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AnnaA (California)
Posts: 15
Posted:
We just received new R&R. Under soliciation it that "solicitation, religious distribution, written personal opinions and/or written political statements of any knd by any person, business, homeowner etc. are strictly prohibited without the prior approval from the Board of Directors."

The fine is $500.00....more than CC&R violations!

Now most of us do not want door to door soliciation...that is a good thing...but no written personal opinions...isn't that kind of a violation of the First Ammendment?

I think this came about because the Board wanted to but in speed bumps and some people in the neighborhood passed out a flyer about the pro's and con's of speed bumps...mostly con's and a lot of people called and wrote in saying they did not want them and the Board decided not to put them in. Why I think this is because at the last Board meeting the president asked if anyone knew about the flyer.

These are my questions:

1. Can a Board stop free speech or freedom of expression in writing over-riding the law of the land?

2. The Board was not specific in stating if soliciation by the US mail could be monitored by the Board...example: some people have businesses and do direct mailings to the whole city, can a Board stop a homeowner from mailing out their business soliciation to the addresses in the assoication and if so, how do they stop all soliciations by businesses?
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I can hear the dialing of the phones to the ACLU now . . .

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
great questions!

In general (insert tons of legal disclaimers here), no, they cannot do this (see below for caveats, however). You could, in theory, give up your rights to the 1st (or other) amendments by signing a contract stating you do. However, unless this particular "rule" were to be made a portion of your legal covenants, as an amendment, say, by a large majority of owners, I doubt any board can successfully apply it. A couple directors voting in a board meeting doesn't likely reach the rules the by-laws would require for such a "huge" sweeping change.

On that note, it should be mentioned: the 1st amendment speaks specifically to the GOVERNMENT trampling your rights to assembly and free speech... and your HOA is not truly a government entity. So yes, they CAN try to abridge your rights, just like Costco or WalMart can deny you the right to assemble or solicit, etc.. However, Costco gets away with that because they OWN the property you want to assemble upon. I believe that the HOA could well deny owners the right to post things on common areas, or even assemble and "speak" or "write" in those common areas, but they couldn't stop you from doing it from land you own.

As for the solicitation, search the forum for 'home based businesses', you will find lots of discussions about this issue, what it means, and how it is or isn't enforced in the 21st century.

I would be interested, however, in how your board will do their next elections... how do you open a floor for nominations, for example, without supporting solicitation?

(reminds me of my own company, who is adamant about making it a policy that "no one is allowed to solicit or exchange information with any other employee" while working.... I asked how i could do training if i wasn't allowed to exchange information, and they accused me of being a smart ....)
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Anna: "1. Can a Board stop free speech or freedom of expression in writing over-riding the law of the land?"

The "law of the land" only prohibits GOVERNMENT abridgment of free speech.

Private corporations can. And do.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
If contested, I would like to see a judge uphold this rule! What happens during election season when an "opposing opinion" runs against the board? Are they deemed unapproved and fined the amount?

AnnaA (California)
Posts: 15
Posted:
Can a Board control written options via email or US mail? A corporation is owned by people other than employees. An Assoication are the homeowners.
AnnaA (California)
Posts: 15
Posted:
Thanks Brian,

I own a business that is not home based. We advertise to a list of homeowners in my city and surrounding cities. The addresses of my neighbors are some of the many addresses I advertise to in my data base. One of the Board members has 2 vans in her driveway with her company logo on it, so before I tackle this problem with the Board, I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Anna, it is type of cra…er crud like this that gives HOA's the bad rap. This rule IMHO would not withstand a court challenge as being reasonable. But since you're in California that may not even be necessary because the BOD has many hoops to jump through before imposing a new rule and the members can actually override the rule:
(From davis-stirling.com)(bold by little old me)

Adopting Rules

"Operating Rules" are defined as any regulation adopted by the board of directors that applies to the management and operation of the association or the conduct of its business and affairs. Civil Code §1357.100 This includes pets, parking, use of the common areas, member discipline, architectural standards, election procedures, any schedule of monetary penalties, etc. Civil Code §1357.120(a)

Excluded are decisions relating to common area maintenance, a specific matter (as opposed to a general policy), assessment amounts, a nondiscretionary rule change required by law, or a rule that repeats existing law or the Association's Bylaws, CC&Rs or Articles of Incorporation. Civil Code §1357.120(b)

Enforceability. Civil Code §1357.110 An operating rule is enforceable if:

* in writing,
* within the board's authority,
* consistent with governing law and the associations governing documents,
* adopted in good faith, and
* reasonable

Notice of Proposed Change. At least 30 days before a vote on adopting or amending an operating rule, the board must mail a copy of the proposed change to the members, along with an explanation of their purpose and effect.

Adoption in Open Meeting. After the 30-day period, the board may adopt the rules at a duly noticed open meeting of the board, taking into consideration of any comments made by association members. Civil Code §1357.130

Notice of Adoption. Within 15 days of voting on the rules, the board must notify the membership of the results of the vote. Civil Code §1357.130

Member Veto of Rule Change. Members owning 5% or more of the separate interests may call a special meeting of the members to reverse a rule change. Civil Code §1357.140(a) The written request may not be delivered more than 30 days after the members of the association are notified of the rule change. Civil Code §1357.140(b) The board must give notice of a special meeting and send out ballots pursuant to Civil Code §1363.03. The rule change may be reversed by the affirmative vote of a majority of the votes represented and voting at a duly held meeting at which a quorum is present. Civil Code §1357.140(c)

Notice and Ballot. Notice of the meeting and ballot are sent by the board. The board must also notify members of the results of this vote within 15 days. If an operating rule is reversed, it cannot be re-adopted by the board for at least one year. However, the board may vote on other operating rules covering the same subject. Civil Code §1357.140(f)&(g)

Emergency Rule Change. If the board determines that an immediate rule change is required to address an imminent threat to public health or safety, or an imminent risk of substantial economic loss to the association, it may make an emergency rule change; and no notice is required. An emergency rule change is effective for 120 days. Civil Code §1357.130(d)

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AnnaA (California)
Posts: 15
Posted:
Wow! Thank you!
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleD on 04/28/2009 6:03 PM
Anna: "1. Can a Board stop free speech or freedom of expression in writing over-riding the law of the land?"

The "law of the land" only prohibits GOVERNMENT abridgment of free speech.

Private corporations can. And do.
This comment is so absurdly ignorant of law that it really does not deserve consideration or even refutation.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Thanks for your input, "George."

It's right up there with the best of them!

Keep playing, because absurd is your middle name!

I am asking the monitors of this site to enforce some "censorship" regarding your repeated insults and offensive posts.

Thanks for playing!
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Pot - Kettle ....

At any rate, George is wrong. As Michele noted, private corporations can and do impose limits on "free speech". The major multi-national corporation where I work won a court case a few years ago where an employee tried to sue because he was told to remove his religious propaganda. The court ruled that his posters and fliers where not protected in the private workplace.

More relevant to HOAs though - look at campaign signs. As has been posted here many times, depending on the state, homeowners don't automatically have the "freedom of speech" right to post campaign signs in their yards. The U.S. Supreme Court has basically punted the issue back to the states, where some states have ruled that HOA restrictions on signs are not valid, while other states have ruled that they are. Those of us in states where no ruling has been made one way or the other will have to decide for ourselves if our CC&Rs allow signs - at least until somebody does challenge it in court.

As to mail, I don't see how the HOA could place any restrictions on that. I don't even think that would be a freedom of speech issue. I would think that would be covered under the Postal rules.

I would think that the real issue here would be as Glen pointed out: does the HOA Board even have the right to enact a new restriction (regardless of the free speech aspect) without the approval of the membership? Typically R&Rs from the Board only clarify how the restrictions that already exist in the CC&Rs will be enforced. The Board usually can't come up with a new restriction on their own.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

My 2 cents worth.

Because this is a private community, they can post signs that say "no solicitation" for what that is worth. That would mean door to door, trying to sell something.

""Solicitation: means to importune, or endeavor to persuade or obtain by asking, "

So now, how will the Board try to enforce this amoung it's own members? Get the membership together and face the Board at a meeting. Remind them of speech rights, remind them that they can be removed as fast as they were elected, remind them that they do not control a dictatorship and that the members do have the right to communicate amoung themselves. Who circulated the speed bump flyer was not their concern but the content of it was. Hopefully whoever wrote that did tell facts and did not get involved in childish name calling.

But another issue that I have, if you are brave enough to write or circulate a flyer against or for any issue in the HOA, BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO SIGN YOUR NAME.!!
JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Maryland Law allows homeowners to distribute information relevant to their condo/HOA even if soliciting is prohibited. Also, election materials are usually not considered solicitations and are typically allowed.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
You might check to see if your state has laws on such actions by the Board.

As for the mailings, I would take any threat that the Board sent to me in regards to the postal service down to the Post Office. They are quite protective of their business and there is a decent chance that the Board would get a nasty gram from the "goberment" about how they can not regulate the mail.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KirkW1 on 04/29/2009 9:07 PM
You might check to see if your state has laws on such actions by the Board.

As for the mailings, I would take any threat that the Board sent to me in regards to the postal service down to the Post Office. They are quite protective of their business and there is a decent chance that the Board would get a nasty gram from the "goberment" about how they can not regulate the mail.

Excellent suggestion!
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnaA on 04/28/2009 3:53 PM

1. Can a Board stop free speech or freedom of expression in writing over-riding the law of the land?

2. The Board was not specific in stating if soliciation by the US mail could be monitored by the Board...example: some people have businesses and do direct mailings to the whole city, can a Board stop a homeowner from mailing out their business soliciation to the addresses in the assoication and if so, how do they stop all soliciations by businesses?


I would think that they would be in deep trouble if they were to try and restrict someone's business through the mail. From my understanding, that would be interference with interstate commerce and a big no-no! The post office is a good place to start, but the FTC may also have an interest as well.

EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:

A few years back we had a special assessment meeting set. It was in the amount of $15,000 to have some large old oak trees cut down. No information was sent prior to the meeting but some board members went door to door and solicited votes and proxies before the meeting. I refused to sign saying I wanted more info before voting. It turned out these trees were healthy but a couple of board members wanted them cut down on their property. I learned this when I asked that the trees to be cut down should be marked so owners would know what was involved. It was a bit silly, some tiny small trees were marked and could certainly have been done by our landscaping company.

(1) Our docs prohibit cutting down healthy oak trees, and (2) These two owners wanted the association to pay for cutting down their trees so they wouldn't be bothered with leaves dropping.

I printed out a flyer with all the facts and delivered them door to door. I was new to the board and had been left out of the loop. A day later I received a call from another board member saying I should have notified the board before doing this and I replied "I did not do this as a board member but as an owner which is my right". 40 out of 101 members attended and voted no for the special assessment. This type of thing is what give boards a bad name.
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
The last I checked, we are governed by the rule of law. That is where to board should start.

GlenL properly points out that the board must have a defined authority to issue any regulations. Read the CC&Rs. The general rule in interpretation is that the CC&Rs are interpreted against those seeking enforcement, or in favor of the individual owner.

It is always surprising how may people posting on HOA Talk express their opinion (perhaps as gospel) without reading and understanding the applicable law and governing documents.

If the board doesn't have a clear analysis that the action taken is valid under the law and governing documents, it is just another example of abuse by the board.

The law and the governing documents provide written protections for individual owners should must be respected by boards.

RuthF1 (Washington)
Posts: 117
Posted:
This goes hand in hand with something that is happening at our Condo HOA.

Can a President adjourn a meeting and reconvene at his home without board members who he deems are against some issues? I believe this is a stupid question however I have been told that is what is going to happen at tonight’s meeting if the President doesn’t like what the owners and two board members have to say about our finances (we are in trouble).

Our bylaws state that a quorum is 2 directors so he figures he can take the other two board members who he can manage to a closed meeting and vote on issues because he is president.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Ruth,
Check your state statutes. In Virginia, the board would have to reconvene in an open meeting to vote and that meeting needs to be advertised.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Ruth,

I'm sure there's nothing in your bylaws which would prevent this, but this is very wrong!!I would just let the Pres know that there are x number of members on the board and you all expect to be noticed of all board meetings. Just because he can muster a quorum does not mean he has the right to omit some members from a board meeting. If you are friendly with his 2 cronies perhaps you can put the bug in his ear that they'd better watch their step because they could find themselves in disfavor with the Pres and be omitted from a meeting too. Ask them if they think this is really proper. Frankly I think this guy should be removed as Pres.
RuthF1 (Washington)
Posts: 117
Posted:
That is great advice as usual Mary.

I am going to stay pretty quiet at this meeting in the hopes he ends up showing the owners his true colors. He is trying to close the meetings because several owners are mad that he took over the board by lying to some of the BOD - who then reacted by making him President. A couple of the BOD are now doing the "What were we thinking" but I am going to make him stay president until the next annual meeting.

We have too many problems to keep hashing out the issue of who is in charge. Just get the stuff done. I have a plan for next year where things will go much smoother for the "election" of officers. I just have to sit back right now and let him do his thing. The one advantage I have is I know we are going to be raising our dues 12% this next year (we did it this year as well) and again in 2011 & 2012 because our reserves are down. The old BOD aren't telling the owners this and all I have been hearing is "IF they raise our dues again yadda yadda yadda". Well, get ready for them raising your dues .

My stance was to tell everyone what is going on and that instead of asking for a one time special assessment of $5000 the BOD decided to stretch it out. That is understandable and most owners would probably get it. But by not telling the owners up front it looks like they are trying to hide something.

Again, Mary thanks for all your help with this endeavor. I am staying strong... The Pres is trying to make me quit but you all have given me strength to keep going.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Ruth,

Just hang in there.

I agree that raising the dues for several years is much better than a special assessment. And most definitely agree the members should be told of this plan together with an explanation of what the consequences are with both methods:

1) raise dues = a constant flow of excess funds to deposit in the depleted reserves which will eventually result in a more adequately funded reserve.

2) special assessment = a one-time deposit to the reserves which is OK when the percent funded is weak (below 30%). But, assessments should still be raised to allow for monthly deposits to get the percent funded to a much better position.

If the board only wants to do one or the other, raising the assessments would be a much better plan resulting in a long-term benefit.

Typically, a reserve fund should be 70% funded. A reserve study will recommend the yearly contribution rate of increase.
StanM (Florida)
Posts: 34
Posted:
DonnaS,
The reason for not signing or insisting on individual privacy is obvious! Retaliation!!
TonyM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 170
Posted:
That's pretty much the heart of the issue, StanM. The Board can and will do anything it believes it can get away with. Who wants to be a martyr today? Welcome to HOA living.
MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RuthF1 on 05/07/2009 5:41 PM
That is great advice as usual Mary.

I am going to stay pretty quiet at this meeting in the hopes he ends up showing the owners his true colors. He is trying to close the meetings because several owners are mad that he took over the board by lying to some of the BOD - who then reacted by making him President. A couple of the BOD are now doing the "What were we thinking" but I am going to make him stay president until the next annual meeting.

We have too many problems to keep hashing out the issue of who is in charge. Just get the stuff done. I have a plan for next year where things will go much smoother for the "election" of officers. I just have to sit back right now and let him do his thing. The one advantage I have is I know we are going to be raising our dues 12% this next year (we did it this year as well) and again in 2011 & 2012 because our reserves are down. The old BOD aren't telling the owners this and all I have been hearing is "IF they raise our dues again yadda yadda yadda". Well, get ready for them raising your dues .

My stance was to tell everyone what is going on and that instead of asking for a one time special assessment of $5000 the BOD decided to stretch it out. That is understandable and most owners would probably get it. But by not telling the owners up front it looks like they are trying to hide something.

Again, Mary thanks for all your help with this endeavor. I am staying strong... The Pres is trying to make me quit but you all have given me strength to keep going.

I see that this thread is from May, except for a couple of comments about anonymity in open messages to the HOA.

That is being discussed in another current thread on signing notices for HOA bulletin board.

If Mary read this, I'd like to hear what ended up happening with your BoD's meeting.

We had a situation last year where one Director strongly disagreed with the BoD's approach to a dispute with a homeowner (prior to any lawsuit). They declared he was biased and excluded him from BoD discussions and communications, although all official BoD meetings were still open. He eventually resigned. Our BoD now has frequent closed meetings in addition to monthly open meetings, but as far as I know these are for the full BoD. They don't really have an Directors who are biased toward any position not mutual to all seven.

I believe that excluding Directors from BoD communications or meetings is probably a violation of most states' corporation acts and also leaves the other Directors open to legal action for fiduciary breach and personal liability (acting on their own behalf instead of as HOA Directors). Very bad practice; very risky.

It is also my opinion that any homeowners (including any Directors) can personally meet, visit, associate, converse in any way at any time that they please. They can talk about anything that they want. But they cannot make decisions as a BoD and call it a private meeting, and they cannot withhold relevant information from other Directors when they meet as a BoD.

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