A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
← Return to Topics List

petition

Started by BarbaraD6 • 41 replies • 2470 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Some of my neighbors are starting a petition to remove management. Can I as a board member sign a petition? I don't see anything about petitions in our governing docs or florida law.
Barbara
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Please anybody some input. I want to make sure its not a conflict of interest of anything
Barbara
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Barbara,

Your neighbors will need to present the petition to remove the management company to the Board. The Board and only the Board has the authority to hire and fire any vendors or companys that work for the association. Therefore, you as a Board member will vote to keep or remove the M.C. You should NOT sign the petition as you will be voting as a Board member. (Sorry that I took so long. Getting ready for a trip on Thurs.)

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:


Just so the non Florida posters know what the Florida Statutes say. If 20% of the members, by petition, the Board must address the issue

720:303 (2) (d) " If 20 percent of the total voting interests petition the board to address an item of business, the board shall at its next regular board meeting or at a special meeting of the board, but not later than 60 days after the receipt of the petition, take the petitioned item up on an agenda. The board shall give all members notice of the meeting at which the petitioned item shall be addressed in accordance with the 14-day notice requirement pursuant to subparagraph (c)2. Each member shall have the right to speak for at least 3 minutes on each matter placed on the agenda by petition, provided that the member signs the sign-up sheet, if one is provided, or submits a written request to speak prior to the meeting. Other than addressing the petitioned item at the meeting, the board is not obligated to take any other action requested by the petition."

BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Thanks,but in our governing docs the membership has the power "the association may not terminate any management contract or retain a new managing agent without the approval of members representing a majority of the associations class "a" votes". That's one of the reasons that the membership is upset,they were denied their rights. I was a homeowner when this violation occured. Do you see anything else can could possibly be a problem?
Barbara
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Barbara---if the wording you typed is correct---I'm confused. Most documents refer to the Board as the "Association". Members are simply members---not Board members. Donna is correct. I've NEVER seen documents where EVERYONE in the Association gets a say as to what contracts or business agreements are entered in to. Only Board members get a say. That's what they're "hired" (volunteer) to do.
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Also, what are "class A" votes? I've never seen that term used before. Any other information you could give us would be move useful!
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
MOST useful. Duh. Long day at work. Excuse me.
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Anna,
Defined Terms
"association"- xxx homeowners association,inc,a florida not-for-profit corporation,its successors or assigns

"board of directord" or "board"- the body responsible for the general governance and administration of the association,selected as provided in the by-laws

"member"- a person subject to membership in the association,as described in section 6.2(the association initially shall have two classes of membership, class'A" and class "B". Class "A" members are all owners except the class "B" member. The sole class "B" member shall be declarant. The class 'B" membership shall terminate upon the earlier of (i)upon the converyance of 75% of lots to homeowners other than declarant (ii)7 yrs from the date the declaratins is recorded,or(iii)if the class "B" member min its discretion,so determines.
Barbara
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
You ALWAYS have rights as a member, board member or not. Signing a petition should not be in conflict with your role as a board member.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Barbara,

Forget the paragraphs above that you posted. That is merely a description of members class. Since you have had turnover from the Developer, all members are class A.

" board of directors" or "board"- the body responsible for the general governance and administration of the association,selected as provided in the by-laws . This means that the Board hires and fires so that conflicts with part that says the membership is responsible.

I still am confused because of lack of information from you. Why are the members passing a petition? To remove management company or to force the Board to remove the M.C? Big difference here.

According to what your documents read, it is the membership that must remove the M.C? That is highly unusual for the members to have that responsibility.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
You didn't sign anything away when you became a Board member. You have every right to sign this or any other petition. It would count as one signature the same as any other.

If you are talking about getting rid of professional management, then I would highly recommend you look through your mortgage papers though. It is pretty standard in Texas to sign a rider when there is a managed HOA. The rider could leave you open to foreclosure if you sign on to eliminate management.

Now this might be the best time to do this as banks are probably less likely then ever to foreclose on a unit over something like this if all else is in order. But...
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Donna,
The are doing a petition because they need a majority of members to fire this manager. 1-They were denied their right to vote for a new manager 2- he is not doing a good job for our community. We are not getting rid of management, just picking a new one. I see you also understand our docs give the members the right to hire or fire managers.
Barbara
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Kirk,
They want to fire the one we have and vote to hire another one.
Barbara
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Donna,
Since the bylaws were violated, is this managers contract even valid? Some members don't think so. So they are going to follow the by-laws and get him fired. He has a 2yr contract that started April 2009, so can he sue the association for firing him before his contract is up? IT'S A BIG MESS,but the law was violated.
Barbara
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Barbara,

Do your gov docs say anything about contracts. The fact that the terms of the bylaws were violated when the PM was hired, may not erase the BOD's obligation to uphold the terms of the contract. If he is being terminated w/o cause (meaning he did nothing wrong!), then the assn may have to pay the remainder of the contract or whatever the fine is for terminating b/4 the contract period is up. The members should be made aware of this and told how much the fine might be b/4 they demand his termination and ask for a vote to hire a new PM.
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Mary,
I'm glad you pointed that out to me. The only thing the gove doc say about contracts is that, the association has the right to enter into a contract. IT does appear that manager (besides violating gove doc and florida law) he has violated his own contract.
Barbara
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Barbara,
I see down the line with Susan. A Board vote is not a member vote....period. Otherwise the Board could not hire and fire the employees; hire and fire is by Board vote, not member vote. The Board can not vote as a Board member in a general vote, because only owners can vote in a general vote, and there is one vote one unit. If I was on this board and someone said I can't vote in ANY general roll call vote or majority vote or any other kind of membership (general) vote, I would vote anyway. That is crazy, it means that my unit in the association can not speak........no way.
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Robert,
Our docs give the members the right to hire and fire a manager,add or remove money from reserve accounts,changing amendmensts,and of course to remove and vote for board members. The board votes on everything else.Thanks for your input
Barbara
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Barbara,

The management company may not be successful IF it decides to sue. Can you prove that the company breached the contract?
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Ellen,
Yes,we can. There have been several situations in which laws have been violated. He took action on issues with the word of 2 board members(not a vote and certainly not a majority). He didn't get prior approval when he spent money over the amount that is listed in his contract,etc. He uses the boards responsibility to "act as fiduciaries", to justify breaking the law.
thanks
Barbara
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Barbara,
I thank you for your concise answer. I stand corrected and should have learned by now I should never say never. I am glad it got corrected by you, and I thank you for it. You sound like a cool cat.
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Robert,
Thank you for your input, the more the better!
Barbara
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Barbara, If the management company has breached their contract to you and you can prove it with written votes or whatever I'd tell them to take their best shot at suing you and get another management company. These threats of a lawsuit are rather silly..let them put their money where their mouth is. I would also let them know that they are being reported to DPR. If what they have done is serious enough they mnay have their license revoked.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Barbara,
With your requirement that the members hire and fire the Manager or Management, and it comes to pass and there is a law suit to contend with, how are these charge made and who gets served the papers. Who sues who? Has this ever happened before in your association? Is the BOD responsible snd has to act for the Members, and of course the BOD are also members first and foremost. What webs you mortals weave.
Tell us how this is done.
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Robert.
This is new ground for all of us. We hope he will resign when we discuss it with his boss and our attorney. We can't file a lawsuit as we have no money and of course the manager knows that.
Barbara
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Barbara,
Now we have a Management co and the manager and the manager works for the Management co. Then he is not under the gun from the owners he is under the gun from the Management Co. It sounds you are going to the right place with your demands, and I would consider them demands. You all do not have to pay the management Co. But I am afraid next we will hear you are under a contract and can't fire your management co. In any case, do not go to this meeting hat in hand, got with what you want to get done. Of course your attorney may have several options but I suspect they are all going to cost money and you will be stuck until the Management Co. contract is up. I am assuming a lot here. So what do you do? How many people can you muster for a public demonstration? Enough to get the local papers and TV interested? You have the right to hold peaceful assembly and talk about what you want, have you laid out your accusations to the owners at a Town Hall? Have you contact your LOCAL representatives. How many voters can you muster. Get the answers to these questions and if your Management Co knows you don't have any money they will also know your strengths and your conviction. What does you lawyer say? Has he been of any help? Put some people pressure on these people. That pretty much leads you back to Ellen's last post.
JoeK4 (Texas)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Do not fire the management....I have been in that situation and if this manager decides to sue I guarantee you will have to have some serious proof of some serious wrongdoing, not just this he overspent, other wise the judge will consider you just nit-picking at a man trying to make a living and from what I read so far it does sound like a bunch of nitpicking nonsense that a judge will rule in the managers favor, enter a judgement that you and your nitpicking board can never pay, so yes vote, vote yourself right out of existence along with your HOA..........bye bye.......cya
PS what did this guy overspend on, a shovel, sounds like he needs one to shovel the _ _ _ _ out of the board room!!!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Joe,
I think you are taking a quantum leap here Joe. First you are assuming these folks don't know what they are doing and that is always risky. They have a lawyer and from what I read have not done anything yet and are just planning their future. You state you have been there, and fired your management, I suppose for cause. You got caught in a hard place and the judge decided your case had no merit. That happens, but it don't happen routinely and it is not happening here, that I can see. I suspect they have a contract and Lord knows what is in that. The strange part in all this is the owners and not the Board have to do the hiring and firing. To me, this may be a bigger problem than the management. Be that as it may, associations should be very careful what they get themselves into when the hire or maybe assume a contract with a management company that is passed on by the developer, especially. But bottom line there is a employee/employer relationship here and the employer has the right to see his money is being spent in an approved fashion. Should the management be changed because they are buying too many pencils.....probably not. But you can, as the employer require them to buy only so many pencils. I firmly believe the best relationship between management and association is a strictly business relationship, as such, you can avoid some pitfalls of mis-management and bad managers. It is also possible to have a bad manager and a good Management Co. It is probably not possible to have a bad management Co and a good manager. But these folks are looking for options, not marching orders.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
In my opinion this sounds like a real mess.

So the owners get to pick and hire a MC?
And whose name is signed on the contract? The unit owners?

I would think someone needs to sign the contract just who would that be?

Just what I would want to have the unit owners picking the MC when they have little if any knowledge of what makes an MC desirable.

Who voted the Board in? And then THEY hired the MC but we now want the unit owners to interview and do a search for their choice. Sounds like a sure fire recipe for trouble.

Does a contract exist today between the BOARD and the MC? Then how does the ownership now get to fire someone without cause?

I hope someone reads the contract very carefully BEFORE any rash decisions are made because you might in the end be paying for 2 MCs for the remaionder of the current contract.

Sometimes, people allow themselves to believe that the ONLY solution to their percieved problems is replacing someone. Get a new MC, recall the Board, pick someone who will do as I say and do as I want. Yes, I would like to know what terrible,illegal actions and state laws this PM has committed.

Allowing the unit owners or members to have the ability to hire and fire the MC (if this is in fact the case) is in my opinion a mistake.

Should be real interesting to see if successful who this group of owners decide to bring on as their new and improved MC and how long their job is satisfactory.
The grass is always greener on the other side till you get there.

Fire people, hire a lawyer(waste more money) and set yourself up for a court date, now that's a plan..............
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Jon,
I agree with your observations of this HOA. I have never seen in documents where the membership hires and fires employees of the association. That is the reason that we have elected Board members. It is their responsibility to maintain the association thru contracts and employees, not the memberships. Tell me how you could find a large assoc. functing this way? How would a consensus ever be obtained?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
All,
Correct me if I am wrong. Way back in this post we questioned this business about the members having the right to hire and fire. I just finished reading those posts. Was there not a consensus reached, from the posting Barbara made that, indeed, her documents did say hiring and firing was an owners responsibility?

Now if this was not accepted, we should have stated so categorically and said she would have to get the members to go thru the Board.

I really don't have a clue other than to say to her be careful, but this is a group decision they are making or trying to make and from what has been posed by this thread now is some kind of disaster if they sue.
Also, I hope Barbara comes on and clears up some of this as it is also evident the more this subject continues the more fault is found in the premise that seemed to be accepted when the post started. If fact Barabara made a comment that she was glad a poster had seen her way to agree that the members had the right to hire and fire. I know from what was posted I apologized to Barbara because my post was out of line if her documents, as stated, were correct.

It is also ok to just ignore this whole narrative I am making and go on from here, or not.
DeirdreN (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Barbara, this is my first post on this forum though I have been "lurking" for a while. We have a condo in Florida with a corrupt CAM as well, so I have been doing research. Correct me if I am wrong: it appears that your condo bylaws say that a management company can be hired/fired only by majority vote of homeowners. There are many cases in which a majority vote is needed, ie, waiving financial requirements or altering the appearance of the condo, so this sounds like something along those lines. Are you saying that no special meeting was called, and no vote was put to the homeowners to approve the hiring of this CAM?

CAMS are licensed professionals and under Florida law must operate under a very specific code. Your first step would be to get on the DPR's website and see what violations this CAM has committed under the code of conduct. Then go through the Florida statutes 718 to see what violations the CAM has committed. Then go through your condo's bylaws to see what violations he has committed. You must build up a very solid case of facts and back them up with specific incidences of violations.

I would then suggest printing out the complaint form against a CAM from the DPR website, and have any interested homeowners sign it. th en send it in. The Office of the Florida Condo Ombudsman will investigate, and if the case against the CAM is solid, he could face having his license revoked.
JoeK4 (Texas)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Hello Barbara, have you left the building, you started off with saying your NEIGHBORS, whatever that means, started a petition to fire a worker for a managment co for breaking some law about over-spending, in addition you say a member, not a neighbor told you, you being a board member could not sign a petition started by neighbors to fire a maintenence worker for a management company. Just call the management company and tell them that you as a board member acting upon a petition by your neighbors, disputed by a member, but not you as a board member, now I have confused myself, I quit drinking but I think I need a shot of Grey Goose Vodka....Now one other thing dont believe the lawyer, he will tell you anything to start a lawsuit, which he will then defend, but no matter, the judge will rule in favor of the poor worker, just trying to do his job for some very ungrateful neighbors, trying to petition a very bored board member and I think I need to get a life since I have nothing better to do than try to start some trouble with everyone. By the way, I am the worker for the managment company.............just kidding, will someone bring me another shot of grey goose.!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks......God Bless all.........
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Joe,
I am confused as to how you thought it was a maintenance worker. My neighbors are the members of our HOA. They want to fire "the manager".(numerous reasons) The question was can a board member sign a petition.
Barbara
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Deirdre,
I agree with everything you said. We are townhouses not condos,so we follow florida statute 720. Thans for your info
Barbara
DebraP1 (California)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Of course you can sign a petition, but make sure it has exactly what you are complaining for on that petition with a date. Without a complaint or date it is not a valid petition.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To all.
Maybe this would be a good place to suggest that when posting we try to be definitive about Managers. You can have a private manager the is a sense runs his own company, you can have a Private manager that has a company and he could manage more then I place, or you can have a P/M that works for a larger concern and is assigned particilar associations to manange by still wotks for the Management company. And I am sure there are more variations.

Point being, if we know exactly the capacity of the individual or the structure of the managment company we can refine our answers better. I have a feeling that, in total, most are self managed (By BOD), then comes a private individual that just happens to see an advert or more than likely passed down from friend to friends. I think we can say the trend is to go to someone licensed. I also suspect some states do not have "Licensed Managers", CAI credentials those meeting certain requirements, I understand some states are taking steps to require Licensed managers.

A lot of this stuff is unknopwn to me. Does anyone have a good overview of this problem? Is there credited college Classes resulting in a degree.??????????????????????????????????
DeirdreN (Florida)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Robert, I can speak only for the state of Florida. In Florida statute 718.3025, "Agreements for operation, maintenance, or management of condominiums; specific requirements" it is all laid out very clearly what the obligations of a condo manager are in terms of the validity of his/her contract. If the homeowners of Barbara's condo go through the statutes and the Florida administrative code, they will undoubtedly find plenty of "ammunition" to rid themselves of their unsatisfactory manager, and do so in a way that is legal and not financially harmful to the association. A phone call or two to the Florida Ombudsman and the DPR will get them on the right path. I've found both of these state offices very helpful.

Also, Florida requires by state law that any association larger than 10 units be managed by a licensed CAM who must have continuing education in order to renew his/her license.

I suspect that many other states have similar laws in regard to condo managers. It's just a matter of find out what they are and that's easily done by a little bit of legwork.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Deidre,
An interesting reply. For the most part it seems to be contra to what we read here on this site about Florida. Understand that what comes a cross this board is non-selective and any conclusions derived by counting the pros an cons could be highly biased. However, in general the Florida Statutes are considered be in shambles by many, as are the statues and enforcement of many state statutes. I am just giving you my read on what passes through this site. Certainly your notation that the DPRB has been helpful has never been proposed before. Likewise the Ombudsman office.
This particular post presents a situation where the P/M actually locked the doors to a community building owned by the members of this association and would not allow the members to have a public meeting.
It is very interesting that you seem to look upon the states provisions favorably and suggest that solutions can be found if a little bit of legwork would be applied. I live in SC and I think I can say that any legwork I have done, and it is considerable, leads me to believe this whole HOA situation is flawed from the inception when the first lawyer wrote the first set of covenants to protect the developer instead of inprowering the members with the authority to enforce the covenants. All this, of course, is but a personal conclusion and subject to all and any outside contributuions. Hence the reason for my initial post on this subject. Do you think that there is anything special you all have done that would contribute to a more favorable response from the Ombudsman or the DPRB programs .
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Deirdre,
HOA's don't have an ombudsman.Most of the things you are pointing me to have to do with condos,HOA's. Appreciate all your responses
Barbara
BarbaraD6 (Florida)
Posts: 347
Posted:
Robert,
Please start a new thread on this subject(managers). It would be a good discussion
thanks
Barbara

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here

Terms of Use and Privacy Statement