HOA Not Following the Bylaws

I have been a resident of our condo for 4 years. Many of us have been upset at the way the management co has been running the board and treating the owners. I have always believed if you don't agree with the way things are you join the BOD. I have never seen election of officers done like they do it. The Agent gets up in front of the group and asks for volunteers. Then they meet briefly to figure out who wants to be what.

Well, that is until I decided I wanted to be President. The Agent of the mgmt co knew I wanted her gone or at least more accountable to the owners. I felt we had a puppet board and she has been running the show. After our annual meeting and I volunteered, we then gathered at the table and when asked I said I wanted to be pres. Two of the older members who love the Agent tried to convince one of the others to be pres but no one would.

I went out the gate with ideas to clean up the place without sending out nasty letters, getting together with the HOA next door to do community events, posted a flyer at the mailbox letting everyone know who the new BOD were as I had been told no one really knew who the BOD were the last 5 or so years.

Because the agent was on vacation for 4 weeks we didn't have a meeting for 2 mos. I had been talking to residents and getting their feedback of what they wanted to see done. When I got to the meeting with my notebook of fun stuff we could start doing, one of the old board members said "I make a motion that I be president, A be VP, B be Secretary and ME (the supposed pres) be member at large." After much discussion on why this was happening and being told this was in the bylaws that we vote on our members at the first meeting... we did and it was 2 ya 2 nay and 1 abstain.

Think that is a done deal? Nope we had a meeting a week later this time with the agent... again the same motion was made and this time because the agent really plead her case on how much she has done (even after she did a walk through and said our place looked awful) we have $32k in arrears with little action. This time it was 3 ya 2 nay. My concern is they only use the bylaws when they want to and then ignore them for the important stuff. I believe they really don't want to manage and feel more comfortable if the mgmt co did everything. Challenge with that is they aren’t doing it and our property is starting to look like a slum. .

So I guess my question is... Was it legal for a board member to nominate himself?

Thanks for the encouragement Susan. The challenge is the Agent has so scared the ones who dare to serve on the board that everytime she threatens to quit they go into panic mode. I actually had called several property managment companies to have some options in case she did it at the first meeting (which I had been told she was going to do)

I love the idea of a Board workshop. I believe I will see if I can get someone to come out and do that.

In the interium I am going to bide my time and work on the owners who have no clue what is going on. My first trip out today is going to be taking pictures of how bad our property has gotten and let the owners know that there is going to be a huge expense to fix it because it wasn't kept up.

Reading some of the forums here I am also going to ask for a copy of the PM contract as I believe she is making the required site visits that she is supposed to. I will include the request for all contracts including the landscaping as at the meeting I asked if we could get bids on bringing bark in for the beds. The PM got a shocked look on her face and said no it is cheaper to use the landscaper we have.

Parts of me asks why I even want to bother... the answer always is "because this is just wrong"

Thanks Barb you are so right. Before this I hadn't even picked up my bylaws and Rules/Regs. I have read them 3 times now and that is how I know what the did last night was probably illegal.

Can a board member nominate themselves as the president? Especially if it was assumed the board had already been decided to the point the PE sent out our duties and responsibilities.

I am definately going to keep educating not only myself but the board members and owners. This is just not right. I have never seen a PE manage a board as if they were the President.

I left out at one point the PE said "let's not have any positions... let's make everyone the president" wow.

That made my day. Thanks Barbara. I am going to bid my time... it isn't that long until the next annual meeting

Thanks Susan, I am all for letting the experts do their job without micro managing. However our property looks like a slum at the moment. The PE even said when she did the walk through that the place looked awful... It didn't get that way overnight. Many complaints have been ignored regarding the condition of the property.

At this point I don't the the PE would allow a workshop so I am going to try and interject occasionaly with some educational materials until I can get the board to see they have a responsibility to uphold.

Sometimes "drafts" of unapproved minutes are handed out in the pre-meeting packet to board members or a few days before the meeting.

Until they are approved, they are not official anyway.

They just have to be prepared for approval at the next meeting. Your bylaws would not cover this administrative subject.

Mary that is how it is supposed to go, however they don't run the meetings according to the bylaws so there is not treasures report or reading of the minutes etc.

I am going to slowly but surely get them on that path.

BTW have you ever heard of sending the meeting minutes to the PM to approve? I am pretty sure they don't need to be involved in this.

r

If I have learned nothing else from this forum is that I am not alone. Thanks everyone you saved my sanity.

Is anyone a member of the CAI Community Association Institute?

r

Ruth,

It appears your board needs some education. A treasurer's report is a MUST. The board is responsible for all owners as to how their moneys are being spent. And, NO, the PM has nothing to say about approving the minutes. That is a board's responsibility. Once again, the PM is employed by the association and answerable to the board and must act at their discretion unless it is something illegal.

I am going to request at our next meeting that we have a Treasures report monthly. The PM is spending money like it is water. I need the owners to see that we should be renegotiating contracts now so we can save some money.

I sent an email stating that we need to approve the meeting minutes at each meeting. We haven't had minutes out for the last 5 meetings. I am going to make sure we catch up and then have them right after the meeting is done.

Like I said, with all the repair we are having to do because of neglect on the PMs part, heaven forbid we have to do a special assessment with the BOD that is in place now. The president doesn't realize that the blame is going to fall on his shoulders.

Has your association formally adopted Roberts Rules? If not, then it doesn't apply.

However, with 5 voting members and only 2 yays, then the motion does not pass. Whatever was there before does not change. Even without Roberts Rules most people would still agree a majority has to be voted in favor of the motion to make any change.

IMHO I would have had 4 individual motions. Then BOD could vote on each one rather than having to take or leave the entire slate. I might like 2 position but not the others so it would leave me in a quandary as to how to vote.

I have fought with this issue (not following the bylaws) or similar variants for several years. I try now to ask myself if it really is making the HOA better or just proving I am right. This is one of the most difficult tasks that any board member has is to know when to push and when to ignore.

I would bet that if you let some things go and try to get another board member to see your logic of convictions, then you will be better off in the long run. When all is said and done, you still only have 20% of the vote.

I actually asked the question for future motions. Our bylaws do state that we follow Robert Rules so I need to be clear for the future if we run into this again. I want to educate the BODs on how it should have been handled.

I have a feeling we will not have this happen again. There is such an uproar with the owners over it I believe the new BODs see the error of their ways. Now we need to get down to business and find out where we are financially which is the real crux of the matter at hand.

I am leaving the vote as it is and not contesting the new line up... because as several have said here on this forum - I have just as much say as member at large as president. I get a lot done as a jr officer.... President just makes it easier to get people moving in the right direction if you are an educated President and know where you are going.

I definately am not taking any one to court as it isn't worth it. I am probably the least stressed about the entire situation. The new president said to me the other day... I feel like a dog that was chasing a car and caught it... now what do I do with it?

Things work out for a reason. I feel the reason here was I went into it without doing my homework and knowing where I stood. Now I have a better idea so this time next year I will be confident in addressing the owners.

That was sweet Mary. I keep repeating myself, but I am sooooo glad I found this forum. You don't know how much energy you all saved me just by keeping me focused.

Thanks again all... and I know I will have many more questions.
r

Susan, I think you hit the 'nail on the head' about our HOA and the Management Co. None know much about what should be done, the laws to follow. What is a 'board workshop' and how does one go about finding someone to run one? I have not heard of this before. But then, I jumped in just about 6 monhts ago and have read until my eyes are crossed. Sounds like what we need. Thank you.

I would be very careful about recording, visual or audio. If the board is doing it, then they need a retention policy of just how long to keep the tape. Normally, you would want to erase it as soon as the minutes were approved. Once the minutes are approved, erase the tape. The minutes are the official record of what was done, not what was said. What was said is unimportant after the fact. Remember, anything like a tape laying around is foder for discovery if a law suit arises.

I would disagree on the need to take minutes. Minutes are to record actions taken by a board, not what is talked about. If minutes are taken, that implies actions, that implies decisions which imply a real board meeting.

Wow.

Ruth. That sounds like a train ride to disaster.

What is their justification for meeting without the other members?!

I agree Michael. And not professional in any way shape or form.

The reasons are difficult to determine other than when I came on the board in Feb. 2009 I wanted to find out why out community looked so bad and why our dues went up 12% without notice. Let's not talk about the snow we had this winter and no snow removal.

We are paying $1000 a month for landscaping and it looks like it hasn't been touched for years. Dead plants etc. I just found out that we will be increasing the dues 12% for each of the next 3 years. It isn't that the dues is going up it is more that we are not informing the Owners in a timely manner. Costs go up. I just want to be prepared.

The PM doesn't want the board to tell the owners anything about the finances because it would cause her more work (her exact words to us).

I was vocal for the first two months about needing to look at all of our contracts (landscaping hasn't been renegotiated since Dec. 2003) and make sure we are getting what we pay for or save money. The old guard wanted to leave it to the PM. One of the old BODs decided to nominate himself as president (long story) and succeeded to convince two of the other members that my primary goal was to get rid of the PM. Of course they didn't take into account I only have 1/20th of a vote and couldn't do it without them agreeing.

So because this has splintered the board 3 of the BODs have been meeting to figure out what they can do to keep the PM as now the owners are asking questions (which in my opinion they should have been doing a long time ago ). This practice will now stop because I found out about it and informed them they need to take meeting minutes if they are going to exclude any other BODs.

Fortunately I have been able to talk to two of the BODs individually and tell them my side of the story (of course they were shocked that they were misinformed) regarding the PM. They are now starting to look at things a little differently but at least they are looking. This is going to take at least to the next year to sort out but my goal now is to make sure the new president is following our bylaws and Rules/Regs to the T.

r

We are trying to do that. The secretary currently is sending them to the PM to be approved. arrrgggg... I hope to get that changed soon.

r

Ruth, I am so suprised that the owners have not gotten after the Board for lack of financial information.

Are you a small community? I had a terrbile time in our HOA with our Board. So, over a period of time I did provide them with state statues and some excellent articles on proper Board duties. They got nrevous when they realized they could be personally liable. I got a few other owners to ask the same questions too.

Your PM sounds awful and that is at the crux of your issues. Sounds like you are doing a great job moving everyone in the right direction. Good luck!

We have 104 units. I am starting to request documents from the PM and though I am getting them I just found out that the other BODs have started meeting without me. I have requested that they have meeting minutes from those meetings as actions are being taken.

Starting at the next meeting the board is going to read and approve the meeting minutes. They will need to do that for the last three meetings as there were no minutes posted after the meetings.

I am slowly but surely educating the owners that they need to take charge of this as the board is making decisions that will affect their bottom line.

Cross your fingers for our next meeting. I am hoping it is a positive one.