GraceH
Posts: 224
Posts: 224
Posted:
Should the employment agreement of a Property Manager have their salary listed?
Also, should it state what their total compensation package is?
Also, should it state what their total compensation package is?
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Prorerty Managers salary
Started by GraceH • 8 replies • 1329 views
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RobertR1
Posts: 5,115
Posts: 5,115
Posted:
Grace,
I have fought this practice for twenty years. We have a new Board in April. This information is included in your financials. It is still shadowed to some extent. Maybe next year it will be clear and up front. I can't tell you how much I am against this practice, not that it matters. I am just bewildered as to why any board would not welcome the chance to put it out front. It is a line item. Also the managers job description should be out front and visible. I consider it just another attempt by a Board to not want to tell the members something as opposed to wanting to relay information to the owners. It is bad practice,it is insidious, it breeds suspicion and it is unnecessary. It is a covenant between the Board and the manager and has no place in an HOA, referring to hiding the information. Why it is not common practice to include the managers job description with the documents conveyed to new owners is beyond me.
I have fought this practice for twenty years. We have a new Board in April. This information is included in your financials. It is still shadowed to some extent. Maybe next year it will be clear and up front. I can't tell you how much I am against this practice, not that it matters. I am just bewildered as to why any board would not welcome the chance to put it out front. It is a line item. Also the managers job description should be out front and visible. I consider it just another attempt by a Board to not want to tell the members something as opposed to wanting to relay information to the owners. It is bad practice,it is insidious, it breeds suspicion and it is unnecessary. It is a covenant between the Board and the manager and has no place in an HOA, referring to hiding the information. Why it is not common practice to include the managers job description with the documents conveyed to new owners is beyond me.
GraceH
Posts: 224
Posts: 224
Posted:
Robert,
Thank you for responding once again.
I have seen where it is a line item, however even then it is combined with the office staffs salary. Nowhere do we have only the pm salary. You mention the job description - We have 2 associations, 2 boards therefore 2 contracts for the pm. Although both contracts are identical. The fees for these 9 page contracts totaled $70.25. We are in the process of arguing that these fees are excessive. Is it normal for a pm to charge an administrative fee for copies of documents? Please keep in mind that before I angered the pm, I was not charged for these copies.
Thank you for responding once again.
I have seen where it is a line item, however even then it is combined with the office staffs salary. Nowhere do we have only the pm salary. You mention the job description - We have 2 associations, 2 boards therefore 2 contracts for the pm. Although both contracts are identical. The fees for these 9 page contracts totaled $70.25. We are in the process of arguing that these fees are excessive. Is it normal for a pm to charge an administrative fee for copies of documents? Please keep in mind that before I angered the pm, I was not charged for these copies.
RobertR1
Posts: 5,115
Posts: 5,115
Posted:
Grace,
I guess we have to be a little more definitive about who we are referring to.
If you financials list expenses under Management company, then it looks like, since you have two associations, one financial report, you don't know who is getting charged for what. Now, if in this Company they have assigned to you a Project manager (single individual) you should know how much he is getting paid.
I can't help but get the impression the Board(s) is not running the show. Certainly the Management company can elect to charge anyone anything they want as long as it is not specified in their contract. Certainly, your Board should demand to know where the money is being spent unless they have agreed by contract to something else (God knows)
But cutting through the crap, this whole thing should be board controlled and your board should be able to answer these contract questions. If they can't, I suggest you demand another contract be signed. If they hesitate and claim they have some long term contract, I would contact a legal eagle. (knowledgable).
There is no doubt their is a great drive in this country for more Transparancy. There is muich to do about HOAs running secret control over the members. I have no real idea if you are caught in this kind of mess, but, bottom line, members have rights, and one of them is the right to know how their money is being spent. If your board don't object and if you had to pay this $70 for nine pages, and they don't get your money back, they are suspect in my mind.
But, just my opinion.
I guess we have to be a little more definitive about who we are referring to.
If you financials list expenses under Management company, then it looks like, since you have two associations, one financial report, you don't know who is getting charged for what. Now, if in this Company they have assigned to you a Project manager (single individual) you should know how much he is getting paid.
I can't help but get the impression the Board(s) is not running the show. Certainly the Management company can elect to charge anyone anything they want as long as it is not specified in their contract. Certainly, your Board should demand to know where the money is being spent unless they have agreed by contract to something else (God knows)
But cutting through the crap, this whole thing should be board controlled and your board should be able to answer these contract questions. If they can't, I suggest you demand another contract be signed. If they hesitate and claim they have some long term contract, I would contact a legal eagle. (knowledgable).
There is no doubt their is a great drive in this country for more Transparancy. There is muich to do about HOAs running secret control over the members. I have no real idea if you are caught in this kind of mess, but, bottom line, members have rights, and one of them is the right to know how their money is being spent. If your board don't object and if you had to pay this $70 for nine pages, and they don't get your money back, they are suspect in my mind.
But, just my opinion.
GraceH
Posts: 224
Posts: 224
Posted:
Robert,
We do not have a management comp. it is a pm on her own with 2 people working below her in the office.
We do have 2 separate budgets and all, however under payroll all three are under 1 administrative line.
You are right, the board is not running anything and over the past few months, more of the Home Owners have been attending the board meetings and trying to make the board see that they are accountable for all of this.
The board did just approve the new contract last month for 2 years. Compensations for doing her job, are listed (hidden) under Job Description which leaves me to believe that it was put in without anyone really knowing or it would have been in the employment agreement.
We feel like we have been running around in circles. Time and time again, we are finding something new that leaves questions. And as I said before, the pm will give an answer and deny it at a later time. She is not pleased that I have exercized my right to record the meetings.
We do not have a management comp. it is a pm on her own with 2 people working below her in the office.
We do have 2 separate budgets and all, however under payroll all three are under 1 administrative line.
You are right, the board is not running anything and over the past few months, more of the Home Owners have been attending the board meetings and trying to make the board see that they are accountable for all of this.
The board did just approve the new contract last month for 2 years. Compensations for doing her job, are listed (hidden) under Job Description which leaves me to believe that it was put in without anyone really knowing or it would have been in the employment agreement.
We feel like we have been running around in circles. Time and time again, we are finding something new that leaves questions. And as I said before, the pm will give an answer and deny it at a later time. She is not pleased that I have exercized my right to record the meetings.
RobertR1
Posts: 5,115
Posts: 5,115
Posted:
Grace,
And my guess is the more you all dig the more you will find. I would imagine this stuff all goes back for a number of years and has just resulted in the tail waging the dog. Happens all the time and is like trying to move mountains to get it changed. But, worth the effort, and it sounds as if you have some support so organize and let all your complaints come from your group instead of you directly, Organize openly, use web sites, newsletters and above all Town Hall meetings. Do not hide anything and have nothing to hide.
And my guess is the more you all dig the more you will find. I would imagine this stuff all goes back for a number of years and has just resulted in the tail waging the dog. Happens all the time and is like trying to move mountains to get it changed. But, worth the effort, and it sounds as if you have some support so organize and let all your complaints come from your group instead of you directly, Organize openly, use web sites, newsletters and above all Town Hall meetings. Do not hide anything and have nothing to hide.
KariL
Posts: 7
Posts: 7
Posted:
Robert,
I would like to add to Grace's comments that the Property Manager in this Association not only runs the show, she is the one who handles all of the money and contract negotiations. At the Board meetings we've attended, the Board usually just votes on pending issues the way the PM advises them to, without question. As Grace said, we've been attending these meetings and have opened the eyes of the Board members. We have actually started a support group for our community, but any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
I would like to add to Grace's comments that the Property Manager in this Association not only runs the show, she is the one who handles all of the money and contract negotiations. At the Board meetings we've attended, the Board usually just votes on pending issues the way the PM advises them to, without question. As Grace said, we've been attending these meetings and have opened the eyes of the Board members. We have actually started a support group for our community, but any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
MaryA1
Posts: 6,993
Posts: 6,993
Posted:
Karl,
As I've stated in another of Grace's threads, the board needs to be made to understand that it's their job to be running the assn as "the buck stops there", so to speak. Any wrong doings committed by the PM are on the shoulders of the BOD. If they can't be made to understand that, then they need to be recalled. This is a problem that occurs in many assn's. I attended an HOA training academy and was surprised to hear a number of board members state their surprise when told the PM was not in charge, they are. I don't understand why some board members think it's the other way around. Since when does an employee ever have more clout than their boss???
As I've stated in another of Grace's threads, the board needs to be made to understand that it's their job to be running the assn as "the buck stops there", so to speak. Any wrong doings committed by the PM are on the shoulders of the BOD. If they can't be made to understand that, then they need to be recalled. This is a problem that occurs in many assn's. I attended an HOA training academy and was surprised to hear a number of board members state their surprise when told the PM was not in charge, they are. I don't understand why some board members think it's the other way around. Since when does an employee ever have more clout than their boss???
RobertR1
Posts: 5,115
Posts: 5,115
Posted:
Well said Mary.
This who is the boss comes right under the priority that all actions must benefit the Real property (association).
This who is the boss comes right under the priority that all actions must benefit the Real property (association).
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