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DianaH3 (Texas)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I am President of a Homeowner's Association that covers 4600 acres of which 3200 is Ranch Land and the rest is Residential. Some members want speed limit signs installed in the Ranch areas of 45-50 miles per hour and decreasing to 25 mph in the residential sections. We have no enforcement powers for those speed limits and the roads are private. No one, including our county sheriff patrols our roads.

What is our liability if we install the signs, someone exceeds the posted speed limit and causes a wreck?

What is our liability if we don't install the signs and someone drives too fast and causes a wreck?

We have 13 miles of roads in our sub-division and need to know the pros & cons of installing speed limit signs.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
If this is private land, you can post whatever signs you want, but enforcement is a whole 'nuther issue.

Have you ASKED the local authorities to patrol your roads? Our local police do come into our subdivision and WILL write tickets, etc. only after we officailly asked them to. They will not enforce speed limits under 25, however, due to the difficulty in monitoring anything less than that.

Do you have signs up that tell travellers that they are entering private property, travel at your own risk, etc? Just the size of your "common" area would be difficult to monitor. You need to have some help, either with local authorities or a private security company.

DianaH3 (Texas)
Posts: 10
Posted:
We do have a sign at the entrance but it only says Private Property, Members and Guests only.

We have not officially asked our local authorities for help with speed limits. In fact it was only recently that this issue came about. We are located 50 miles from the nearest town and sit on a beautiful lake. We have never been concerned with the speed limits because it is a curvy, hilly area - except for 4 miles of entrance road. But the "city folks" have moved in and for some reason want the trappings of a city with the serenity of the country.

They are concerned that our HOA will be liable for accidents if we have no speed limit signs posted - even though we can't enforce them. The "old-timers" are concerned that if speed limit signs are installed we better be able to enforce it or there will be some kind of repercussion.

So which is better - install or not???
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Diana, on private roads the HOA may post signs. If there is an accident with property or people injured it could be more difficult for the violator to be found innocent. IMO posting signs does not necessarily require enforcement.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Roger,
Sort of like "Tresspassers Will Be Shot" At least it makes them think before they make entry. Hopefully the owner really doesn't have a gun.
DianaH3 (Texas)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Hey, we live in Texas! At least 75% of the homeonwers own a gun - if not more. There are a lot of critters out here.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Diana,

As others have said, they're your private roads you can do as you please. But since the community seems to be split on this and the board is unsure, why not run it by a good HOA attorney? I don't like to promote unnecessary legal fees but sometimes it's worth the cost. Even though you're a distance from the nearest town, local law enforcement might not be a possibility but it's worth checking out. It's best to dot all the i's and cross all the t's!!!
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Do it the Missouri way: ask, nicely, for the people who believe the signs will limit liability to provide relevant court cases with that included as the proof.

I bet you get no takers.

Thus, spare yourself the cost of the signs, installation, and maintenance (they will be used for target practice), and forget the signs. they add nor detract nothing from your overall liability (they neither help nor hinder any potential claims for idiocy).
RichardS7 (Texas)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DianaH3 on 04/06/2009 1:45 PM
Hey, we live in Texas! At least 75% of the homeonwers own a gun - if not more. There are a lot of critters out here.

I am the president of a HOA with a gated, no outlet rural Texas subdivision. As DianaH3 mentioned, most of our residents have guns also. But the majority of speeding, failure to slow for pedestrians, etc problems are by residents. The same residents whose children we are trying to protect. go figure. three months ago I purchased 6 more speed limit signs (there were originaly two along our 2.5 miles of road, added warning signs for a sharp curve where at least three motorists have hit a tree, I added 4 bright yellow reduce speed for pedestrians, horses, and golf carts (we don't have a golf course but the kids like to drive them on the roads). I dug the holes, installed the signs and still half the residents ignore them. I doubt that our local law enforcement is interested in adding more roads to cover when they are already overstretched. So what is a HOA board to do?
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Richard, if your Declaration of CC&Rs allows you to fine then you can enforce speed by passing a Rule on speeding and the amount of the fine. The fine can be set high enough to get speeders' attention and it can esculate with each offense. Make sure to give all owners a copy and sufficient time before going into effect.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I find the endless arguments about liability to be quite interesting. And if you listen, you just can't win. In your case one side says without signs your liability increases. The other side says that signs without enforcement increases liability.

I would handle this without listening to such drivel. The operant questions are:
1) Do people drive too fast?
2) Will a sign reduce their speed?

If the answer to both questions is yes, then put the signs up. As for liability, this is why you pay for insurance.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
As usual Kirk exhibits very uncommon common sense. There is little one can add to his thinking.

The issue here is not the signs, but enforcement. Under common law, even if you post the signs, if you do not enforce the rules, you end up losing the ability to do so. Your liability may be greater if you post signs without enforcement, than if you do not post signs.

Speed limit signs, like the Ten Commandments are mere suggestions these days.

If only residents are the primary users of roads, then periodic letters and persistent reminders via newsletters, etc. may be a far superior way to seek compliance.

Before installing signs, figger out how you are going to consistently enforce the limits. How are you going to determine (show with a preponderance of evidence) that somebody is dong 27 (or 32 or 35) in a 25 mile per hour zone? (Keep in mind that large vehicles such as trucks and school buses tend to appear to go faster than they actually do.)
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
George writes:

>>>(Keep in mind that large vehicles such as trucks and school buses tend to appear to go faster than they actually do.)<<<

This has not been my experience. Here in bucolic Bucks County, school buses, especially during morning rush, appear to have three speeds - slow, slower, and stopped. The third is especially popular on uphill grades on 2 lane roads. I once listened to the entire (so-called) Beatles' White Album whilst waiting for that teeny stop sign to fold back in. (Okay, a bit of hyperbole there. Only three sides).
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
There is a gold standard for finding the speed of a vehicle and it isn't all that expensive anymore. Use a radar gun. While not at the level of a Police department a hand held unit can be purchased for under $100. Then again, the people fighting it will spend much more in the process.

It really wouldn't be that tough to enforce the speed rules if you want to. And you might get much better results with the local busy body simply recording information on speeders.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I think I recall a child using a toy radar gun, from Mattel, Hot Wheels, I believe, against automobiles in his neighborhood.

He made the national news.



Ky. boy checks drivers' speed with toy radar gun

11-year-old got tired of shouting at cars to slow down on his street

Complete story here

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