More votes per owner for larger units?

Started by RickJ1 • 14 replies • 1203 views

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RickJ1 (Virginia)
Posts: 4

Posted:

My situation is this: I've just been elected to the condo board as VP in Virginia and I have recently been made aware that my condo association has a rule where the larger units get two votes per owner compared to one vote for the smaller units. We have a very small condo building (10 units), five of which are 700 square feet and the other five units are 1400 square feet.

Association fees and assessments are prorated per square footage and I totally agree with that practice, but allowing two votes per owner for the larger units means that any four larger units that agree can control all voting on any measure (such as a new roof, etc.).

I’ve been involved with several HOA’s over the years and I’ve never heard of this practice. I need a sanity check. Has anyone else seen anything like this?

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Rick,

Could you tell us the source of this rule? CCRs, ByLaws or a Resolution? If a resolution, did the BOD adopt it or did Membership vote it in?

RickJ1 (Virginia)
Posts: 4

Posted:

John,

The 2-for-1 voting was part of the original condo docs (which have never been amended) dating back 21 years and probably setup by the builder.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Rick,

Well, it appears the only way to get rid of this restriction is to amend the declaration. That may pose a problem as half the owners get 2 votes and they may not want to give that up! All the board can do is try!

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Rick,

If the 2-4-1 has always been there, and nobody (I'll guess) has tried to change it, I'd leave it alone. As the 1400s are essentially paying twice what the 700s do, the extra votes don't seem unreasonable. Some HOAs split dues based on the sq. footage of the lots or of the interiors with complicated calculations. Yours are pretty straight forward and on their face, not unfair.

RickJ1 (Virginia)
Posts: 4

Posted:

>> As the 1400s are essentially paying twice what the 700s do,
>> the extra votes don't seem unreasonable.

That's where we disagree. The larger units pay more because their insurance costs more, repair to windows, balconies, exterior, etc. cost more (smaller units don't have balconies), they get preference to visitor parking spots, and the list goes on.

I believe that the size of your unit should have nothing to do with the number of votes you cast. If four of the larger units decide they want to vote in a rooftop pool or a complete renovation of the building, should they be allowed to dictate to the rest of the community? I'm presenting worst case scenarios here, but it's not inconceivable.

I'm all for democracy and majority rule, but when four out of ten owners can dictate policy, I've got a major problem. Selling and moving on in this market is not an option. I'll let you know how the vote goes in two weeks, but I'm not optimistic. People who have power over others rarely give it up.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Rick,

If you

>>>believe that the size of your unit should have nothing to do with the number of votes you cast<<<

then wouldn't you >logically< have to agree size should have no impact on dues? Share and share alike. Equal votes, equal dues.

But beyond that, has this bifurcation caused any problems in the past?

RickJ1 (Virginia)
Posts: 4

Posted:

John:

Read my last post carefully as to why larger units should pay more. I've been involved (and am currently a member) of several HOA's in both Virginia and Florida. In all cases, units pay dues in proportion to their size, but all associations I have ever been involved with allow only one vote per unit.

Forget about trying to make a case for more votes for larger units for the moment.

What I'm asking here is:

HAS ANYONE SEEN A SPECIFIC CASE ANYWHERE WHERE LARGER UNITS GET MORE VOTES ???

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Rick,

I agree with you in that the size of the unit should have no bearing on the number of votes a member is entitled to cast. If that were to be the norm, then the 3,000+ sq ft homes in my s/d would be getting more votes than my little ole 2,000 sq ft home. And, in answer to your question, no I've never seen this as a "right" in any other HOA, whether condo or single family home. I have seen that larger units may pay higher fees, but that is understandable as you have justified the additional expense of maint/repair.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Q: HAS ANYONE SEEN A SPECIFIC CASE ANYWHERE WHERE LARGER UNITS GET MORE VOTES ???

My Answer: No.

My Q: Rick, have you ever seen a set of CCRs that doesn't allow any changes to the facade of an abandoned 18th Century Springhouse formerly owned by a mistress of William Penn (he's the guy Pennsylvania is named after)? I'll guess you haven't.

My Answer: I have. It's in those of our HOA.

My Q: Is this fair or reasonable?

My Answer: I don't have an opinion about the facade, though I do like sharing the backstory with guests when they look out our FR windows and ask "What's that brick thing beyond the two ponds?"

What matters more is that it's in our CCRs, and that in order to change them, we'd need a 67% vote of Membership. Much as you, if you don't like your 2-4-1 voting rule, would have to change yours (though I'm unaware of your % threshold). Whether other HOAs have a 2-4-1 is irrelevant. Your docs are what they are, and apparently have been for a few decades.

So all you have to do is get enough votes to change the status quo.

Good luck.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

John,

That 18th Century Springhouse formerly owned by Wm Penn is most likely on the National Register, right? There are very specific rules to abide by when renovating those homes so it's not unusual that you have that restriction in your CCRs. Does the assn own this structure? Is it open to the public?

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryA1 on 03/28/2009 10:24 AM
John,

That 18th Century Springhouse formerly owned by Wm Penn is most likely on the National Register, right? There are very specific rules to abide by when renovating those homes so it's not unusual that you have that restriction in your CCRs. Does the assn own this structure? Is it open to the public?

Mary, Esq., Jr.:

A springhouse isn't (nor was) a residence. It's a small (maybe 20x30x12 feet) windowless structure with a natural spring running through it that was used for cooling stuff before other refrigeration (such as ice) was available in the warmer months. Still works - if it's 85F outside, the interior currently might hold at 65F.

Yes, we own it. Don't know if it's registered anywhere, nor if the public has access.

But I do know Billy generously handed over a square mile to his girlfriend, including the house next to mine (which is not part of the HOA) and the land we're built on. Then again, he at one time owned all of bucolic Bucks County, so that was (relatively) pocket change.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

John,

Thx for the explanation of what a springhouse is. Sounds really neat! Are you near Allentown? I grew up in a teeny-tiny coal mining town in Western PA about 30 mi. S. of Pgh.

Mary, Esq, Jr.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Mary,

I'd guess Allentown is an hour+ drive NW of here. Bucks is the county immediately bordering Philadelphia (county and city) on the North. Trenton NJ is due East.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Rick, you posted: "I’ve been involved with several HOA’s over the years and I’ve never heard of this practice. I need a sanity check. Has anyone else seen anything like this?" My answer is yes it can be quite common.

And you obviously have too since you state that your HOA allows it.

Quote:

Posted By RickJ1 on 03/27/2009 10:30 AM

The 2-for-1 voting was part of the original condo docs (which have never been amended) dating back 21 years and probably setup by the builder.

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