Cracked concrete patio

Started by CharlesO • 17 replies • 2145 views

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CharlesO (Maryland)
Posts: 17

Posted:

I am on the Board of Directors for a new development with 48 townhomes. The concrete patios on four of the homes are cracked all the way across the width and all the way through the thickness. These homes are still within the one year warranty period. One owner, after a year of arguing with the builder, got her new slab. When they broke up the old one, there was no wire mesh in it. (I know that the blueprints call for wire mesh in the patios). The builder still refuses to replace the other slabs citing the National Association of Home Builders Residential Construction Performance Guidelines which state as long as the crack is not open more than 3/16" or not displaced 3/16", just caulk. The problem is that these guidelines only address interior concrete basement floors. I maintain that exterior patios are subject to the elements, i.e.freezing, and thawing, etc. and are only going to get worse with time. I have visited the local Office of Permits and Inspections which I couldn't find a competant person anywhere. I contacted the NAHB who really seem to be a builder advocate. I emailed a local concrete contractor who didn't bother to answer yet. Any advice?? Thanks

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

ATTORNEY

The lawsuit would be based on deliberate breach of contract, ie: not building as per the contract drawings.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CharlesO on 04/04/2009 8:41 AM
I am on the Board of Directors for a new development with 48 townhomes. The concrete patios on four of the homes are cracked all the way across the width and all the way through the thickness. These homes are still within the one year warranty period. One owner, after a year of arguing with the builder, got her new slab. When they broke up the old one, there was no wire mesh in it. (I know that the blueprints call for wire mesh in the patios). The builder still refuses to replace the other slabs citing the National Association of Home Builders Residential Construction Performance Guidelines which state as long as the crack is not open more than 3/16" or not displaced 3/16", just caulk. The problem is that these guidelines only address interior concrete basement floors. I maintain that exterior patios are subject to the elements, i.e.freezing, and thawing, etc. and are only going to get worse with time. I have visited the local Office of Permits and Inspections which I couldn't find a competant person anywhere. I contacted the NAHB who really seem to be a builder advocate. I emailed a local concrete contractor who didn't bother to answer yet. Any advice?? Thanks

Charles,

If I were the h/o I would be going to the Registrar of Contractors. But, I must ask, why are you, as a board member, involved in this issue -- is the patio a common element?

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Charles,
Mary asks an important question that must be addressed.
I would also look at your turn over documents and see if the developer has some written obligation. Check you area for similar situations, run a Google check on the developer. Search your developers name or any other party, such as contractors at the local courthouse for patterns or other court cases. Get a Board delagation of a couple people and have a sit down with the developers and put his feet to the fire. He may ignore you, so keep good records. I suppose if the Board shows good faith they can let themselves be involved up to a point, but if this slab (property) is listed on individual deeds, you can see the direction that has to be taken...........and not by the board.

CharlesO (Maryland)
Posts: 17

Posted:

The reason I have put myself in the middle of this situation is I am one of those with a cracked patio. I figured if I can help myself, morally I should help everyone else with a similar problem. Am I out of line?

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

NO Charles,

You are not out of line. There is a common denominator here and that is H.Os with cracked patios that should be under warranty. I would think that several patios going after the same concrete guy or Developer, would have much more clout. I would do the same thing and as a matter of fact, a large group of us did so when we say a similar problem and we took on a giant builder in Lennar.

It sounds like the slab was not prepped correctly but getting them fixed will be a challenge because of what it is. In your climate, cracks are so common on smaller slab areas. In Florida as an example, tile floors are not warranteed for more that 60 days against cracking with most installations.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Charles,

No, you are not. I see nothing wrong with you getting involved in having this issue resolved since you are directly affected. However, IMO, this should not be a board action unless the patios are common elements.

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

I agree with Mary. This doesn't really sound like it's an HOA issue unless the slabs are community property. But as an affected homeowner, you should be able to get together with the other homeowners to get more traction with the developer.

BTW: just because there wasn't any rebar in the slab that has been redone doesn't necessarily mean that the concrete was done wrong. I had a concrete driveway put in several years ago and the contractor did not put in any rebar or mesh. When I asked about it, he told me (and I later confirmed through other sources) that a lot of the concrete used for this sort of application has fiberglass fibers mixed in. When the concrete hardens, the fibers act as the reinforcement, and because it is mixed throughout the concrete, it actually holds up better than a steel mesh would. When I moved out of that house 5 years later (after several freeze-thaw cycles), there where no problems.

However,it doesn't sound like that is what was done in this case (otherwise there wouldn't have been any cracks). Just be aware of it if the contractor tries to claim that he used this technique.

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

I would guess that there is a building code that clearly states what is required for construction. Don't know if it is National or State for you but the whole point in getting a building permit and the inspection process is to avoid these types of deficiencies (no mesh) from occurring HOWEVER even the best inspector can't pick up everything or be there continuously to detect an unscrupulous trade from taking short cuts to try and save money.

Whoever issues your permits should be the first place to start asking...although it sounds like you already did so I'd say go back and see if you can talk to one of the Town/city inspectors.

Wire mesh of a certain guage is something I always thought was required. HOWEVER the cracking would have occurred with or without the wire in my experience. To address the cracking in driveways (less commonly in basement floors) it is pretty standard to make saw cuts to essentially control the cracking rather than have it occur uncontrolled in all directions.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

DJ,

In AZ the proper authority to contact is the Registrar of Contractors as they regulate contractors. They will investigate and determine if the contractor is liable or not. No contractor wants to mess with the Registrar of contractors!!

OliviaS (South Carolina)
Posts: 6

Posted:

I am on a HOA board with a similar problem. A few of the homes are now having problems with their floors cracking (we are slab built). The houses are several years old and it seems that the problem may have been caused by poor run-off. The homes are owned by Portrait Homes who are currently going bankrupt in SC. The board is ready to hire a lawyer to sue, but I feel that the homeowners only should be suing because it is their personel property. The rest of the board says it is a HOA matter because the problem was with the water drainage. I new to the HOA and would appreciate any insights.

thanks,

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Olivia,

Even if the cracking is caused by poor drainage, IMO, it's still not a matter for the HOA to be involved in. Cracks in slabs are a common occurence and not something that the builder could necessarily have prevented. Here in AZ we have caliche in the soil which causes problems. Before suing the builder, IMO you should get an expert opinion on the cause of the cracks and whether or not they could have been prevented. But, the HOA should not be involved in this. Can you tell us their reasoning for thinking it's a matter for the HOA to resolve?

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Olivia,
Tels us something about your physical layout of the property, what is the HOA charged with in the documents? Who manages the HOA. Has transition taken place and when, was there any note of problems before or during this time. What percentage of homes effected. Has any homeowner retained a lawyer. Are you sure about all of this. Has it been discussed at a Townhall or special meeting with the owners for this special purpose.
We need more background.

OliviaS (South Carolina)
Posts: 6

Posted:

thanks for your replys.

In our documents it looks like the HOA is responsible for the shell of the buildings (exterior walls, roofs) it is not real clear who is responsible for the slab. We had a lawyer come talk to us and one of the first things he said to us was that any lawsuit we bring could be dismissed because it concerns personal property not common area. We need to determine who should bring the suit after a professional comes look at damaged buildings to determine the extent of the problems(and cause)with mold as well as cracked slabs. The problems were not reported to the builders before they turned the development over. There are 255 homes in our development, we know of several homes that have cracked slabs and about 4 with mold. Unfortunalty there are many rental units here with quite a few college students in them, not real sure that they are that concerned with the condition of their townhouse. The previous board did pay for hardwood floors to be replaced in one home due to mold. One owner has a pending lawsuit against the builder

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Olivia,
You spoke of lawyer coming to talk to you or us. Now lets get clear on this, are you talking about the Board or the Owners. It is not likely in an HOA the Board is going to be responsible for any wall of residents, etc. You really need to find out, as I suggested, what your documents say, find out who is managing you HOA, 255 units is a sizeable project to self manage. What is common property and what is private property, not is looks like from you documents. If a lawyer has talk to you what was his response? Just curious but am I making sense to you or is what I say just confusing you more?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Olivia,

I don't know about the laws of your state, but here in AZ regardless of whether the declarant is still in control or not he has an obligation for a certain number of years to make good on any faulty work. The agency that oversee developers in this regard is the Registrar of Contractors. How old is your s/d?

Now, I'm wondering why the HOA replaced the wood floors because of mold. Seems to me the contractor should have been resp.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

A couple things: If a loss involves personal property I don't see a problem with the HOA providing support to the organization of owners to deal with the problem. But it should be limited to that role.

Now if the HOA is responsible for the shell, I would think that includes the slab as well since it absolutely relies on the integrity of the slab. If the slabs are cracked and not repaired, then the walls will develop cracks. The slab is an integral portion of the structure of the building.

As for being told that rebar (or other reinforcement) isn't needed, I would not accept it without serious research. I know that in this area building code requires reinforcement in a driveway. It is also inspected before the pour takes place.

EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148

Posted:

Olivia,

If the builder is going bankrupt this seems to be a moot question. You can't get blood out of a turnip.

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