GeneQ (Arizona)
Posts: 2
Posts: 2
Posted:
May a person who is not a home owner ask questions, his wife is the owner of the condo.
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Who may vote and speak at a Board Meeting
Started by GeneQ • 20 replies • 2214 views
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MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Gene,
Aside from the gov docs (articles of inc, CCRs, bylaws and rules), there are a number of state laws which an HOA must abide by. One in particular, ARS33-1804, is the open meeting law (IMO the most important state law we have) which says, in part:
"Notwithstanding any provision in the declaration, bylaws or other documents to the contrary, (meaning no matter what your gov docs say)all meetings of the assn and BOD are open to all members of the assn or any perso designated by a member in writing as the member's representative and all members or designated representatives so desiring shall be permitted to attend and speak at an appropriate time during the deliberations and proceedings. The board may place reasonable time restrictions on those persons speaking during the meeting but shall permit a member or member's designated representative to speak before the board takes formal action on an item under discussion in addition to any other opportunities to speak."
Depending upon the size of your assn, (actually the number of members who usually attend a board meeting) and the makeup of the board, you may not be required to be a "designated representative". In my former assn of only 49 homes we allowed non-members to ask questions, give their opinions, etc. IMO, anyone living in the community (renter or spouse or significant other of a member) should be able to attend a board meeting and ask questions.
Aside from the gov docs (articles of inc, CCRs, bylaws and rules), there are a number of state laws which an HOA must abide by. One in particular, ARS33-1804, is the open meeting law (IMO the most important state law we have) which says, in part:
"Notwithstanding any provision in the declaration, bylaws or other documents to the contrary, (meaning no matter what your gov docs say)all meetings of the assn and BOD are open to all members of the assn or any perso designated by a member in writing as the member's representative and all members or designated representatives so desiring shall be permitted to attend and speak at an appropriate time during the deliberations and proceedings. The board may place reasonable time restrictions on those persons speaking during the meeting but shall permit a member or member's designated representative to speak before the board takes formal action on an item under discussion in addition to any other opportunities to speak."
Depending upon the size of your assn, (actually the number of members who usually attend a board meeting) and the makeup of the board, you may not be required to be a "designated representative". In my former assn of only 49 homes we allowed non-members to ask questions, give their opinions, etc. IMO, anyone living in the community (renter or spouse or significant other of a member) should be able to attend a board meeting and ask questions.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary is right on the dime with the law.
Her advice about local adopted customs also makes sense. I think the caveat that any rules adopted locally probably could not be any more restrictive than the state law. It may be less restrictive.
Is that right Mary?
Her advice about local adopted customs also makes sense. I think the caveat that any rules adopted locally probably could not be any more restrictive than the state law. It may be less restrictive.
Is that right Mary?
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
A motion by the board at the meeting would allow anyone to speak.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Susan,
Technically, you may be right.
In practice it helps if the Board sets up rules for owner participation in a Board Meeting. Usually a specific time is set aside for owners concerns. If, during the meeting a Board member feels an attending owner has information or expertice they can be asked to participate. The Board also has this right to invite anyone to a Board meeting and speak.
Nothing wrong with a Board member making a motion at a Board meeting, however, it is probably out of order for an owner to make a motion. They can at an annual meeting.
I tell you one thing that strikes my crazy bone. At owners meetings and open board meetings, owners don't seem to get the respect that invited experts do. I have been to some Board meetings where the members are barely treated civil, but let them ask, for instance, a contractor to present a proposition and all sorts of condensending remarks, and actions take place.. Do I imagine this?
Technically, you may be right.
In practice it helps if the Board sets up rules for owner participation in a Board Meeting. Usually a specific time is set aside for owners concerns. If, during the meeting a Board member feels an attending owner has information or expertice they can be asked to participate. The Board also has this right to invite anyone to a Board meeting and speak.
Nothing wrong with a Board member making a motion at a Board meeting, however, it is probably out of order for an owner to make a motion. They can at an annual meeting.
I tell you one thing that strikes my crazy bone. At owners meetings and open board meetings, owners don't seem to get the respect that invited experts do. I have been to some Board meetings where the members are barely treated civil, but let them ask, for instance, a contractor to present a proposition and all sorts of condensending remarks, and actions take place.. Do I imagine this?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,
Maybe because an invited guest gives the appearance of being an expert. I mean, why would the BOD invite someone to speak who didn't know what he was talking about, right? Of course, we all know that isn't always the case, but "appearance" takes over.
Maybe because an invited guest gives the appearance of being an expert. I mean, why would the BOD invite someone to speak who didn't know what he was talking about, right? Of course, we all know that isn't always the case, but "appearance" takes over.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 03/23/2009 10:52 PM
Mary is right on the dime with the law.
Her advice about local adopted customs also makes sense. I think the caveat that any rules adopted locally probably could not be any more restrictive than the state law. It may be less restrictive.
Is that right Mary?
Mary is right on the dime with the law.
Her advice about local adopted customs also makes sense. I think the caveat that any rules adopted locally probably could not be any more restrictive than the state law. It may be less restrictive.
Is that right Mary?
Robert,
Yes, you are right in your thinking. The state law requires all meetings to be open to all members and allows a member to have a designated rep but the designation must be made in writing. A BOD may recognize a "designated rep" w/o requiring the designation to be made in writing. The same applies with regard to city/county codes vs CCRs. The CCRs may be more restrictive than the city/county code but they cannot be less restrictive.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 03/24/2009 5:51 AM
A motion by the board at the meeting would allow anyone to speak.
A motion by the board at the meeting would allow anyone to speak.
Susan,
Not if the state law says only members have the right to speak. As I mentioned, the AZ open meeting law goes one step further in allowing the member to have a designated rep who then has the right to speak. A motion by the BOD cannot over-rule State law.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary,
I am reminded af my Navy days when we rountinely inspected each others ship in our group. We did all kinds of scrutiny of the various department so the ships. So, we soon got to calling an expert: "A man from another ship."
Anyway if this "expert" is going to be treated different by the Board, the Board should be ashamed. I am absolutely positive there are many owners that are experts in their field. To often the Boards look upon all these people as, "just owners."
I am reminded af my Navy days when we rountinely inspected each others ship in our group. We did all kinds of scrutiny of the various department so the ships. So, we soon got to calling an expert: "A man from another ship."
Anyway if this "expert" is going to be treated different by the Board, the Board should be ashamed. I am absolutely positive there are many owners that are experts in their field. To often the Boards look upon all these people as, "just owners."
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,
Very true! In many instances the BOD thinks "they're just members, what do they know?" But, in fairness to the BOD members who say that, oftentimes it refers to the fact that the BOD is privy to all sorts of info that the members don't have,so it's understandable to think the members don't know it all. Of course now we're getting into another big issue -- communication. And the beat goes on. . .
Very true! In many instances the BOD thinks "they're just members, what do they know?" But, in fairness to the BOD members who say that, oftentimes it refers to the fact that the BOD is privy to all sorts of info that the members don't have,so it's understandable to think the members don't know it all. Of course now we're getting into another big issue -- communication. And the beat goes on. . .
ScottP (Minnesota)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
Great information. I live in Prior Lake, MN and we have a beach association, not a homeowners association. Does this type of association fall under the same state rules that are being mentioned here. Where do I go to find out my city or States rules are. Also we have a board, a beach committee, Dock committee etc. I am the chair of the beach committee and we bring ideas to the board and privatrly they make the decisions. Can we attend the board meeting when they make these decisions. We have an annual meeting where everyone can talk so this would be a separate board meeting to make decisions in purchases.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Scott,
Start with your Board. If they can call an annual meeting they must have a charter. If you are saying the Board has no clue about the answers to your questions, the very best thing you could do is hire an attorney for consultation to clarify your status. Once you all get that written out, the board can then decide how to proceed. It should only cost a couple hundred and don't make any long term commitment until you get a legal opinion, and maybe you can do most of what has to be done. I would think either someone on the Board is not being open or your association, if you have one, needs attention badly.
Beach association, home association, ranch, property owners, mountain retreat, city park apartments, all just names.
For a quick check look to the left of this page and select CAN link. In it I think there is the fundamental laws or rules or what have you for all states about home owners association.
Start with your Board. If they can call an annual meeting they must have a charter. If you are saying the Board has no clue about the answers to your questions, the very best thing you could do is hire an attorney for consultation to clarify your status. Once you all get that written out, the board can then decide how to proceed. It should only cost a couple hundred and don't make any long term commitment until you get a legal opinion, and maybe you can do most of what has to be done. I would think either someone on the Board is not being open or your association, if you have one, needs attention badly.
Beach association, home association, ranch, property owners, mountain retreat, city park apartments, all just names.
For a quick check look to the left of this page and select CAN link. In it I think there is the fundamental laws or rules or what have you for all states about home owners association.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ScottP on 03/27/2009 8:13 PM
Great information. I live in Prior Lake, MN and we have a beach association, not a homeowners association. Does this type of association fall under the same state rules that are being mentioned here. Where do I go to find out my city or States rules are. Also we have a board, a beach committee, Dock committee etc. I am the chair of the beach committee and we bring ideas to the board and privatrly they make the decisions. Can we attend the board meeting when they make these decisions. We have an annual meeting where everyone can talk so this would be a separate board meeting to make decisions in purchases.
Great information. I live in Prior Lake, MN and we have a beach association, not a homeowners association. Does this type of association fall under the same state rules that are being mentioned here. Where do I go to find out my city or States rules are. Also we have a board, a beach committee, Dock committee etc. I am the chair of the beach committee and we bring ideas to the board and privatrly they make the decisions. Can we attend the board meeting when they make these decisions. We have an annual meeting where everyone can talk so this would be a separate board meeting to make decisions in purchases.
Scott,
Many states have statutes governing HOAs; these can be found by researching the State legislature's website.
Is your "beach association" a nonprofit corp? Is your assn voluntary or mandatory? Do your have governing documents, such as articles of inc, bylaws and CCRs (covenants, conditions & restrictions - sometimes referred to as the declaration). These are the questions your need to answer in order to determine if your beach assn is an HOA. If you don't have the latter (CCRs) then you are not an HOA.
If your assn is an HOA and your documents are silent on who can attend a board meeting:
If there are state laws governing meetings - specifically an open meeting law allowing members to attend all meetings, then I would think you should be allowed to attend. However, if the state does not have such a law and if your documents are silent then, IMO, the board may disallow members from attending board meetings if they so choose.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Scott,
To add to Mary's reply, I want to point out in your association or whatever you turn out to be, you must operate under some authority.
While it is true, if there is no direction in you documents the Board can declare Closed meetings. This is no evidence that this is the proper way to run the railroad and the Membership can elect to amend or add anything (just about)to their governing documents and the first thing I would suggest, if your meetings are closed by board direction, then efforts should be made by the membership to amend the documents and direct "Open Meetings." This is not as simple as it sounds to accomplish, so consider getting this done.
To add to Mary's reply, I want to point out in your association or whatever you turn out to be, you must operate under some authority.
While it is true, if there is no direction in you documents the Board can declare Closed meetings. This is no evidence that this is the proper way to run the railroad and the Membership can elect to amend or add anything (just about)to their governing documents and the first thing I would suggest, if your meetings are closed by board direction, then efforts should be made by the membership to amend the documents and direct "Open Meetings." This is not as simple as it sounds to accomplish, so consider getting this done.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I still stand by my statement that the board can invite anyone to speak or attend a board meeting - by motion. that includes an "expert", guest speaker, or anyone that may have information that can help the board do its job.
Participation at a board meeting can happen if motioned so by the board.
Participation at a board meeting can happen if motioned so by the board.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Susan,
Is this question in contention in this thread.
I agree, you are right and that extends to an owners meeting.
Is this question in contention in this thread.
I agree, you are right and that extends to an owners meeting.
GeneQ (Arizona)
Posts: 2
Posts: 2
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeneQ on 03/23/2009 6:53 PM
May a person who is not a home owner ask questions, his wife is the owner of the condo.
May a person who is not a home owner ask questions, his wife is the owner of the condo.
No motions was made by the HOA to have him speak, he did it on his own. No valid letter from his wife was given to the HOA regarding this matter.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Did the chair recognize him, so he could speak? if no, then the chair (president) should have declared him out of order and asked him to leave.
DianeW (Maryland)
Posts: 147
Posts: 147
Posted:
I certainly am no expert but I cannot imagine not allowing the spouse of the "legal" owner to speak in the absence of the owner. We have homes in our development where the legal ownership is in one or the other names but they really both jointly own the property in reality. Of course, if your case is different and they are estranged or separated or he is known to be a problem, that may make things different. Why would you even consider not allowing the spouse to speak?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
I posted what the law is in AZ; however, it should be noted that although the law states an owner's rep should be designated in writing, if the board chooses to allow someone other than an owner to speak at a board meeting, they may do so. The law was written to give the h/o the right to designate someone to speak for them. It's designed to protect the owner's rights. The law also protects the BOD's rights to disallow a non-owner (who has not been designated as a rep of an owner) from speaking at a board meeting as that non-owners has no rights in the HOA, whether they are the spouse or significant other of a member or are a renter.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary,
Our documents state (to me in a loose fashion): Each unit has one apportioned vote (condo). In the case of multiple owners, an election is made by the owners to assign one individual to hold the vote. In total they will be co-owners. Then it talks about individual units and specifies husband wife as co-owners. Then it speaks to assigning specifics or all rights to a POA or a specific person. That of course could mean a special friend or someone. Now if they would do this then would that mean that the POA holder's wife would be a co-owner, and probably would carry the right to speak at a meeting as a co-owner. Although i don't see where is speaks directly to co-owners we have always allowed and co-owner to speak at meetings. It still remains one apportioned vote/unit.
It does appear in the long and short, that each act to transfer any rights of any owner should just be done by assignment and all votes should be done by absentee ballots.
Also, I suspect it should be routine for all meeting of the association that the specific guidelines and rules be announced prior to the meeting, maybe even including them in the meeting notice. Certainly the presiding must have some lattitude to control the meeting and act in such a way as to move the meeting forward.
I know AZ has outlawed proxies, but would absentee ballots assigning a vote count as a proxy?
Our documents state (to me in a loose fashion): Each unit has one apportioned vote (condo). In the case of multiple owners, an election is made by the owners to assign one individual to hold the vote. In total they will be co-owners. Then it talks about individual units and specifies husband wife as co-owners. Then it speaks to assigning specifics or all rights to a POA or a specific person. That of course could mean a special friend or someone. Now if they would do this then would that mean that the POA holder's wife would be a co-owner, and probably would carry the right to speak at a meeting as a co-owner. Although i don't see where is speaks directly to co-owners we have always allowed and co-owner to speak at meetings. It still remains one apportioned vote/unit.
It does appear in the long and short, that each act to transfer any rights of any owner should just be done by assignment and all votes should be done by absentee ballots.
Also, I suspect it should be routine for all meeting of the association that the specific guidelines and rules be announced prior to the meeting, maybe even including them in the meeting notice. Certainly the presiding must have some lattitude to control the meeting and act in such a way as to move the meeting forward.
I know AZ has outlawed proxies, but would absentee ballots assigning a vote count as a proxy?
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