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GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Is there anything that can be done to stop a board from removing one board member that has been questioning the way the association is run?
Can a petition signed by home owners?
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Check your docs, but more than likely the Board cannot remove a Board member from the Board. They can probably remove an Officer (Pres, Vice Pres, Secretary, or Treasurer) from their office position, but they can't remove them completely from the Board. Usually only the HOA members can do that through the recall process. But again, you will need to check to see what your documents actually say.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Dwight,
Thank you for responding.
I have read that they can remove an officer. I will read again.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GraceH on 04/03/2009 5:35 PM
Dwight,
Thank you for responding.
I have read that they can remove an officer. I will read again.

Grace, again, please bear in mind that it's not really "removing" an officer from the board. In effect, they would only be stripping the officer of his/her officer duties and title.

As was stated previously, it's most likely your documents do not allow for the BOARD to REMOVE a board member as a director. It's more likely that your documents specify that only the MEMBERSHIP (ALL owner/members) can remove a board member/director, since it was the entire MEMBERSHIP that voted that person into the board position to begin with.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Opps. Hit submit too soon.

One caveat: our documents specify that a board member can be removed by the board if the director has missed more than 3 meetings in the 12-month period. But that is the ONLY reason a board can remove one of its directors/members according to our documents.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Michele and Dwight,
Thank you again for responding.
In re reading the bylaws, I see that you guys are right again. Thank you so much !
Now, if the board members remove her from office, can the home owners reverse that? I do not see any reference to that.
See last year, we went with out a Secretary/Treasurer and the board was not even aware of it. Or atleast they tried to say that it was one board member however she disputed that, they tried to tell her that she was nominated at a meeting that she did not attend. Come to find out,noone was. The pm was aware though.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Actually there is one other caveat: if the member was appointed to the Board by the other directors, then they can remove him. Essentially the body that put the member into the position has the ability to remove him from that position.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Now that you mention that, the year she was appointed, we did not have anyone else run and the Condo did not have a quorum to vote so the board appointed her. Under those circumstances can the home owners do anything to stop it? We really need her on the board.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Homeowners should be able to request a special meeting for the purpose of electing a replacement Board member. Again, you will need to check your docs, but ours specify that on written request of 10% of all HOA members the Board is to call a special meeting of the members.

And if you have enough homeowners who are upset with the current Board, you can replace any or all of them.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Dwight,
Thank you again for your help. I have been researching the special meeting for awhile and had started a petition before the cold weather had set in. Now that the weather has broken, it is time to proceed.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
You will have a vacancy - not an empty electable position, so that vacancy cannot be filled by election.

The board has the only right to fill a vacancy. Members do not.

You will have to wait until the next election.

After this, don't leave vacancies for the board to fill!

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Susan - I don't agree. Again Grace will need to check her documents for the specifics, but mine state that the Board MAY fill a vacancy. That doesn't necessarily preclude the members from requesting a meeting to elect the member themselves.

The members can also create a vacancy by removing Board members. If the membership has that kind of interest, it would be a foolish Board that refused to listen.
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
Our Bylaws do state that members can remove.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I understood the ORIGINAL question to be that an APPOINTMENT by the board was being removed by the Board and she wanted to know if general members can call for an election to fill this vacancy. I said that her bylaws say that the Board fills vacancies to complete terms, not the general members.

Besides, the Board will probably fill the vacancy before the members can arrange an election.

How much longer until the next full election?
GraceH (Virginia)
Posts: 224
Posted:
The next election is not until November.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Susan - you're right. The original question was concerning the removal of an director who as appointed by the Board. I think we agree that because this person was put into the director position by the Board, she can be removed by the Board.

Where I think we have a slight disagreement now is in the question of how that vacancy will be filled. I agree - the Board can fill the position by another appointment. As I pointed out though, my docs state that the Board MAY make such an appointment, not that they MUST. The general membership can also call for a special election to fill the vacancy. The current Board might try to ignore such a request, but it would be a rather foolish thing for them to do. The general membership can always create another vacancy by removing the Board members who refuse to listen.

One other question for Grace that is probably relevant here - how long is a Board member term and when does the term of this particular person expire?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Grace,

Dwight "may" be correct in saying an appointed board member may be removed from the board by the board members w/o a vote of the assn members. It would all depend upon what your bylaws and state law say. You need to not only check out the HOA state laws by also the non-profit corp laws. In AZ the law that Dwight refers to in our nonprofit corp laws. If there is no state law covering this situation and your bylaws do not address it then the board can pretty much do as they say and the members have no say in the matter. First rule of thumb, check your bylaws and all the state laws that HOAs must abide by. Generally speaking, as Dwight also stated, a director can be removed by whomever put him/her in office. Also be careful not to confuse directors with officers. If your bylaws say the board may remove an officer that doesn't mean remove the officer from the board, but rather just remove the officer from his/her officer position.
VirginiaB5 (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Our Bylaws and CC&Rs are very old. And I read conflicting statements about removing board members.
So here is my legal question to you:

Our bylaws and CC&Rs have conflicting statements,

Our By-Laws have an article under the category OFFICERS AND THEIR DUTIES stating: "RESIGNATION AND REMOVAL - Any officer may be removed from office by the Board with or without cause"

Under our CC&Rs state under the article ASSOCIATION, ADMINISTRATION, MEMBERSHIP AND VOTING RIGHTS. It says:

"Unless the entire board is removed from office by the vote of the Association members, no individual Board member shall be removed prior to the expiration of his or her term of office if the votes cast against removal would be sufficient to elect he board member if voted cumulatively at an election at which at he same board total number of votes were cast and the entire number of board member authorized at the time of the most recent election of the board member were than being elected.

Now these are from 1981 so I don't know if they are still legal, especially the first one. Our board is not in compliance with many of these articles as it is. So I have a feeling this board member is trying to convince the other member to kick me off the board because I have filed a complaint against him.

Hope you can help me here.
Virginia

Virginia L. Braun

Virginia L Braun
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
What a bunch of legalese junk!! Re-do your CCR!

Basically, (how I read it) it says the board member CAN be removed if the votes to do that exceed the number of votes that member got at the last election.

Since this is an APPOINTED position, the board can vote to UN-appoint. Simply recind the motion to appoint.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
This is an old conversation and things may have changed since 2009, so start a new conversation on this question.

By the way, we aren't attorneys and answers to legal questions vary from state to state (not to mention everyone's documents are a little different), so you really need to talk to a private attorney.

That said, there doesn't appear to be a major conflict. In many HOAs the homeowners elect the board members, who then appoint officers among themselves. Thus, an officer could be removed from that spot upon a vote by the rest of the board members - that's what the first part of your bylaws are saying.

As for the CCRs, it seems like a clumsy way of saying an individual board member can't be removed if the majority of homeowners vote against it and that number would be enough to put him/her back on the board anyway. This wouldn't count if the homeowners voted to remove EVERYONE. Otherwise, it would appear the individual board member has to lose the next election, decide not to run again or resign.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Welcome to the forum, Virginia.

Please learn the difference between officers and directors. Officers, as in your bylaws are appointed by the Board. Directors are elected by the membership (owners) and must be removed by them UNLESS the board appointed the director to fill a vacancy.

I agree it's by far better to start a new thread.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
9 year old thread
VirginiaB5 (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thank you..Yes this is important to distinguish. I was voted by the homeowners (Ca)as President 4.5 years ago and I oppointed two new board members. This was a two year term with 3 board members for a 101 SFR homes HOA. I won another two year term which will end on Dec 2018.
One of the other two members is an attorney (civil law) and is undermining my role and bullying me so the other weak board member who tries to stay neutral typcially votes his way.
The Mngt company bought our contract from our previous company and is playing favorites with this atty.
I recently went on record of this intimidation and bullying and want it stopped. Seriously, this board member went so far to tell me he did not have to be nice or courteous to me when I stated we all need to treat each other with respect and be kind.

With my voice on record, I believe he is trying to get me kicked off the board between the mgmt company and the other weak board member. I have called other board presidents to get their feedback, and have been told, they are running a rouge board.

The last board voting for the two other board members was this year, and no one ran against them. So the mgnt co. did not even open the ballets. She is running the show with this attorney.
Can I recall this recent vote from this one board member. And if so, what do I need to do.
Need all the help I can get.
Thank you,

Virginia L Braun
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Again, Virginia, please start a new thread.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Being you are from California, I would ask a couple of questions about your election.

1. Who was the inspector of elections and do you have a separate set of election rules specifically for your community. If the answer is no, the management company cannot be involved in the election process.

2. Do you have a required percentage for quorum and if so, was that number reached. If not, does your Bylaws allowed the people present at the meeting to vote to adjourn to a new meeting with a reduced quorum.

3. Does your election allow for nominations from the floor or write in candidates.

4. The president (presumably you) presides over annual meetings, special meeting and board meetings, unless YOU choose to delegate that role to someone else.

The election would be nullified, if quorum were indeed met, or the members were never given the opportunity to adjourn with a reduced number, if nomination from the floor were not allowed or write in candidates not allowed (if the association had no election rules). Ballots, whether opened or not must be held by the inspector of election for a one year, which is the same time limit for a challenge. Challenges to the elections can be done in Small Claims Court.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Virginia,

Welcome to the forum.

It would be best to start a new thread.

That said, from what you posted, there is no conflict.

Directors (elected or appointed) are the members of the Board of Directors.
Officers (Pres, VP, Treasurer, Secretary, etc.) are not members of the Board.

Directors make the decisions for the Association by majority vote.
Officers implement those decisions.

Directors serve at the pleasure of the membership
Officers serve at the pleasure of the Board.

Even if the same individual is both a Director and an Officer (and this is typical), they are two different positions (jobs) with different authority and different responsibilities.

Therefore, if one individual was serving as the President and was elected to serve as a Director, the Board can remove the individual from the Office of the President. However, that individual would still be a Director. They would still be a member of the Board and still have a vote on issues the Board votes on.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Side note: Virginia, please read the posting rules for this site.
VirginiaB5 (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Answers:
1. There was no inspector of elections (to which I addressed was necessary) and was shot down by the management company. Our previous mngt board had one. As I mentioned earlier, this mgnt co is running a rouge board with the help of the one board member who happens to be an a civil rights attorney.

2. Required percentage is 50% which was not met, so we adjorned to a later meeting. Our bylaws state that this next meeting to address the vote should be no less than 5 days and no more than 30 from the original meeting date. This was not adheared to.

3. There is no mention of allowing nominations from the floor or write-in. I presume there must be mention of that for it to be allowed?

4 As the president, I do reside over all the meetings. Although the attorney (as mentioned and the mgnt board owner)try to always take over the meetings and the other weak board member attempt to run gunshot over me. And I am a strong person with an MBA. Former (retired)business exective as well.

Virginia L Braun
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
I have to assume you have no separate set of election rules which is required by California Civil Code. IMO, the election is invalid.

Having that many homes makes the community significant. What I would do is invalidate the election, call for a new one and get one or two candidates (a slate) that YOU can work with. If you can adjourn to a meeting with a 25% quorum, make that your goal. Do some campaign, this is politics and sometimes you have to fight for what you and others believe. Most important, get community support behind you. Make sure anything you do is transparent and above board.

Best of luck!
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Virginia

It might well be within your power to call in the associations attorney claiming that the BOD is not getting not proper legal information from the MC and the BOD Member who is an attorney. Let the fur fly.
VirginiaB5 (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
YOu know it's pretty sad, but our BOD (previous to me coming aboard) was run by a bookkeeping service who ultimelty dropped us. The previous board then hired this property mgnt co who then held the first elections EVER as I understood it. NOthing was done in accordance with Civil Code. Not even a required Reserve Study.

As far as I know.....We do not have a legal advisor.

I've been a homeowner for over 18 years and did not get involved as I was raising a family and full time work.
Now I am simi retired as became a real estate broker working with HOA's in Coastal southern CA. So I am taken an interest in these things.
We are a $1M + community...can you believe it?
So I am the first elected board member in at least a couple of decades. New to this, I am learning on the fly. but it's been quite the ride.
I do have friends in the community.

Virginia L Braun
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VirginiaB5 on 06/15/2018 1:03 PM
YOu know it's pretty sad, but our BOD (previous to me coming aboard) was run by a bookkeeping service who ultimelty dropped us.

What's also sad is you responding to a 9 year-old thread and refusing to start a new one.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 06/15/2018 1:09 PM
Posted By VirginiaB5 on 06/15/2018 1:03 PM
YOu know it's pretty sad, but our BOD (previous to me coming aboard) was run by a bookkeeping service who ultimelty dropped us.

What's also sad is you responding to a 9 year-old thread and refusing to start a new one.

WOW, that's really hitting below the belt.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleD on 04/03/2009 5:44 PM
Posted By GraceH on 04/03/2009 5:35 PM
Dwight,
Thank you for responding.
I have read that they can remove an officer. I will read again.


Grace, again, please bear in mind that it's not really "removing" an officer from the board. In effect, they would only be stripping the officer of his/her officer duties and title.

As was stated previously, it's most likely your documents do not allow for the BOARD to REMOVE a board member as a director. It's more likely that your documents specify that only the MEMBERSHIP (ALL owner/members) can remove a board member/director, since it was the entire MEMBERSHIP that voted that person into the board position to begin with.

In ours we have 5 board members and with a vote of 3, one can be removed. Owner approval not needed. Owners can also, with 51%, remove a board member or an entire board. Not that that is easy, even having the 51%, but it's technically possible.

It depends entirely on the individual docs and whether there is a state law that speaks to that.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Jennifer

In ours we have 5 board members and with a vote of 3, one can be removed. Owner approval not needed. Owners can also, with 51%, remove a board member or an entire board. Not that that is easy, even having the 51%, but it's technically possible.

It depends entirely on the individual docs and whether there is a state law that speaks to that.


Typically removing a BOD Member with 3 of the 5 votes applies to a BOD Member appointed by the BOD. I personally have never seen it applied to any BOD Member, especially one elected by fellow owners. There is always a first, but I suggest you read closer.

Owners removing a BOD Member with a 51% vote of all members is very typical regardless of how the person got on the BOD.

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 06/15/2018 4:05 PM
Jennifer

In ours we have 5 board members and with a vote of 3, one can be removed. Owner approval not needed. Owners can also, with 51%, remove a board member or an entire board. Not that that is easy, even having the 51%, but it's technically possible.

It depends entirely on the individual docs and whether there is a state law that speaks to that.


Typically removing a BOD Member with 3 of the 5 votes applies to a BOD Member appointed by the BOD. I personally have never seen it applied to any BOD Member, especially one elected by fellow owners. There is always a first, but I suggest you read closer.

Owners removing a BOD Member with a 51% vote of all members is very typical regardless of how the person got on the BOD.


And, back she goes into the by-laws...........brb
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Yup. The majority of the board (at least 3 in our case), may remove a board member with our without cause. And elect a replacement also by a majority of the board (we have also been using the term 'appoint' but properly it seems to be called elected (but by the board, not members).

But members can also do it (with great effort). 51% can remove and elect a replacement. In theory, I guess if the board removed someone and replaced them and members didn't like that, we could reverse it with 51%. In practice, getting 51% to do anything is a monumental task.

VirginiaB5 (California)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Curious...if the two board members wern't elected by 51% of the vote because of low voting turnout, can they be removed from the board with the that same lower amount that they were voted in for which was approx 25%?

Virginia L Braun
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Start a new thread.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 06/15/2018 9:45 PM
Start a new thread.

You think it might be a little late by now, or are we the thread police?
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
If we don't do it nobody will. It's common courtesy around here, at least for the last 4 years, that people responding to old threads be asked to start a new one, and most people do so. I'm under no delusion that ignorant people can ever be convinced to listen to reason.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VirginiaB5 on 06/15/2018 7:13 PM
Curious...if the two board members wern't elected by 51% of the vote because of low voting turnout, can they be removed from the board with the that same lower amount that they were voted in for which was approx 25%?

Not if your docs say that 51% owner approval is needed to remove someone.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 06/15/2018 10:13 PM
If we don't do it nobody will. It's common courtesy around here, at least for the last 4 years, that people responding to old threads be asked to start a new one, and most people do so. I'm under no delusion that ignorant people can ever be convinced to listen to reason.

Can you point me to that section in the posting rules for this site, or is it what a few of you want?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Besides I like to see the history over the past few years.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Besides I like to see the history over the past few years.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/15/2018 10:43 PM
Besides I like to see the history over the past few years.

In this case it's a different question than the OP. And, it will not get the attention that it deserves, because not everyone will notice that it is 9 years old, so they will reply to the OP (as I did) and Virginia's issue will be hard to follow.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JenniferG11 on 06/15/2018 10:49 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/15/2018 10:43 PM
Besides I like to see the history over the past few years.


In this case it's a different question than the OP. And, it will not get the attention that it deserves, because not everyone will notice that it is 9 years old, so they will reply to the OP (as I did) and Virginia's issue will be hard to follow.

This is the first sentence of Virginia's question, Our Bylaws and CC&Rs are very old. And I read conflicting statements about removing board members.

How is THAT different from the original topic, 9 years ago?

Many people have responded. My god, LET IT GO!
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/15/2018 11:37 PM
This is the first sentence of Virginia's question, Our Bylaws and CC&Rs are very old. And I read conflicting statements about removing board members.

How is THAT different from the original topic, 9 years ago?

Many people have responded. My god, LET IT GO!

The laws have probably changed in 9 years, Dick. Anyone ever called you Dick before? It's a 9 year old thread for crying out loud. Give it a break and start a new thread already.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 06/16/2018 8:44 AM
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/15/2018 11:37 PM
This is the first sentence of Virginia's question, Our Bylaws and CC&Rs are very old. And I read conflicting statements about removing board members.

How is THAT different from the original topic, 9 years ago?

Many people have responded. My god, LET IT GO!

The laws have probably changed in 9 years, Dick. Anyone ever called you Dick before? It's a 9 year old thread for crying out loud. Give it a break and start a new thread already.

WOW, what an asshole!

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