Inadequate HOA Fire hydrants??

Started by SusanW1 • 29 replies • 3110 views

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SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

This should be interesting . . .

Our HOA is responsible for providing water to over 225 homes. This includes the maintenance and care of all fire hydrants throughout the sub.

Last Wed. nite, there was a fire in a 3,000 - 3 story home. The township fire department came and claimed that they could not use our fire hydrants. They said the pressure was "inadequate" and had to bring in huge tankers from other municipalities to supplement their efforts. There was massive damage to the house. Who knows what part the "inadequate" water pressure played on the damage.

As a member, I was concerned that the HOA fire hydrants are not adequate to provide proper protection of my home. I registered this concern at a meeting over 3 months ago and was assured that the fire dept. knew about our situation (low pressure).

At that time, I said I felt it was a lawsuit in the making. Hopefully, I am wrong. Local newspapers are having a ball with this.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Yikes!!

How does one re-pressurize a fire hydrant or the hydrant lines??

If the fire department "knew" about the problem, it strikes me as odd they would not have recommended a solution.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Interesting, indeed! Check this out

[url=http://www.craigdailypress.com/news/2007/jun/13/private_fire_hydrants/?print]Private fire hydrants studied after homeowners' concern[url]

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

CORRECT LINK:
www.craigdailypress.com/news/2007/jun/13/private_fire_hydrants

So what part of shoddy non code compliant construction do we not understand?

Did the HOs pay for their home(s)? Evidently the construction was satisfactory!

In the USA the motto is CAVEAT EMPTOROR (sic).

Who cares if fires can't be adequately be fought as long as the investors/builders make more money.

The owner of the 'totalled' house should take appropriate action against the builder/designer/inspector/seller........................try contacting the law firm of Smith and Wesson...........................

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 01/02/2009 6:11 AM
Yikes!!

How does one re-pressurize a fire hydrant or the hydrant lines??

If the fire department "knew" about the problem, it strikes me as odd they would not have recommended a solution.

You can't. You need to reinstall properly sized water mains. A fire hydrant requires a 4-6" main with at least 40psi pressure.

Now you know why cities are built.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Susan,

I'm curious to know why the HOA is resp. for the fire hydrants. I would think this would be a city resp.

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 01/02/2009 5:53 AM
This should be interesting . . .

Our HOA is responsible for providing water to over 225 homes. This includes the maintenance and care of all fire hydrants throughout the sub.

Last Wed. nite, there was a fire in a 3,000 - 3 story home. The township fire department came and claimed that they could not use our fire hydrants. They said the pressure was "inadequate" and had to bring in huge tankers from other municipalities to supplement their efforts. There was massive damage to the house. Who knows what part the "inadequate" water pressure played on the damage.

As a member, I was concerned that the HOA fire hydrants are not adequate to provide proper protection of my home. I registered this concern at a meeting over 3 months ago and was assured that the fire dept. knew about our situation (low pressure).

At that time, I said I felt it was a lawsuit in the making. Hopefully, I am wrong. Local newspapers are having a ball with this.

If the HOA knows about the problem and someone should die as a result of the problem it may become a criminal negligence issue. The board is not shielded from KNOWINGLY negligent acts.

The board must take immediate action.

The board needs an immediate professional engineers report and a 'spec sheet' to give contractors for bidding purposes.

However, in the USA, no one is responsible for anything so the heads can return to the sand.

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

We have ONE hydrant in our two-building complex. WE are responsible for the hydrant. Once per year we have to have it inspected and we are responsible for giving the inspection report to the local Fire Department.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

This is just amazing.

One of the key priorities when my husband and I look for lots is "How close to the fire hydrant is it?"

Our current home has one just to the right of our driveway.

I would be shocked and dismayed if we discovered it was useless!

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 01/02/2009 12:00 PM
This is just amazing.

One of the key priorities when my husband and I look for lots is "How close to the fire hydrant is it?"

Our current home has one just to the right of our driveway.

I would be shocked and dismayed if we discovered it was useless!

Welcome to the land of opportunity ............. for the contractors.
Check with your local Fire Dept. and request an inspection or certification.
Good luck.

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

Read It And Weep:

(some samples from typical building codes)

Water mains and hydrants shall meet American Water Works Standards.
6" water main minimum.

Generally speaking, water supply systems in residential areas should be designed to deliver no less than 1000 GPM (3785 L/min) at each individual hydrant.

Standard Hydrant: Hydrant with one four (4) or four and one half (4-1/2) inch
steamer connection and double two and one half (2-1/2) inch outlets. Hydrant
shall be fed by a minimum six (6) inch line. May be either wet or dry
barrel type.

Hydrant Supply Piping:
Wharf hydrants: Supply piping shall be of a minimum size of 4 inches. Height of risers for Wharf Hydrants shall be a minimum of 24 inches and a maximum of 48 inches. Riser minimum pipe diameter shall be 4 inches. All supply piping shall be buried except for Wharf Hydrant riser piping.

Standard hydrant:
Supply piping shall be of a minimum size of 6 inches.

Riser and riser elbow shall be steel. Buried horizontal piping runs may be of an approved plastic pipe.

Concrete thrust blocks sized in accordance with national standards shall be provided at all changes in pipe direction.

IMO: most homes in most HOA subdivisions are actually unfit for human occupation - in order to get a Certificate of Suitability for Occupation they must meet MINIMUM code requirements - since most don't actually meet code ..................................................

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

I was mentioning this to my husband -- many years ago he was a volunteer fireman. He said they would periodically check all the fire hydrants and report those with low or no pressure to the city. It's not uncommon for a hydrant to have low pressurs; it all depends upon how close to it is to a pumping station or water treatment plant. So even if there is a fire hydrant across the street from you home, if the pressure is low your fire protection is compromised. IMO, this would be a city/county/township problem. I can't imagine it being the resp. of an HOA, even one with private streets. On the other hand, if the HOA operates their own water treatment plant, then they may be resp. for the fire hydrants.

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

I just discovered that in older areas and/or subdivisions there were "flushing hydrants" installed on water mains as small as 2" for the sole purpose of flushing sediment from the mains. While they look just like a fire hydrant (and work the same) they are NOT suitable for fire protection. Your local FD should know all about this situation.

Just don't tell your insurance company which probably in under the same assumption as I was that a hydrant is a hydrant is a hydrant.

A Fire Hydrant should have a RED painted top.

God bless America .... we sure need his help !!!!

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Flushing Hydrants

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

The issue is the water pressure in the lines and the draw (of the water from OUR supply) needed to run the fire dept.'s hoses. Plus, this was a 3,000 sq.ft. 2 1/2 story home. This subdivison, established in 1924, used to be all cottages. People bought up 2 or 3 40 ft. lots and put up these bigger home.

We run our own water system (off two artisan wells) to supply 250 homes. The lines are old, mostly lead, but get constantly upgraded, little by little. We have a state certified water technician on the Board who monitors all the water system. It is what it is. We can't hook up to city provided water lines, or else the pressure would blow out our entire system.

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

I think I may be moving to a civilized industrial nation, say..................Brazil.

They actually enforce the building code for new construction.

Have a good New Year !

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

And yet for the most part the majority of this countries buildings manage to keep standing. Could we build houses and commercial buildings that would stand through almost everything? Absolutely, however only the mega rich could afford to pay for them; there is such a thing as over-engineering.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

How about the 200 year old peasant shacks in Ireland?

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Folks, I just noted that an off-topic thread has been removed by the administrator. Could we use that as a reminder to not get off topic and to limit our discussion to pertinent issues.

Thanks.

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 01/02/2009 2:21 PM
The issue is the water pressure in the lines and the draw (of the water from OUR supply) needed to run the fire dept.'s hoses. Plus, this was a 3,000 sq.ft. 2 1/2 story home. This subdivison, established in 1924, used to be all cottages. People bought up 2 or 3 40 ft. lots and put up these bigger home.

We run our own water system (off two artisan wells) to supply 250 homes. The lines are old, mostly lead, but get constantly upgraded, little by little. We have a state certified water technician on the Board who monitors all the water system. It is what it is. We can't hook up to city provided water lines, or else the pressure would blow out our entire system.

Upgraded to what? 6" mains to support proper hydrants in the future?

Sounds like it is time to abandon your antique well(s) and join the modern city water supply system.

If you wish to build 'McMansions' and connect them to 85 year old utilities ... so be it.

The electric supply was modernized .... now you need to modernize the water supply.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 01/03/2009 6:52 AM
Folks, I just noted that an off-topic thread has been removed by the administrator. Could we use that as a reminder to not get off topic and to limit our discussion to pertinent issues.

Thanks.

No.

And off-topic thread is exactly that. It wasn't removed because it was off-topic.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Susan,
My new home up here in Tennessee is a brand new subdivision. Normally, the Developers install all of the infrastructure and that includes the hydrants. The local fire marshall does an annual inspection of every hydrant for adequet pressure and if it is not enough, the developer would have to fix that issue. If the Developer was out of here, we, the HOA , would have to fix it.

So, your develpement is older and apparently now has lower water pressure than what the Fire Dept requires to operate the probably newer equipement. So you need to number 1, have the Fire Dept come and measure what your hydrants put out in pressure and number 2, you need to fix that. You could have had a catastrophy if more than 1 house was burning and there was not enough water.

Mary, If this was not a private HOA, the hydrants would be under control of the City but once it becomes under a HOA, it is their responsibility, especially because they OWN their own water system.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Donna,

After reading Susan's latest response I now understand that because they have their own water system, they are resp.

It sounds like the water plant is grossly inadequate and the HOA is probably in for a rather large expenditure to bring it up to date. With a water plant located right in the s/d there should be no problems with water pressure. IMO, this is a problem that should be addressed immediately. Should there be another fire, hopefully the Fire Dept will remember to bring the pumpers right away!!!!

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Agree Michelle,
It probably was removed because it could have gotten way too political, which is easy to do with what the the original topic was. Good for the monitor for watching .

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonnaS on 01/03/2009 12:03 PM

Susan,
My new home up here in Tennessee is a brand new subdivision. Normally, the Developers install all of the infrastructure and that includes the hydrants. The local fire marshall does an annual inspection of every hydrant for adequet pressure and if it is not enough, the developer would have to fix that issue. If the Developer was out of here, we, the HOA , would have to fix it.

So, your develpement is older and apparently now has lower water pressure than what the Fire Dept requires to operate the probably newer equipement. So you need to number 1, have the Fire Dept come and measure what your hydrants put out in pressure and number 2, you need to fix that. You could have had a catastrophy if more than 1 house was burning and there was not enough water.

Mary, If this was not a private HOA, the hydrants would be under control of the City but once it becomes under a HOA, it is their responsibility, especially because they OWN their own water system.

!EXACTLY!

When the NEW homes were allowed to be built (in the place of cottages) the water supply 'should' have been brought up to existing code.

ps. its not pressure that really counts...its volume flowed at a minimum pressure so that the pumps on the trucks do not cavitate or overheat...this almost certainly requires a 4-6" water main to feed the 4 or 4.5" pump suction outlet on the hydrant...the 2.5" outlet is for a direct hose

Does the new HO's insurance co. know about the inadequate hydrants? Or the fact that they may merely be 'flushing hydrants' in fire hyrant's clothing?

Good luck to all us suckers who bought into these disasters in the making. P.T. Barnum would have been proud. ---> this way to the egress --->

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Let me expand this a bit, if you will. Hoosierland is dotted with similar small water companies, particularly in rural areas. They either serve a small town of a few hundred or few thousand residents, or they serve (for example) a isolated community of vacation homes surrounding a lake. Because they are so small, they are not regulated by the state utility regulatory commission, but still have to maintain EPA standards.

Many of these systems are old and deteriorating. It is not unusual to have lead pipes, which raises questions about lead content in the water. (By the way a whole lot of Chicago is served by lead water pipes currently.)

Increasingly, as infrastructure replacement becomes necessary, these small water utilities are selling out to larger companies that specialize in owning and managing small water utilities. They are regulated by the state utility regulatory commission and have access to investment capital. Typically, these companies will invest significant amounts to upgrade/replace the entire water utility system, with a 30-50 year return on investment through increased water rates.

Does anyone here have experience with a homeowners or community association-owned water system being bought out by a company such as American Water?

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

Wow, Insurance companies LOVE to find ways to have someone else pay for claims. Won't be long before they sue the HOA for something they were advised of 3 months prior! There go the HOA fees.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Where was the fire department before the fire? Regardless of who owns and maintains the hydrants, the FD should have tested and condemned them long ago.

I once managed a self storage on the outskirts of Tucson. We owned the three hydrants on the property. The FD made an annual inspection of our hydrants so there would be no surprises if they ever had to connect to them. The FD did connect once to the one on the street to put out a fire down the street. The hydrant worked as it should have.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Larry,

This is a 2009 thread that 5F reactivated for, I believe, the sole purpose of advertising his company. If you look up his website, it was only registered a few days ago. I've already reported his post to the site administrator.

Tim

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Tim,

Someday I will learn to look at the original posting date. Thanks for pointing out what has happened.

Larry

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