may have read some of the posts about how these documents we live under are devised and why their birth was necessary and the primary cause was not to create a bunch of happy campers, it was to create a platform for the developer to reach bottom line as cheaply and as profitably as possible.

I am not trying to change your world, I got enough to do coping with mine. All I can state are opinions, all we can do is take all this stuff as opinions, not mandates. I certainly will give considerable thought to what you have written, however, most of our conclusions have been considered and resolved by me years ago. I would make a terrible board member, I know enough to know that, too bad it is can't be mandated that you have a to be a good board member to serve.

Robert

I suggested to you with 20 years on our Board the Board members don't sit around and pull a file each month to relive the details in some owners file. Whether you understand or not we have better things to do.

You question about why we keep files I thought I had explained. Guess I was wrong.

You comments about ES well where that came from I don't know.

And the history lesson about the origin of property documents. Wasn't part of the discussion.

I would like to comment on the following quote from your post but can't determine its meaning.

"I certainly will give considerable thought to what you have written, however, most of our conclusions have been considered and resolved by me years ago."

You've made conclusions for everyone???? You lost me.

If you insist on spending your time worrying about some diabolical details in your file you certainly have the right to do so.

JonD,

"I certainly will give considerable thought to what you have written, however, most of our conclusions have been considered and resolved by me years ago."

Why is this confusing. You told me I had no idea on the considerations of a board member, you concluded therefore I didn't have a valid opinion. I said I would consider what you said, but what you said had been considered years ago and discarded, as far as it applies to how effective I can be to make my association better.
Get done off your Board High Horse Jon, the people you are trying to please are the people you say can't possibly understand the problems of running a board. You might ask how you got elected before you start condeeming those that elected you.

I also think I have enough creditablity on this site to be able to post some questions that should concern us all. It is apparent you have never had a rogue board or paid attention to some of the rogue manangers or property management companies. Now if you are happy with them keeping mundane files on you, I don't have a problem with that, but not on me.

If you read some of the constructive posts on my OP you will see that my documents do indicate that the file is referring to the unit in a condo. I never gave that any consideration but the folks that drafted our docs did.
I don't like to make specific allegations but maybe I will make a exception. A management person conveyed to a friend of mine that he had a file (and gestured a space of 8' inches)on him this big. Now, I didn't like that. In reality all files should be about the same size. Sure you have the exception as you noted about the letter writer and people like me who do voice their complaints. But over time of twenty years and living in a unit 24/7 and 80% of your owners are absentee, does it come as a surprize my "file" may be larger. But and this is my point, that information is not covered under my documents and there is no reason to include it in any file.

I am sorry I can't agree with your position as a Board member but the last time I looked at my documents there was no provision that requires this.

You are a very capable board member and I am very sure, that given my circumstances living in my association we would have no difficulty working toward the betterment of all. All associations wax and wane, our is on the upswing after at least twenty years of management that could have been better, looking at our record. We were lucky, we had enough interest to keep some degree of effeciency, but we can be a whole lot better and we are going down that road, and this "file" will be addressed and adjusted.

Robert, I think I sense what is going on here.

As I mentioned, files on each lot (unit) are not only not unusual, but I don't see how an HOA or a COA could function year to year without one.

Now, regarding the "I have a file. . ." syndrome.

That's another issue entirely.

Karl Rove has lots of files on lots of people. He's said so. In public.

The impression he's given is that there are sort of unsavory things in them and one better watch their step.

Well, it strikes me that the "management" person who issued a similar intimidating comment was doing just that, trying to pull some garbage.

I would bet real money (and not the fake money I bet on the Derby yesterday) that there really is no such "file" on either you or your friend or anyone else in your development. My guess is that what's in your'alls' file is just the sort of stuff most HOAs keep, resident communications, ARC approvals, etc, etc.

If there is more "personal" stuff, then it's a quirky thing that the "management" person is keeping and doing outside of what is required to be kept on people.

And, the thing is, it's darn near impossible to prevent anyone from keeping a file on someone, regardless of whether one's docs allow for them or not.

You get someone with the mindset of a Karl Rove, there's no telling how many files he/she has on anyone.

I would also bet real money that there are some nosy bodies in my own subdivision who keep "files" on their neighbors.

I can understand why you're put out by the implication, but I highly doubt that the board keeps those kinds of "files" on people.

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead and request to review the file on your unit.

Carol,

I don't know what a "voter Rep" certificate is. However, I can tell you that anyone who's name is on the deed can vote. If there is more than one name on the deed, it's up to those individuals to determine who is going to cast the vote for the lot. For example, my husband may decide to prepare and cast the ballot one year, while I may do it another year.

Donna,
Clear up this "persons" you refer to as the voter of record.
Not sure I understand these "persons" who represent the voter for the unit.

In ours each unit submits one name that has the vote. This name must be on the deed or some kind of legal POA, or something like that.

We have no mention of a "certificate", just an authorization letter from each unit.

I suppose this "voter of record" could be used to signify who is eligible to vote for that unit and more than one person could be on it, and I suppose that vote could be vetted by going through the names listed and allowing one of those named to cast the ballot. I would think with a large number of units this could be a major job.
With 65 units, it takes us maybe 15 mins to vet any voting at the annual meeting. We use the double envelope method. We also count apportionment for voting on budget and quorum.

Michele,
This is nothing new, just an item that has not bubbled to the surface.
All the turmoil and unhappiness with HOAZ can't be laid at all boards feet. But those that are in trouble, that has to be considered. And to see some of our successful turn around at a few association we monitor on this site, it is clear that often bad boards are involved. When the change out occur es and the new regime takes over they are left with God knows what to clear up, because if this new broom don't sweep clean, then they become responsible for past sins........so to speak.
Personal file collecting is not new in politics, government or business. Most is necessary and maybe even required, but the new broom better find out what is hanging around in the file drawers. Incidentally that goes for well run associations that may have some suspect information in their files from past managements or boards.

I have no interest in what is in my file. I only want to know this information is necessary to carry on the association business. I seem to have stepped on someone's toes and right away the action is defensive. I expected too much and I am sorry I made the post, not because it is a non-issue but because it got all tangled up. Courts are becoming more and more demanding on the conduct of BOD and owners are becoming more and more demanding on the Boards. I can not see any of this being a problem with a good board, but a little self inventory never hurt anyone and if an association has got a bunch of correspondence on individuals that is damning and someone editorializing, I suggest they clean their files. All that crap is only important at the moment anyway. Example: Your neighbor writes a letter to the board and calls you a SOB because you kicked at his dog. The manager attaches his investigation and remarks his files show you have been called an SOB three years ago and maybe the manager should have a talk with this ow mer and tell him his record is not too good. Beware!

Gee, Robert.

Where to start?

If anyone (including a management company) received a letter like you used in your example, calling someone an SOB for kicking their dog, well, I can't imagine at all that a letter like that would even be placed into anyone's file, much less kept in it.

For one thing, not a single bit of it has anything to do with HOA or COA business whatsoever, and quite frankly, is offensive.

In the trash it would go.

But my guess is that most bad boards don't even keep files, so there's probably not much in there to deal with.

For the ones that have been regimes for a while that have been oppressive, well, I would imagine that a new crew coming in would not even bother sorting through it. At least not any of the personal stuff. They'll be too busy trying to get the organization back on track.

And to be honest, as many people as we have post on here, we only see a mere fraction of what is out there (regarding HOAs) and that is even only by residents who are eager to search it out.

So while I agree that there are plenty of bad boards, I would also contend that there might well be a lot more good boards than we think. This is just one little corner of the HOA universe.

For one thing, other than one other poster a while back, I do not see any representatives from any other HOAs from Kentucky here.

I happen to know there are hundreds here in my area. Of those hundreds, I know board members or residents in roughly 20 or 30 of them.

So. Just saying.

But to get back to the personal file thing, I think that has more to do with the type of personality that would do that sort of thing, and I don't think one has to be a board member to be that type of person.

Michele,
If you give it some thought and think about what the reaction should be, you have to balance a knee jerk reaction with the big picture. I think it was handled right, the same way I am handling finding out about these files. We have some ferocious loyal members here, they have one goal and that is to make a better association. As clearly stated, we are going through a change over and as clearly stated we are taking control and the folks doing this are people from the above category. No, we don't know, and don't particularly care what files he is referring to. So I go read our documents, post the pertinent section and ask how other associations handle personal files held by management.

Granted it is complicated and can range all over the place, but the question I thought I posed was how do other associations deal with them. I got some good feedback and your remarks are appreciated as always. But I am sure you understand we do have some sense of what to do and when to do it and we don't feel the association would benefit in any way to make an issue of the remark at this time. However as this transition takes place and time is certainly a factor, there will come a time down the line on what that remark meant and if there is any personal files that do not contribute to association business they will be destroyed. To demand their explanation and request any action, if they do exist, at this time is counterproductive.
I wanted to know how other associations handle it.

Frankly, I agree there are many well run associations that we are not privy to and I am aware that some reading Hoatalk find nothing here to take away. That's just the way it goes, but I am surprised that there is no reaction from any posters that might comment, I wonder what my management company files on me contain? You are assured any files your management keeps are necessary and do not contain any damning or incorrect information. I would not be so sure of our past management.

Oh. not to be snide but you mentioned that if any damning files or letters or information any management would come across they would be destroyed because no one would want that kind of information on file. I would call attention to the Watergate tapes and the resignation of the President of the United States, think that hasn't happened again? And No, I do not consider the two to be alike in importance or magnitude.

But, I'm done, I got some good stuff back and hope I have learned not to be so confusing or indirect or misleading or something when I ask questions. And as always I enjoy going back and forth with you, you are a formidable adversary and I do not take you lightly or your remarks lightly.

Michele,
You are my most favorite adversary and there is nothing wrong in admiring what folks think that don't always agree with you.

Maybe that is what is in my file...............my drinking record, nope can't be that, they don't build big enough cabinet drawers. But all that is behind me and I am left with plain cantankerous and wild pitches. I just can not abide someone feeding me a line of crap and through some twisted gene, they are convinced I should trust them. Still have the same sins I had at twenty and have slacked off considerably in amassing tickets. I like to feel good and at times the people that post here make me feel good about people.