How is it that Board Members DO NOT KNOW what laws, rules and cc&r's regulate them?

Started by FrancescaM • 18 replies • 1396 views

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FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

I mentioned that before that apathy rules in every HOA. However, every year when the board runs at our own HOA, if we are lucky maybe one or two newbies get elected on board and are the greenies of the group. I would not expect them to know the ins and outs of the law. I unfortunately was a greenie a while ago, and it was an eye opening experience.

I am concerned in our HOA as many long timers on the board ( 50% ) to be exact just do not have a clue how rules, regs cc&r and in California it was the Davis Sterling Act that we had to follow. Just today after over a month of not hearing from a board member we all got a scathing email teling us he is asking for an emergency meeting because "I don't support the current budget". This budgee and HOA dues increase was voted on and passed over 3 weeks ago in an open forum meeting. ( which he did NOT attend)

This gentleman for example had lived in our current complex 25 years. Has served on the board and actually thinks because he doesn't approve of the current budge that it would warrant an emergency meeting... ( that is not how it works) yet, he has been on and off the board.. for 20 out of the 25 years he has owned here.

I feel that if I have to attend annual seminars, educate myself and read our cc&rs that it isn't unrealistic for me to hold the other old timers to the same expectation....

In regard to the above incident... we had to remind the MIA that this was voted on already, passed and that he needs to read our governing documents and follow the process if he wishes to have his concerns addressed as a homeowner. He was missing after all of for over a month, missed that last meeting, didn't attend the last special budget meeting we had... it's all in the minutes.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrancescaM on 02/05/2009 5:36 PM
I mentioned that before that apathy rules in every HOA. However, every year when the board runs at our own HOA, if we are lucky maybe one or two newbies get elected on board and are the greenies of the group. I would not expect them to know the ins and outs of the law. I unfortunately was a greenie a while ago, and it was an eye opening experience.

I am concerned in our HOA as many long timers on the board ( 50% ) to be exact just do not have a clue how rules, regs cc&r and in California it was the Davis Sterling Act that we had to follow. Just today after over a month of not hearing from a board member we all got a scathing email teling us he is asking for an emergency meeting because "I don't support the current budget". This budgee and HOA dues increase was voted on and passed over 3 weeks ago in an open forum meeting. ( which he did NOT attend)

This gentleman for example had lived in our current complex 25 years. Has served on the board and actually thinks because he doesn't approve of the current budge that it would warrant an emergency meeting... ( that is not how it works) yet, he has been on and off the board.. for 20 out of the 25 years he has owned here.

I feel that if I have to attend annual seminars, educate myself and read our cc&rs that it isn't unrealistic for me to hold the other old timers to the same expectation....

In regard to the above incident... we had to remind the MIA that this was voted on already, passed and that he needs to read our governing documents and follow the process if he wishes to have his concerns addressed as a homeowner. He was missing after all of for over a month, missed that last meeting, didn't attend the last special budget meeting we had... it's all in the minutes.

I truely didn't mean to ramble on here, I am just wondering if others have issues with board members being aloof to the laws, process and what do you do to help them along?

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

Yes, and they are called dead wood.

Work to find a replacement for the next election.

He's making a fool of himself, and just has not realized it yet.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 02/05/2009 5:44 PM
Yes, and they are called dead wood.

Work to find a replacement for the next election.

He's making a fool of himself, and just has not realized it yet.

I love the term.. "dead wood". If I could give points for the best response that is it I think!

LynetteB (Texas)
Posts: 141

Posted:

Our board has members who I believe have never read any of our docs. They get elected, but I will never figure out why. While I wait for their terms to expire and hope they don't run again or that they don't get re-elected if they do, I guess I will look in to a way to make some type of Board member classes mandatory for all of us. (Another thing I still need to research in our area.)
Good Luck!

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LynetteB on 02/05/2009 9:40 PM
Our board has members who I believe have never read any of our docs. They get elected, but I will never figure out why. While I wait for their terms to expire and hope they don't run again or that they don't get re-elected if they do, I guess I will look in to a way to make some type of Board member classes mandatory for all of us. (Another thing I still need to research in our area.)
Good Luck!

I find it most difficult and time consuming when old timer board members think they can just "insist on an emergency meeting" because they haven't been around for over a month and our budget has been approved, along with a 10% increase in dues. It's ludicrus that this person has been on the board as long as he has been and we often have to cite our local docs, regs, cc&r's in open session when he is "trying to feel empowered" but really in the end looks like anything but.

EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148

Posted:

Francesca,

It is inconceivable that someone who has been on and off the board for 20 years doesn't have a clue about the cc&rs. In addition a board member should attend all board meetings unless they have an emergency. Our docs state that if a board member misses 3 consecutive meetings that person is no longer on the board. I know what you mean about apathy but it looks like it is high time to get some more greenies to volunteer. Perhaps if you passed the word that this board member didn't care enough about how their assessments were spent to attend the special budget meeting they may be willing to join in. When owners find out that "their" monies are not important enough for this board member to come to meetings they may be inclined to be on the board.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EllenS1 on 02/06/2009 3:43 PM
Francesca,

It is inconceivable that someone who has been on and off the board for 20 years doesn't have a clue about the cc&rs. In addition a board member should attend all board meetings unless they have an emergency. Our docs state that if a board member misses 3 consecutive meetings that person is no longer on the board. I know what you mean about apathy but it looks like it is high time to get some more greenies to volunteer. Perhaps if you passed the word that this board member didn't care enough about how their assessments were spent to attend the special budget meeting they may be willing to join in. When owners find out that "their" monies are not important enough for this board member to come to meetings they may be inclined to be on the board.

I am not one to talk about other board members to homeowners' but with saying that our elections are coming up in a couple of months. I plan on running again and last year I did flyers and went door to door with them, I know many HO's who have lived here long enough know how the above board member is. Overall he doesn't have a great reputation of being "nice" to people and more or less a know it all. Perhaps due to the fact that for 30+ plus years his own work arena allowed him to be "king of the castle" " a know it all" and better yet.. "able to tell a group of individuals what to do with minimal backlash.. lol... this guy is a retired elementary school teacher...

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Francesca,

I think that it is about time that the members challenge him, put him in his place and move on. Knowing the documents and pertaining State HOA laws is a great way to do that. Be smarter than he is about the HOA. And do the footwork by doing face to faces with the members. Believe it or not, they will listen to solid information, not finger pointing and he said, she said stuff. Best of luck to you.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonnaS on 02/07/2009 7:38 AM

Francesca,

I think that it is about time that the members challenge him, put him in his place and move on. Knowing the documents and pertaining State HOA laws is a great way to do that. Be smarter than he is about the HOA. And do the footwork by doing face to faces with the members. Believe it or not, they will listen to solid information, not finger pointing and he said, she said stuff. Best of luck to you.

Thanks Donna,

You are very right about this one. I myself really feel that dead wood as sonmeone called him is needing to change. Personally it's really emabrassing to have hime attemd the majority of meetings anyway. It' really really clear to most that this man very rarely goes along with the baord majority and he loves to banter, argue and even say.. I won't support that.. etc. I will take your suggestions and apply them. Thank you !!

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Francesca,

I went to a Management Physcology forum once and the one thing that stuck with me to this day was --" YOU CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLE'S PERSONALITIES. All THAT YOU CAN DO IS TO CHANGE HOW YOU HANDLE AND DEAL WITH THEM".

TamaraW (Ohio)
Posts: 193

Posted:

Nobody on our Board knows the governing documents. Our newer PM does not even know. Nobody in our Community even cares to read them. Well, almost nobody. We just did an addendum to our guidelines which allowed home owners an addition of hot tubs to their properties. I spoke with many people just in passing, nobody knew. ??

This can really overwhelm a Board and as Board President everyone continually depending on me to set the way and be clear on the governing documents. They did not think to sit and learn them themselves. Even after much encouragement from me. So I stepped down as President. That is how I handled it.

I have a Board member next door to me who continuously violates my yard, has even stolen a table. After much of me trying to resolve with her that that is my yard meant for my exclusive use and her refusal to respect it, I had to request a violation letter go out to her. I was told it was not a violation by the Board, I had to send them the Declaration that shows it is a violation to get a letter sent out to them. Then, because this neighbor is tit-for-tat, she scribbled down (at the board meeting before she was asked to leave so they could discuss her violation)that I violated the same thing (which I did, but only upon her calling me to her yard to speak with me about her violating my yard and was never asked to leave). Then guess what, I get a violation letter. ???

It should be mandatory to get on the Board that people can at least answer 10 questions that pertain to the governing documents. But then I guess HOA's would have an even harder time getting people to sit on the Board.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TamaraW on 02/08/2009 11:16 AM
Nobody on our Board knows the governing documents. Our newer PM does not even know. Nobody in our Community even cares to read them. Well, almost nobody. We just did an addendum to our guidelines which allowed home owners an addition of hot tubs to their properties. I spoke with many people just in passing, nobody knew. ??

This can really overwhelm a Board and as Board President everyone continually depending on me to set the way and be clear on the governing documents. They did not think to sit and learn them themselves. Even after much encouragement from me. So I stepped down as President. That is how I handled it.

I have a Board member next door to me who continuously violates my yard, has even stolen a table. After much of me trying to resolve with her that that is my yard meant for my exclusive use and her refusal to respect it, I had to request a violation letter go out to her. I was told it was not a violation by the Board, I had to send them the Declaration that shows it is a violation to get a letter sent out to them. Then, because this neighbor is tit-for-tat, she scribbled down (at the board meeting before she was asked to leave so they could discuss her violation)that I violated the same thing (which I did, but only upon her calling me to her yard to speak with me about her violating my yard and was never asked to leave). Then guess what, I get a violation letter. ???

It should be mandatory to get on the Board that people can at least answer 10 questions that pertain to the governing documents. But then I guess HOA's would have an even harder time getting people to sit on the Board.

Well, our board on a whole majority does not know what our documents say... but it's changing a little by little. Nothing like telling a board member in open forum that his comments or actions are not supported by our cc&r.s. This action is a very very common occurance at our meetings. Members can see the old timer is not up to speed on the basic laws that govern us.

SusanK5 (Utah)
Posts: 30

Posted:

We had board members resign and so in their stead our board is putting a person on the board who is not even a homeowner. They think this will work because she will be a non-voting member. Besides not being a homeowner they will only have 6 voting members. Someone contacted them and explained the CC&Rs to them and they said they just wanted to have everyone in the community represented. I am apalled that non-homeowners would even be considered. I am so upset that I am considering sueing them. I think they could be personally responsible since they are not fulfilling their fiduciary responsibility to our community. Does anyone have any ideas on this since they ignore being reminded they have to follow the CC&Rs????

JosephineK (Virginia)
Posts: 9

Posted:

My sympathies, Francesca, because we are encountering the same thing here in VA on the Board that I'm on. I and another Board member were encouraged to run for the Board because prior Board members were concerned that the Board (regardless of composition) was not following the laws and governing documents, and both I and the other Board member are lawyers who also have HOA Board experience, although neither of us have HOA practices. Yet, the attitude of our President and his cronies are that "we've done very nicely without you for the last 18-19 years" and we are labeled as "nitpickers".

Hang in there. Be firm and persuasive, and be prepared to cite chapter and verse every time the others on the Board try to do something they're not supposed to, or fail to do something they should.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanK5 on 02/15/2009 6:51 AM
We had board members resign and so in their stead our board is putting a person on the board who is not even a homeowner. They think this will work because she will be a non-voting member. Besides not being a homeowner they will only have 6 voting members. Someone contacted them and explained the CC&Rs to them and they said they just wanted to have everyone in the community represented. I am apalled that non-homeowners would even be considered. I am so upset that I am considering sueing them. I think they could be personally responsible since they are not fulfilling their fiduciary responsibility to our community. Does anyone have any ideas on this since they ignore being reminded they have to follow the CC&Rs????

Susan does the CC&R's (Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions) require someone to be an H/O or live in the community to serve on the BOD? If not then the appointment was probably valid? Before using the S word (sue) I would draft a polite letter of inquiry to the BOD asking them why they did this. Maybe if they know of your interest in your community they will ask you to serve.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JosephineK on 02/15/2009 8:05 AM
My sympathies, Francesca, because we are encountering the same thing here in VA on the Board that I'm on. I and another Board member were encouraged to run for the Board because prior Board members were concerned that the Board (regardless of composition) was not following the laws and governing documents, and both I and the other Board member are lawyers who also have HOA Board experience, although neither of us have HOA practices. Yet, the attitude of our President and his cronies are that "we've done very nicely without you for the last 18-19 years" and we are labeled as "nitpickers".

Hang in there. Be firm and persuasive, and be prepared to cite chapter and verse every time the others on the Board try to do something they're not supposed to, or fail to do something they should.

Joesphine if I could award points to you I would. You definately feel my stressors. I am not the President of our HOA, but the one that is very much aware of this. Literally every time we have an issue with the ignorant board member we must read to him from our Civil codes, docs etc. It's to the point our President brings her handbook to all meetings. It's sad, but true just our last meeting the old timer openly told her that she is making a mountain out of a mole hill and that we should do things.. xyz way. She read to him the civil code he was suggesting going against and a homeowner boasted to the old timer.. "are you asking them to break the law!?" I know the HO spoke out of turn but it wasn't more welcomed. I had to have to cite things to an ignorant ( without knowlege) board member for every decision, but I think the other board members are getting wary of him, and the HO's obviously are seeing how much he doesn't really know.... it's frankly quite scarey to some.

None the less.. lets hope the old man gets voted off with the annual coming up.

SusanK5 (Utah)
Posts: 30

Posted:

Hi Glen...yes our CC&Rs specifically define what an owner is(the person listed on the county records) and it defines may(permissive) and shall(mandatory)then it says that the management committee shall be made up of at least 3 owners. The polite inquiry has gone out..one of the board members inquired as to how they could have someone on the board who is not an owner and even cited the places in the CC&Rs where it says who can be on the board and their answer to her was they wanted everyone to be represented. As an owner who has actually invested money into my condo I resent the fact that they think that someone who lives here and is not an owner should have a voice. If you live in or rent someones condo then you should go to the owner and let them know your concerns if you have them. Basically the new board doesn't think they have to follow the CC&Rs. If I sound upset it is because I am...not at you because I appreciate your taking the time to reply. I am really upset with their idea of putting this non owner on the board. Anyway, it is my understanding that if you are honestly trying to do what you are supposed to and make a mistake the insurance would cover something like this...however when you knowingly do something you know is against the CC&Rs then you are personally liable. Is this your understanding of the situation? Thanks again for taking the time to reply...I appreciate that.
Susan

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Susan I'm not sure whether or not the D&O insurance would cover them or not, maybe a letter of inquiry to the insurance carrier would resolve it. In the mean time it might be in the communities best interest to call a special meeting to remove this director, the process should be in the CC&R's

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

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