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RandalR (Tennessee)
Posts: 98
Posted:
A little over a year ago our BOD declared that our neighborhood was no longer a voluntary HOA and that it was now mandatory that any new residents had no option on joining the association. There was a grandfather clause in the revised covenants that essentially continued to make membership voluntary for those that were current residents.

Our neighborhood has 263 households. In order to get the 51% "majority", the BOD spent 18 months trying to collect signatures even though their attorney recommended not having their signature campaign go over 6 months. Signatures were only collected from those that were supposedly in agreement with going to mandatory dues. Six attorney's told the BOD that a voluntary association could not transition to a mandatory association, so they went with the seventh attorney that said, "No problem!" Some new residents were asked to sign the covenant vote without being specifically told it was a vote on going mandatory (they just thought it was something that all new residents were supposed to sign). There were some other small issues too that I don't remember at the moment.

With all these little "oddities" an attorney that I consulted with recommended that the HOA have a judicial review of our covenants to ensure that they are legal. Considering the personalities that we have on our board I can see them getting us into a legal mess by filing liens on residents that will take them to court and challenge the way the covenants were revised.

Has any other HOA transitioned from voluntary to mandatory dues and/or had a their covenants undergo a judicial review?
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Yes, I know of two in Colorado. Neither has had their amendment to the Covenants challenged in court. To my knowledge both were advised it was legal by their attorneys. They used a process similar to what you described.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Randall,
Please explain what a Judicial Review is? Can I buy one, is it bigger than a bread box.......just kidding.
If there is a procedure that an HOA could request a judical review, I am sure a lot of folks would be interested. This review was apparnetly suggested by a lawyer, see if you can get details as to state application, procedures and cost involved and who actually does the review.
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice. It merely reflects my findings from my research into governance of CIDs and POAs.

What RogerB describes is a good example of abuse by a board using an attorney's opinion as justification. RandalR's post shows that legal opinions are not unique. In his case, the BOD essentially "opinion shopped" until the BOD got the opinion it wanted. That doesn't mean that the opinion is valid under the law.

What likely happens as described by RogerB is that owners acquiesce to the action of the board, since the only avenue available is to file a complaint against the association claiming that the action is invalid under the law. That probably only happens if an owner has "deep pockets" or if a group of owners file the lawsuit to share the cost.

When a proposed amendment is a major change in the restrictive covenants, some courts have ruled that unanimous approval of the owners is required. Changing from a voluntary association to a mandatory association may be treated as a major change in the "bargain" that owners have with one another. See Armstrong v Ledges for an example of such a ruling. The opinion cites similar rulings in other states.

If RandalR wants to challenge the action of the BOD, a lawsuit is likely required. If not challenged in court, the actions of the BOD will likely prevail, as in the situations described by RogerB. I believe the only judicial review is obtained by filing a lawsuit.

My view is that legislation is needed establishing an ombudsman in the office of attorney general to render legal opinions on interpretation of the governing documents and the law. In Michigan, opinions of the attorney general are binding unless overturned by a court.

We should all be working with our legislators to enact legislation establishing the ombudsman in the office of attorney general. The issue is consumer protection.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
I agree with Don's observations 100%!! (For what that's worth! LOL )

Some time back a gal from VA posted that a VA Appeals Court ruled that a 100% vote was required to change from voluntary to mandatory. I know there have been several HOAs here in AZ that have gone this route w/o a 100% vote but I don't know if any have been challenged in court. IMO, a 100% vote should definitely be required.

Regarding the judicial review of the covenants, I would check out state law. I know there are no AZ state laws addressing this. The AZ nonprofit corp statutes address judicial dissolution, but of course that would not apply. Frankly, I think the only way to know for sure what the correct procedure would be is to file a lawsuit against the HOA. This is definitely a topic that should be addressed by state law!

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
My association has recently gone through something that sounds almost exactly like what you had written... prolonged signature collecting, switching lawyers to find one willing, not disclosing information to homeowners, changing to affirmative covenants, etc. etc. etc...

It is currently going through the courts in FL.
MaryN3 (Virginia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I think I'm that gal from VA. The case is a NC case...Ledgers...if I remember correctly. Our Association tried to change us from voluntary to mandatory and only part of the subdivision would be affected. We took them to court..and the covenants they changed were ruled null and void. The judge ordered...per covenants...that each lot in the subdivision pays an equal share of the road maintenance fees. Membership in the Association remains voluntary....we spent lots of money, time and effort. We have the circuit courts ruling in hand...the BOD did not appeal to the VA Supreme Court...and now for the kicker...they still believe that some property owners are mandatory members...(judge ruled specifically...not a mandatory association...later in the ruling...is a voluntary association)and they are going to follow the advise of an attorney who doesn't really know what he is doing. In other words... the battle goes on.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Hi Mary,

So, are you saying it was a NC Court of Appeals that ruled a 100% vote is required to change from voluntary to mandatory? I seem to recall that statement being made by you but I thought it was the VA Court of Appeals.
DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
I just bought a bread box, from the 50's, and was finally able to bake my bread after a week or so of not having the time, due to addressing the seemingly eternal question of CC&R's, "What in the hell does this say?" I finally just asked my own attorney, who has done several CC&R's here, to review this for me and see what we have, before I go any further in our revision process. Once I have this information, I intend to call a special meeting that announces, "Come see what our CC&R's actually say. Come see what we think they say. Come have your say in the revision process of our CC&R's." Won't that be fun? I prefer baking bread and putting it in my pretty bread box.

Dorothy
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I would think that the main determinant in this issue is the questions of what liabilities does the association have responsibilty for?

If there are obligations that MUST be cared for, then everyone MUST participate (financially) in its care - mandatory. A corporation is the legal set up for this, run by a board, and having "members" who are members simply because they participate financially.

This is not a bunch of people who volunteer to take care of a garden or have parties, but rather a membership of residents who must collectively be the caretakers of the assets of the corporation. No choice about it, it's mandatory.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Dorothy,

I think you have a great idea. One of the biggest problems of assn living is that too many members (including board members!) just don't understand that animal called "the CCRs"!! Upon being elected treasurer of a small HOA (my first home in HOA-land!) I wrote up a long letter to all the members that contained a q&a explaining the more important parts of our CCRs. It was a big hit and served to answer many questions. Looking back, I think a meeting would have been a better plan. Since you are planning a revision of your CCRs it's very critical for everyone to thoroughly understand all the provisions so they can best determine what should and should not be changed, thereby enabling them to more intelligently vote on the proposed amendments.
DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
Mary,
We also thought of a "test" to see who knew what, mainly as a bit of humor, because we are pretty sure there would be a variety of answers for the same question. One thing I just found out yesterday, via this lovely site, is the FCC Telecommunications Law of 1995, prohibiting anyone from restricting anyone else's access to reception via satellite. Our CC&R's were written in 1992, and prohibit those big, space-ship looking satellites, and have other restrictions regarding view from street, etc. This was one of the "easier" covenants to update - or so I thought. Now, I get to tell the HOA that we cannot prohibit satellites, and if the only reception a homeowner can get is through the street-side placement of the dish, we cannot prohibit that either! HA!

But I am eager to see what the attorney has to say about our CC&R's. One can't enforce an unenforceable document, and when 75% is needed for any change we pretty much need everyone on the same page.

Dorothy
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Dorothy,
I understand what you are saying about the FCC rule on antenna. However I caution that there should be clear distinction made between HOA's and condominium. I recently had an exchange about this and I will post my reply.
The telephone # at the end I found to be very helpful and clear talking to person to person.
Of course you right but this installation still has to be on private property and can not be on common property without Board permission. I would suggest a board never give permission to anyone to put anything on common property. What a can of worms that would be.

*************************************
The way I read this stuff (including the FCC Information sheet regarding this subject is:

As far as the RIGHT for any owner to put up an antenna or on any common property of a Condominium; there is none.

However, there should be covenants that address this situation in place in all condominiums. There is no standard form that applys to all condos. Each individual condo is directed to develop regulations and restrictions on the specifics about where it would be acceptable to place these antennas.

If it would require penetration of the building, that would have to be specific, if it required running cables externally on the common property, that would have to be amended (if applicable) in the covenants and specific listed. In a condo the physical layout could preclude granting permission to some and denying permission to others. If you granted permission to some and denied it to others and were challanged the FCC says that is a legal matter and not under their purview.

This has been brought up before and ignored.

To conclude: In a condominium the owners do not have the RIGHT to put up antennas, unless there is no written covenants forbidding it. But even then, if they do it and the Regime develops covenants or rules concerning this and those rules conform to the FCC regulations, the owner would have to remove the antenna. So, in fact, the owner has no RIGHT in condos, he make get permission from the regime, if certain criteria are met.

The last listing about this from FCC is Dec 2007.

If you have doubts you can call 1 888 225 5322, which I jus did, and they will answer any questions.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,

You are correct in saying that a member of a condo assn cannot install a satellite dish antenna on any common property areas. However, that does not mean he cannot have a satellite dish antenna. He can install one on his own property, which I know can be limited, but I don't believe it's impossible. Is the patio his property or is that a limited common area?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Mary,
Thanks for the other ES stuff you sent. I will use it to see if I can interject some clarity and ration wordage(sic) in the new Policy that I feel will be established after we get this annual meeting over. At least, I hope so.

My case for antenna involved a condo that had a balcony (Limited common) for his exclusive use. He could not get a picture there and installed it on the roof. A New Jersey owner came through here and said FCC laws states you can not stop him from obtaining a signal so they let him do it. I got the FCC law, showed it to them, they still don't belive me. I called the FCC number and talked person to person and FCC says I am right. They won't call FCC and don't response when I tell them to find out for temselves. Now the antenna is gone, owner took it out. A moot point, but I want the Board to recognize, even though they can give special permission to install antenna on common property, it is a truly bad policy to start. You do that and the door is open for anything. The FCC also said to me if you get into any conflict , don't come to FCC, it will have to be settled in court, as far as special permission to do this.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Don, in the cases of which I am aware I do not believe there was abuse by the Board. I believe the legality depended on the Declaration of CC&Rs and was not just shopping until there was agreement by one attorney. In each case the current owner could opt out of paying manditory assessment but when the property was sold the new owner was manditory.
DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
Robert,
No, we are not condos, solely single homes, 41 in the hood, all private property. Of course the first thing that came to my mind, being the cynic that I am, is a homeowner claiming no reception is possible except in the front. As we revise this covenant wouldn't we include language reflecting required written confirmation of that from the satellite company?

Dorothy
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Dorothy,

I suggest you download a copy of the FCC fact sheet. It can be found at:

www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

This is a q&a fact sheet that should answer all your questions. There is one question in particular: "I'm a board member ofa HOA and we want to revise our restrictions so that they will comply with the FCC rule. Do you have guidelines you can send me?" In the answer, it's stated: "The residents should comply with the placement preferences provided the preferred placement does not impose unreasonable delay or expense or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal." So, you see, the key points are not to impose unreasonable delay or expense or preclude reception of a quality signal". I wouldn't be surprised that some installers would say the installed location IS the best location.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
. . . not to mention that someone will say that having to provide a written confirmation is either undue delay or expense.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
All,
Want to read FCC, use search feature this page, plug in FCC................Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Michele,

Agreed. Which is why I think it best for the HOA to just approve the location the member selected. They can still have a rule outlining the preferred location but if the member wants to put the dish somewhere else, it's not worth objecting to.
DorothyO (Washington)
Posts: 293
Posted:
Mary,
Yes, I went to that site, which is how I found out that if the best place for the dish is in the front that's where it will go. As for the written confirmation that can be done at the time of the initial appointment and given to the homeowner, so there won't be any unreasonable delay etc.

I spoke to our local dish guy who told me that you only need 60% of reception to receive full access to the satellite. So even if the "best" place is in the front directly facing the southeast direction where the satellite around here is positioned, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the "only" place to receive all 150 billion channels. What is surprising to me is in this 30 minute conversation I had with the guy he never mentioned the FCC regulation, specifically in regards to those common prohibitions in CC&R's. Perhaps I shall ring him again!

Dorothy
MaryN3 (Virginia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Mary,
Yes, the NC Supreme Court ruled in the Ledgers case that 100% agreement to make a mandatory membership association. We went to court in VA and both attorney's agreed with that ruling. This became an issue because our association asserted it was a mandatory one...but there was NO DECLARATION as ruled by the VA Supreme Court in the Dogwood Valley Case. We won in court...and now the that the judge has ruled the BOD has made a huge mess...misreading the Judge's orders, etc. Looks like we are probably going back to court...just don't know if it's going to be a contempt of court..or what...we're waiting to hear from our attorneys...who can't believe what's going on. We are using attorneys who specialize in HOA law. And we thought it was over.
MaryN
RandalR (Tennessee)
Posts: 98
Posted:
Mary,

I'm a little confused about there not being a DECLARATION and how that figures into the scheme of things. Can you clarify that in a little more detail? I'd also like some more details on how the BOD made a huge mess of things. With court rulings against the voluntary HOA's that attempted to enforce mandatory dues in both VA and NC I would think that could be used a precedent in any TN case too. But then again I don't think our state has anything on the books having to do with HOA's, it's all considered to fall in a gray area under real estate law. It's amazing how many real estate attorneys just scratch their heads when you try to get their opinion on an HOA question. The best any of them can seem to come up with is that "it should be spelled out in your covenants!"
MaryN3 (Virginia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
A declaration, not implied, but clearly stated...and authority clearly given by a builder who has the authority to give...must be filed at the land use office(in VA)to qualify as a property owners association under POAVA(the laws which govern home/property owner associations)when the subdivision is established. The Association which tries to run our subdivision has no declaration. It passed new covenants which they thought would establish a declaration, but it can't be done almost 40 years later...unless 100% of the property owners sign an agreement(notarized)to do so. Fat chance. In the Judges orders he did say that individual owners who choose to can become mandatory members by signing an agreement. It's about membership.
Annual dues...we are a voluntary membership organization, but our individual deeds state that we shall share equally in road maintenance. That is mandatory equal payment...what is not mandatory...is membership, paying for birthday cakes, lunches and gas money for board members to attend meetings, legal fees...and all the other items that aren't considered road maintenance.
I understand how difficult it is to find an attorney who specializes in Home owner association law. Someone from the HOAtalk.com site gave me a name, we are a rural community and had to travel to Richmond, 1 1/2 hour trip to find them...but it was worth it...he knows the law. It was very expensive...so be forewarned if you go in the legal direction. This is the POAVA site so you can see what an industry it has become...also, you will be able to read the laws. Poava.org surf around, "other" has lots of interesting links. It will probably make you gratefull that Tenn hasn't been involved in new laws/regulations. We are a small sub division of 42 lots...and shouldn't require all the stuff that larger subdivisions do.
Our lawyers told us that the cases from states geographically closest are used and usually recognized by judges.
Hope I didn't confuse you .... I am not an attorney...just relating what we've been told by ours.
Good luck,
Mary
RandalR (Tennessee)
Posts: 98
Posted:
Sounds somewhat different from our situation. We were set up as a voluntary organization and things ran quite well for 20+ years. On average 225 of the 263 households always paid their dues. Had a pool/tennis that cost extra if you wanted to join the "rec association". They made the mistake of allowing a swim team to startup and they took control of our pool managing to close it to the membership from 5pm-7pm during the week. The rec memberships started to decline so then the pool became a millstone around the HOA's neck and they got desperate and decided mandatory dues would be the solution to everything! Supposedly our covenants weren't legal anyway as they didn't have an expiration date? But who knows, so many things were misrepresented in order to get the votes they spent 18 months collecting.

Have you seen any sort of links that would help me pull up any of the rulings in the NC or VA cases?

Thanks,

Randal
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
In Texas if an association goes from voluntary to mandatory, then it requires 2/3 of the owners to sign off. Then from the date of filing the remaining people (who did not sign the petition for new covenants) have one year in which they can file to opt out of said association.

Robert, as for the antennas, what matters to the FCC is "exclusive use." Thus if the balcony is a common area yet only available for one resident's use, said resident has the right to put an antenna there.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Kirk,
Hope I didn't say they didn't (how's that for a sentence). There are also restrictions on the use of Limited Common. One of them would be if the antenna interfered with anyone else's view, another could be the height of the antenna.

If you really have any specifics, the FCC phone # I listed seems very knowledgeable about all the details. But bear in mind that if any of this results in Lawsuits that does not include the FCC they will direct that resolutions be sought in the court. I take that to mean; if a problem comes up between the owner and the association that is a local problem between the two parties.
MaryN3 (Virginia)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I'm having computer problems..tried to post this before...but here goes again:

Hope this answers your questions:

Wenkleman vs. Dogwood Valley is the VA Supreme court case which basically ruled..
a declaration is needed to be a property owners association under Va law...that declaration must be filed in the land use office...and give the association the power to collect and maintain common areas..that power can not be implied..

Armstrong vs. Ledges is the NC Supreme Court case which basically ruled...to convert from a voluntary to a mandatory membership requires 100% agreement/vote by the entire subdivision. It is case no 640PA05 filed August 18, 2006

Both of these cases were quoted when we were in court...and both applied to our case...

We have a ruling, but the BOD is off on a tangent and is now trying to make some mandatory members...and trying to use the authority of their Articles of Incorp....so the battle continues...looks like they are now in contempt of court..

Mary
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
MaryN, I hope your computer problems get fixed soon. You have your head on straight and would be a welcome addition to the forum here.

However your name may have to be altered. I don't think we can handle two Hail Marys'. And I say that fondly, the other Mary is a fierce competitor and knows her P's and Q's. She has a natural (I suppose) flair for digging up all sorts of things from different states. I am lucky to get information from the SC website, she can find out the who your grand pappy was.

I don't suppose I would be far out if I assumed you have a difficult, if not entrenched Board. Our change out came last Saturday and I swear the air is clearer around here. Do you have plans on making some changes with your board? If you can get attrition to do the job for you, all the better, but I got my doubts.
Their resistance to put this court business behind them and move on is disturbing, nothing to be gained now, cut your loses and look to the future. Dr. Phil calls folks like that "right fighters", all that is important is that they be right, whatever the cost.
My son, a VP at a large corp. labels this kind of stuff as "posturing." Nothing to be gained, lots to be lost, but always make yourselve look good. Would I be wrong if I concluded you would not be out of line if you questioned the Board to explain how all this time and money is going to make your association a better place. Does that fit?
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
RogerB

There are many legal questions raised by your post.
  • Does the change from voluntary to mandatory members fundamentally change the charter of the CID? If so, unanimous approval may be required. See Armstrong v Ledges for a comprehensive opinion. Note that the opinion depends upon the statutory law.
  • What is the legal basis for the amendment applying only to future owners? Normally, a valid amend applies prospectively (meaning from the date forward). If so, the amendment should apply to all existing owners, if valid.
My concern is about how one determines whether or not the legal opinion is valid, meaning that it would likely be affirmed by a Court of Appeals. How can one know?

There are many reasons to be skeptical of a singular legal opinion. See Should a Legal Opinion be Believed?.

What may be occurring is that no member chooses to challenge the amendment in court based on the legal opinion. That does not make it a valid opinion under the law and the governing documents.

Please read an interesting article on a similar situation in which a similar proposed amendment is being challenged in court: Dispute over mandatory membership at Kensington heads to court.

The Association has the resources of all the members to get it right before proceeding. By getting it right, the legal analysis supporting the proposed amendment would likely be affirmed by the court of appeals.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Don, you raise several valid questions.
Armstrong v Ledges states: 2. Deeds_restrictive covenants_amendments ..."the trial court did not err by refusing injunctive relief. Petitioners accepted their deeds with the knowledge that the restrictive covenants could be amended in the future." I believe the attorney was guided by the existing Covenants when making amendments. The amendment does apply to all existing owners at the time it was filed with the county.

I would agree with you that to determine the validity, in Colorado, would require a decision by the Court of Appeals.

I agree with your article on believing a legal opinion. I think it important that all Board members use good business judgement and challenge any opinion with which they question. Meanwhile, so long as the Board members act in good faith and have adequate D&O insurance coverage they will always need to make decisions and move forward.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Don, I just read the link to: Dispute over mandatory membership at Kensington heads to court. This refers to manditory membership to their country club which may be considered somewhat different than manditory membership in a common interest community with very limited amenities.

The article states the HOA's attorney "Glickman has represented more than 20 communities in Florida that have successfully converted to mandatory membership, including Collier’s Reserve and Audubon, both in North Naples." I wonder if any of these have gone to the Florida Court of Appeals.

DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
RogerB

While legal opinions are difficult, the legal requirements for certain kinds of amendments/changes to CC&Rs are even more difficult. However, a good approach is almost always the same: (1) read and understand the CC&Rs and other governing documents; (2) read and understand the statutory law; (3) read and understand the applicable case law. It is the third part that is the most difficult. The case law is incomplete in many cases. Courts of Appeals typically refer to case law on similar cases in other states. So, there are many reasons to be skeptical of a singular legal opinion.

My posts are intended to provide food for thought. Without knowing all the specifics, specific advice on results cannot be given.

The NC case, Armstrong v Ledges, provides a comprehensive analysis that may apply to a range of amendments/changes to CC&Rs. The Court opined that any change that fundamentally changes the character of the CID requires unanimous approval It references similar opinions from other states. In the Armstrong case, the proposed amendment expanded to scope of the CID which required large changes in dues/assessments. The NC Supreme Court set aside the amendment/change to the CC&Rs because it was not unanimously approved.

The changes from voluntary to mandatory membership is likely a fundamental change in character of the CID, and one that may result in a large increase in dues/assessments. It may be a roll of the dice to predict how a state court of appeals would rule. My bet is that, absent state statute or precedent, the CofA would defer to opinions from other states if the legal reasoning applies.

The Naples, Florida, lawsuit over a proposed change from voluntary to mandatory membership would result in a large change in dues/assessments for those not currently members of the golf course. For them, the change is a large change and could result in some having to sell their homes and move to escape the burden of a large increase in dues/assessments. Saleability of homes would also be affected with the higher dues/assessments

Because of the litigation costs to individual owners, actions that are likely invalid under the law and governing documents may be accepted. This certainly creates a potential for abuse by the board. The board has the resources from all the members to get it right, and not to proceed if there is doubt. I favor a requirement in statutory law so stating.

My research indicates that Louisiana has solved the amendment/change issue by a statutory requirement that any amendment that imposes more stringent requirements requires unanimous approval.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Don,
Well, I can't say you started me thinking about it, but all this is turely food for thought.
Consider a large majority of the folks posting on this site:
Consider the content (what I can understand) of your post and consider how complicated these legal questions that are popping up like deer under a spotlight, what to do day to day for the Boards and the owners? The whole complextion is changing, do you agree.

Is a big question, like the elephant in the room, how do associations stay out of trouble? Can they stay out of trouble?
I think some can by acting more responsive, don't go the the Lawyer's office so much, talk to and with the owners, be completely transparent. This Board/owner relationship is going to have to change also.

But how do you change associations to productive, safe and desirable places to live? I doubt it will be the courts, nor the states, I believe the potential to make a better place resides in the ownership. It can't come from management or managers, it has to come from within.
Some management may be better than the board, but they hold no vote. Some managers may be better managers than the Board, and may well end up being less than they are, bacause the don't have the strings to pull.

No one wants to step in legal quicksand and find themselves five years down the line broke and unable to exist. Owners and Boards and associations, all alike.

Or, is the way already carved out and we will see the demise of HOA's and such?

DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
RobertR1

The questions you raise should be part of a new thread. Since effective owners associations solve their own problems, a place to start is the research on "self-regulating organizations". Try an internet search with the term. Successful self-regulating organizations have many characteristics in common.

DianaW (Colorado)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Legal challenges are costly-we all know that. And when the HOA has the deep pocket of funds paid into by past and current members, the letter writing contest can be drawn out by the HOA attorney from the war chest. And if the newly revised covenant was written by the HOA attorney, then why a review? Who should do it? Who pays?
Roger, I believe you should say which cases you are referring to when you cite cases in this forum. Is one of them the HOA you are property manager for currently which has been changed from a 30 year old community of volunteer membership to the current covenant revision of mandatory which you strongly support? The process used for this change in covenant was underhanded and not open. The deadline for voting was extended until the special interest supporters went to homeowners that had not voted in order to get the 50% plus 1 for acceptance. Open transparent processes were not in place and the leaders of the movement were not forthright when asked for information. A number of us asked and were refused the information.
RandalR (Tennessee)
Posts: 98
Posted:
I'm still somewhat confused about the the "Armstrong vs. Ledgers" case. I read a link to it (http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2006/640-05-1.htm) but I can't understand where some are coming up with the opinion that it's a basis for requiring 100% approval to change from a voluntary to mandatory association. Anyone know a case reference where it specifically says it requires 100% approval to go mandatory? Maybe I'm just doing brain dead reading legal briefs and missing it!

After some residents had their attorney threaten to sue the HOA should they ever try to file a lien against them for non-payment of dues, the BOD put in a grandfather clause. This "supposedly" exempted current owners from having liens filed against them and made association fees mandatory only on new residents as they moved into the neighborhood. But they do refer to us as a mandatory association now.

As expected the BOD promised at the annual meeting to address the issue of having a "judicial review" of our covenants to make sure the change was legal. In the BOD minutes (which are always posted way late) they kept referring to it as a "Judicial Review of the Bylaws" and it kept getting deferred. Now they're saying they've discussed it with an attorney and there's not a problem so they're closing the action. Can't wait to see if it's the same attorney they told them we could go mandatory even though 6 others said we couldn't.

Just to make it more interesting I found out that they're now concerned over the declining number of residents that are paying their dues. Since I lead the "opposition party" one board member actually contacted me to see what I thought could be done about it. Last year they managed to collect from ~220 (out of 264). This year only ~200 have signed up! To address this they're now talking about how to "legally" make everyone have to pay towards the neighborhood upkeep! We've got a pool that continues to suck us dry. So much for the BOD keeping it's word on the grandfather clause.

Randal

DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
RandalR

The last paragraph in Armstrong states,
For the reasons stated above, we conclude that the disputed amendment is invalid and unenforceable. In so doing, we echo the rationale of the Supreme Court of Nebraska in Boyles v. Hausmann, 246 Neb. 181, 191, 517 N.W.2d 610, 617 (1994): “The law will not subject a minority of landowners to unlimited and unexpected restrictions on the use of their land merely because the covenant agreement permitted a majority to make changes in existing covenants.” Here, petitioners purchased their lotswithout notice that they would be subjected to additional restrictions on use of the lots and responsible for additional affirmative monetary obligations imposed by a homeowners' association. This Court will not permit the Association to use the Declaration's amendment provision as a vehicle for imposing a new and different set of covenants, thereby substituting a new obligation for the original bargain of the covenanting parties. Accordingly, we reverse the opinion of the North Carolina Court of Appeals and remand this case to that court for further remand to the trial court for additional proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion.

Particularly, note the sentence which I have placed in bold.

Changing from voluntary to mandatory could well be interpreted as forcing the minority to accept "unlimited and unexpected restrictions". This leads to the conclusion that unanimous approval is required for such amendments.

Changing from voluntary to mandatory is a fundamental change in an owners association. I am not surprised that some boards and the associations' attorneys would try to bully the members into accepting less than unanimous approval. That is part of what attorneys do. Unfortunately, seldom does and association's attorney represent the interest of members. Contrary to the requirement that the client is the association, the attorney typically supports what the board wants. There is always wiggle room in the legal opinion. See Should a Legal Opinion be Believed?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
IMO, this is a matter than can only be resolved in a court of law, unless your state has a specific statute addressing conversion from mandatory to voluntary HOA. Common sense tells me it should be a 100% vote of the property owners, but, also, common sense is not so common. And, attorneys just looking for a legal fee will most likely tell the BOD a majority of the prop owners can make the switch. What I would like to ask these attorneys is to quote the law which says this. I wouldn't be afraid to bet that in most instances there isn't one!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Don,
Do you think the words minority and majority are importqant in this decision?

DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
I suspect that most of these voluntary vs. mandatory proposals are about money. The people who want an expensive facility or activity want mandatory membership to pay the dues and assessments. "I want my lifestyle and want more people to pay for it!"

That is certainly the thrust of the litigation in Naples, Florida Dispute over mandatory membership at Kensington heads to court.

A quotation from the article
"A number of communities on Florida’s east coast succeeded in getting mandatory membership overturned in court because it would “destroy the general scheme or plan of the development,” said Altieri, 59, who has lived in Kensington for four years."
is consistent with the opinion in Armstrong v Ledges.

MaryA1, certainly a court of law could decide, but the legal costs are more than people are willing to pay in some cases. If the association's attorney doesn't represent the common interest of the members and conduct the research you suggest, the result is that the attorney defends what the board wants to do. That is what attorneys do when they advocate for a client.

RobertR1, political theory is that minorities need protection from the tyranny of the majority. In our country, those protections stem from the Bill of Rights. Majority rule gives too much power to the majority. See Statement of Rights for my thoughts on fundamental rights of members of owners associations chartered by CC&Rs.

In addition to Armstrong, there are other cases that require unanimous approval for any amendment that creates non-uniform requirements. My recollection is that statutory law in Louisiana requires unanimous approval for any amendment of CC&Rs that creates a more stringent requirement. That requirement may go too far and create gridlock and inability to correct obvious errors.

Because litigation is often expensive, I favor empowering the office of attorney general to provide binding legal opinions, until decided otherwise by a court of appeals, on such fundamental questions. I believe there would be very strong secondary effects on the actions of association attorneys if they knew their opinions could be. or would likely be, reviewed by the AG.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Don,

So how is the determination made if not by a court of law?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Don,
Thanks for you response.
I suppose my question stems from the perception that associations are created to serve the majority. In my experience, there seems to be great weight put on: "if the majority want it, that rules the day. Extrapolated that means: the BOD has to abide by the majority, when in fact Boards seldom consider the majority and in my mind shouldn't.

The lead dog is the Association and what is best for the whole. Therefore, do the words minority and majority belong in the documents. I understand that a court of law has to determine intent, would the intent to serve the majority prevail over the intent to protect the associations , or, am I just creating scenarios that take care of themselves.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,

If the majority of the HOA wants the board to do something that is in violation of state or fed law, does that make it right? I think not! The majority doesn't always know what's right for the assn. That's why there is a BOD whose resp is to properly manage the HOA IAW the gov docs and state and fed law. The majority may be able to change the gov docs of the HOA (and that's even doubtful!!) but they cannot change state and fed law. I can't imagine a judge ruling in favor of an HOA that broke state or fed law.
RandalR (Tennessee)
Posts: 98
Posted:
I understand the part about “The law will not subject a minority of landowners to unlimited and unexpected restrictions on the use of their land merely because the covenant agreement permitted a majority to make changes in existing covenants.”

Let's play "devil's advocate" here. Since there is a grandfather clause which "supposedly" only makes new homeowners subject to liens for nonpayment of dues, then only they truly fall under the mandatory dues. Paying dues is theoretically still an option for those residents that lived here prior to the new mandatory covenants passing. New residents buy into the neighborhood know they're expected to pay. So have the prior residents really been subjected to unlimited and unexpected restrictions on the use of their land?

Thanks,

Randal
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Randal,
I am certainly not sure, as this stuff is very technical, but you maybe be talking about some of the material Don has referenced in his post. Lord, it is really complicated and maybe Don will post about this, but it could be that you are trying to resolve two problems with one solution. There seems to be a separation of what we consider normal association business (rules, regulations, covenants, etc.) and those matters that have to do with the land. "Running with the Land" I think means laws that go with the title to the land and in associations this means common property, I think. Certainly it does in condo's and how this reflects on HOA's I am not quite sure. But, again I am not sure of any of this stuff.
Check out some of Don's links and when you do, go to his Home Page for more encompassing information. Mostly Greek to me, but, Don seems to know what he is talking about and has put in a tremendous amount of effort.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Robert,

Restrictive covenants (CCRs) "run with the land". This has nothing to do with the common areas, it has to to with ALL the property contained w/i the HOA that is bound by CCRs; i.e., all the condo units and/or all the single family homes. "Running with the land" means the restrictive covenants are passed on to each succeeding property owner, i.e., when I sell my home to you, the CCRs remain with the property and you are not subject to them. This goes on and on until the period that the covenants shall remain in effect (as stated in the CCRs) runs out or until an amendment makes them null and void.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Randall,

There are deed restrictions on all the properties w/i the community, whether membership is mandatory or voluntary. Whether the assn is voluntry or mandatory only has to do with whether the members are obligated to pay assessments (mandatory) or not (voluntary). If the assn is mandatory, the CCRs are enforced against the members by the BOD and can also be enforced against the non-members. When no mandatory HOA exists, the CCRs are enforced by each individual property owner.

I thought the problem we were discussing is what vote % is required to change a voluntary assn into a mandatory one. The only issue with this change is whether or not the property owners will be subject to paying assessments. The deed restrictions already imposed upon their property will not change.

The "grandfather clause" to which you speak, means those members who chose not to vote for the mandatory assn, may continue to remain voluntary, meaning they will not be obligated to pay assessments, therefore the automatic lien has no bearing on them. However, the HOA can enforce all the other deed restrictions on them the same as they can be enforced on all the members who've agreed to the mandatory assn. But, the only deed restrictions they are subject to are those which were contained in the original CCRs that were in effect when they purchased their property. The members who remain "voluntary" would not have any voting rights as that comes with being a member of the mandatory HOA. Actually a voluntary assn no longer exists as it has been replaced with a mandatory assn.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Don has posted the opinion of the Supreme Court of Nebraska, which in effect states a 100% vote is required to change from a voluntary to a mandatory assn. Mary from VA posted info awhile back that the Supreme Court of VA ruled the same way. The newspaper article about the Kensington case from Naples, FL (posted by Don)went on to say FL courts have overturned several cases because a 100% vote was not obtained. All these cases reinforce my thoughts that "this is a matter that can only be resolved in a court of law." I think we all agree that any attorney who works with a voluntary assn to change to mandatory only do so for the money or because that's what the BOD wants. I know of no state that has a law describing the process to be undertaken. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong about this! It's not uncommon for the attorney to advise the BOD that the requirement is the same as the requirement to amend the CCRs. Not all assn's will decide to grandfather those who vote against the change. Instead, if the required % is attained, then all the property owners become members of the assn. It's these assn's that court cases challenging the validity of the vote stem from.

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