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GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Do any homeowners associations have any experience complying with this new requirement?
    Many of the 300,000 public pools and spas in the U.S. are required to close on December 19, 2008 according to the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) if they do not comply with the Virginia Graeme Baker Pool & Spa Safety Act .

    The Act was named honoring Miss Baker, granddaughter of James Baker III, former U.S. Secretary of State, who died in 2002 when entrapped on a drain in a private in-ground spa.

    The new federal law requires all public pools and spas, including those at community parks, YMCAs, apartments, condominiums, and other homeowner associations, waterparks, hotels, schools, and universities to be equipped with drain covers and other safety measures to prevent entrapment and evisceration. CPSC, the enforcing agency of the Act, may impose financial penalties and seek imprisonment for violators.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200806/ai_n27511266

    http://www.nspf.com/Documents/CPSC_Articles/cpscSection1404.pdf
    and
    http://www.cpsc.gov/BUSINFO/vgpsa.pdf


RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
George,
Not that we can change in or mandate it, I would think this should catch some eyes. Could it be a simple fix or extensive and what physically has to be done. Do you object if I copy your post and send it to our Local Paper?

Might suggest that other posters might want to do the same.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
We talked about this in a previous thread. Maybe someone will recall the title of the thread.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
It was, indeed, discussed in August:

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/36499/Default.aspx

but the discussion never really went anywhere. I am interested to know what is/was/will be the result of associations complying with the requirement. Costly? Simple? Quick?
etc? etc?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
George,

The link you provided pertained to "playground equipment"???
RenaeW1 (Florida)
Posts: 42
Posted:
Our pool maintenance company has gone to a series of workshops in Columbia, S.C. on this new law. Since our pool is an outside pool and is closed for the winter already, we still have some time; it has to be fixed before reopening this Spring. He thinks it will cost around $400 to fix our pool, as we already have some of the features that are required, such as two drains instead of just one. Of course, after he finishes the required workshops he may find out we need more and the cost could go up.

As a homeowner who has a child that swims in the pool, I feel this is long overdue and will be glad to pay whatever the cost.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Oops! Mea culpa:

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/52763/Default.aspx

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
We have an old pool (the complex was built between 1972 and 1982) and while attending the annual meeting of the Central Indiana CAI, I spoke to a pool company rep (they used to care for ours until the price became unaffordable). He said the Marion county health department sent notices to HOAs and other organizations with public pools about the new law - some might not have seen them because they may have been placed in the pump area).

I was told some pools can comply with the law by installing some sort of drain cover, but there currently isn't one for our pool because of its age. Instead, we may have to purchase some sort of anti-entrapment device which is installed on the pump - if it detects something other than water coming in, the device shuts down the entire pump. This gizmo would cost about $1000, whereas a drain cover might cost under $150.

The vendor said there may be some companies that develop a cover for our type of pool next year. To play it safe, we budget $1500, but because of delinquences and the need for a new pool cover (which I discussed in another thread), we may have to postpone or cancel the pool season anyway.

Hope this helps a bit! I suppose the way to approach this is to talk to your current vendor to see what you need and then shop around for the best solution and price - double check with the health department (Health and Hospital in Marion county) to make sure you get the right thing. The health department will likely inspect the pool for compliance anyway before issuing a license.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I suspect that the device actually measures a combination of how much water is flowing and how much pressure is present. Should either go too far from normal (or change suddenly) the pump shuts off.

By the time a body part makes its way to the pump the damage is done.

As a note, I recall seeing something talking about cost versus benefit. Obviously they didn't talk tot he parents of the little girl who had her intestines sucked out and then living for a few weeks.
JS1 (Nevada)
Posts: 30
Posted:
Please be sure to check with your local Health Department that regulates and inspects pools. The federal standards are the minimum. There are some counties that have more restrictive standards.

This is the information that was released today.

NEWS from CPSC
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
Office of Information and Public Affairs
Washington, DC 20207

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 15, 2008
Release #09-065

CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908

Pool And Spa Safety Law Aimed At Preventing Drain Entrapments of Children Goes Into Effect This Week:
Failure to comply with Congressionally-enacted law can result in closure

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is again reminding public pool and spa owners and operators nationwide that the Virginia Graeme Baker Pool and Spa Safety Act becomes effective on December 19, 2008. This law requires installation of anti-entrapment drain covers and other systems as outlined in the Act.

The Pool and Spa Safety Act was enacted by Congress and signed by President Bush on December 19, 2007, and is designed to prevent the tragic and hidden hazard of drain entrapments and eviscerations in pools and spas. Under the law, all public pools and spas must have ASME/ANSI A112.19.8-2007 compliant drain covers installed and a second anti-entrapment system installed, when there is only a single main drain. Congress gave all affected pool and spa operators one year to comply with this law.

Public pools and spas that operate year-round are expected to be in compliance by December 19, 2008. CPSC staff has taken the position that seasonal public pools and spas that are currently closed must be in compliance with the law on the day that they reopen in 2009.

"Our mission at the CPSC is to keep American families safe," said Nancy Nord, CPSC Acting Chairman. "CPSC will enforce the requirements of this pool and spa safety law with a focus on where the greatest risk of drain entrapment to children exists, such as wading pools, pools designed specifically for toddlers and young children, and in-ground spas, particularly where these types of pools and spas have flat drain grates and single main drain systems."

Nord added, "State health and enforcement agencies share the responsibility to ensure this law is properly enforced. I recommend these agencies take the same approach as CPSC concerning enforcement priorities."

Pool and spa operators are encouraged to continue working as diligently as possible to come into compliance, as the agency and state Attorneys General are empowered to close down any pool or spa that fails to meet the Act's requirements.

For more information about the Pool and Spa Safety Act, how to comply, and which companies have been certified to manufacturer drain covers and safety vacuum release systems, please log on to: www.cpsc.gov/whatsnew.html#pool

To see this release on CPSC's web site, please go to: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09065.html

PeterB1 (Florida)
Posts: 257
Posted:
Several months ago, we went to our pool service contractor and asked them to help. There is new drain cover available - but the part is on back-order. When the part becomes available (maybe mid-January) they will install it. Cost $250. That is the part plus installation. Rationale for the cost - it requires a diver to put it on (Florida).

Anyone else told there is a problem with the availability of this part?
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Quote:
Several months ago, we went to our pool service contractor and asked them to help. There is new drain cover available - but the part is on back-order. When the part becomes available (maybe mid-January) they will install it. Cost $250. That is the part plus installation. Rationale for the cost - it requires a diver to put it on (Florida).

Anyone else told there is a problem with the availability of this part?

Well the cost is a great one. And if you can have a certified diver install it for that cost that is even better. I would have guessed that would be the cost after you drain the pool.

As for the availability, I am not surprised at all that it won't be available until January. Some are already scrambling to meet the deadline. And it will get worse before it gets better.
AlexL1 (Florida)
Posts: 305
Posted:
Renai: You mention having two drains... the law as I read it says the drains have to be minimum of 3 feet apart
AlexL1 (Florida)
Posts: 305
Posted:
I believe that we are planning to drain our pool because the water is in dire need of being changed and possibly lightly acid washed.... even though I detest acid washing...
RenaeW1 (Florida)
Posts: 42
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlexL1 on 12/18/2008 4:31 PM
Renai: You mention having two drains... the law as I read it says the drains have to be minimum of 3 feet apart

Hmmm... trying to visualize how far apart they are. The cover is on the pool or I would look. I'm thinking maybe 2-3 feet apart.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To all,
When this thread first appeared I cut and pasted some of the information, acknowledged is came from a HOA Talk site on the web and e-mailed it to my local paper. I suggested this was a pretty big story.

They never answered, which is fine with me, but this morning there is a front page story about these drains. Just wanted to point out, if my paper took my suggestion, that items posted here could be newsworthy fodder for local papers. Not that they were published on Hoatalk, but the subjects we sometime get into have widespread interest. Citing state laws and statutes or proposed legislation we hear of, or changes being made or considered in legislation by the various states might well interest the local media.
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Just a question for thought......are swimming pools in condo associations considered "public"? We are a private community with no public access to our pool, at all. It can only be used by the private citizens who live here. Just wondering.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnaD2 on 12/19/2008 10:47 AM
Just a question for thought......are swimming pools in condo associations considered "public"? We are a private community with no public access to our pool, at all. It can only be used by the private citizens who live here. Just wondering.
The answer is yes, condo pools are included in these regulations:
    A public pool or spa is defined as one that is either generally open to the public, or is open exclusively to any one of the following groups: members of an organization and their guests; residents of a multiunit apartment building, apartment complex, residential real estate development or other multifamily residential area; or patrons of a hotel or other public accommodations facility.

RenaeW1 (Florida)
Posts: 42
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 12/19/2008 5:53 AM
To all,
When this thread first appeared I cut and pasted some of the information, acknowledged is came from a HOA Talk site on the web and e-mailed it to my local paper. I suggested this was a pretty big story.

They never answered, which is fine with me, but this morning there is a front page story about these drains. Just wanted to point out, if my paper took my suggestion, that items posted here could be newsworthy fodder for local papers. Not that they were published on Hoatalk, but the subjects we sometime get into have widespread interest. Citing state laws and statutes or proposed legislation we hear of, or changes being made or considered in legislation by the various states might well interest the local media.

I have seen this story on the national news stations also.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Renae,
I supposed I could conclude that they picked it off the wire services and they probably did, but I also recently receive a thank you from my paper, which means thank you for thinking of us, I believe.
Anyhow,I was more concerned about the Local area being notidied of this problem than the National picture and the story reported had both local and Federal coverage. The problems we are having now and since most pools as defined by George in another post are closed right now, these problems of procurement of the covers is likely to be a big problem in the early spring.
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
New story:

Coachella Valley pools stay open as new federal law takes effect

http://www.mydesert.com/article/20081219/NEWS01/812190314/1006/NEWS01

Local government said they didn't have the enforcement power - another wrinkle.

Joe

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
DavidW5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 565
Posted:
Yesterday I went to our HOA clubhouse to use the indoor spa and swimming pool. The spa was empty and our pool management company was installing the new drain covers. Today the HOA sent an email to all homeowners stating that the spa would be closed indefinitely until it could be brought into compliance with the law. When I called the clubhouse to ask about this I was told that when the old drain covers were removed, it was determined that the drain pump was too close to the drain to meet the requirements of the law. The pool management company has submitted a proposal to the Board for the necessary modifications. I suspect that might involve excavation and pouring of concrete which will be both expensive and time consuming.

I wonder why they waited until the very last day to attempt to comply with the law. I also wonder whether these delays could have been avoided if the developer had provided "as built" drawings that had been repeatedly requested by the HOA. Just another example of poor management of the association.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidW5 on 12/19/2008 7:04 PM
Just another example of poor management of the association.

David, I certainly don't know your BOD but don't assume they waited until the last day to comply. HOA Boards are often at the mercy of the schedules of their vendors and availability of parts.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AlexL1 (Florida)
Posts: 305
Posted:
All the talk about the new Federal law regarding drains and I still do not know what to do. I asked locally and likewise, get all sorts of answers. I even heard that the type of drain covers is not settled yet and people should wait. What concerns me is that we do something and then later on, find out that it was not the right step(s) to have been taken and have to do it all over again.
MikeF4 (Texas)
Posts: 26
Posted:
I am amazed and confused by a federal law causing all of these problems in order to hopefully prevent an average of 1 death each year.


www.silveradohoa.com
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Mike,

Would it help to know the child's death which prompted the legislation was the grand-daughter of a former US Secretary of State and Secretary of Treasury?
JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176
Posted:
Would it help to know that pool installers and manufacturers have known of this hazard since day one?! Any plumber worth his salt also knows about drain hazards. Ever tried to clear a flooded area or storm drain? Drowning is a maintainance plumber's occupational hazard. The shame is that it took a famous person's child's death to finally force action which would have added about $100 to new construction cost.

Guess this is along the same lines as the electrical contractor's 10-pack of duplex receptacles for $3.49 (check it out at Lowes) when a UL listed commercial grade receptacle sells for $2.99 each.

We are fast becoming a nation of garbage consumers. Since we pay for this junk and/or second rate construction ..... it must be acceptable.

PLEASE let us remember that 'code' is the MINIMUM standard for human occupation.

A Quanset hut with 7' ceilings and 1 w/c meets code. Want to live there?
StuddaVents under the sink INSIDE your kitchen meet code.

Death-Trap pool drains which pin divers to the pool bottom met minimum code when built.....but no large public pool actually used a single drain for this very reason.

Now the HOAs are crying because we need to correct a defect which we bought because it was cheaper to build are crying? BOO HOO HOO......................
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
John,
Do me a favor and explain the last sentence in your above post.
Back in this thread the designation of a public pool was given and if memory serves said a HOA pool would be classed as a public pool. Got any reason for all this confusion if you conclude the HOA "bought a defective design". I don't believe the HOA's bought pools to begin with, I would believe that would have been done by developer and Pool Company. Now the HOA has to correct a defect that you say was know to exist all along. Was there resistence by the construction companies to build the pools right, is that the problem? Or was it if the developer paid enough the product would not have this described defect? Help us out, I suspect this problem will grow in number of complaints.
JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 12/27/2008 8:00 PM
John,
Do me a favor and explain the last sentence in your above post.
Back in this thread the designation of a public pool was given and if memory serves said a HOA pool would be classed as a public pool. Got any reason for all this confusion if you conclude the HOA "bought a defective design". I don't believe the HOA's bought pools to begin with, I would believe that would have been done by developer and Pool Company. Now the HOA has to correct a defect that you say was know to exist all along. Was there resistence by the construction companies to build the pools right, is that the problem? Or was it if the developer paid enough the product would not have this described defect? Help us out, I suspect this problem will grow in number of complaints.

Code compliance does not rule out shoddy construction practices.
Code compliance does not ensure good practice construction.
Code compliance merely makes the structure MINIMALLY fit for human occupation/use.
Building precisely to code quarrantees a MINIMALLY adequate structure which is MINIMALLY suited fot occupation/use.

Building to good practice and EXCEEDING code standards would have added to the builder's/developer's costs - the units/homes would have had to be higher priced or of lesser profit.

The purchasers into the HOA bought these 'crap pools' and are now complaining about a law requiring them to be brought up to accepted industry safety standards.

<<"Or was it if the developer paid enough the product would not have this described defect?">>

EXACTLY
e.g. The Ford Pinto, while legal to drive, was a known death trap in a rear end collision due to the 'flimsy' under the trunk/rear seat gas tank. The more expensive Chevy Impala was not.

Product safety recalls are done all the time - this one is merely written into law !

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
As Mike previously noted, these drains, before James Baker III suffered a personal loss, accounted for an average of 1 death a year. 1 death in 1000s, or 10,000s, or 100,000s of pools. De minimus, as a Court might say. Now, I'm not pro-drowning, but that's a pretty small number of casualties by any measure. Imagine if every other commonly used appliance/structure/vehicle/whatever that caused more than 1 death per year suddenly had to all be retrofitted at a cost of $Ms, or $Bs, or $Ts, just because a powerful man got his nose out of joint.

But the (drain protection) law's been passed, so that's the way it goes. Personally, I think it's a massive waste and burden, but I'm not JB3.

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK3 on 12/28/2008 10:40 AM
As Mike previously noted, these drains, before James Baker III suffered a personal loss, accounted for an average of 1 death a year. 1 death in 1000s, or 10,000s, or 100,000s of pools. De minimus, as a Court might say. Now, I'm not pro-drowning, but that's a pretty small number of casualties by any measure. Imagine if every other commonly used appliance/structure/vehicle/whatever that caused more than 1 death per year suddenly had to all be retrofitted at a cost of $Ms, or $Bs, or $Ts, just because a powerful man got his nose out of joint.

But the (drain protection) law's been passed, so that's the way it goes. Personally, I think it's a massive waste and burden, but I'm not JB3.


How many SERIOUS injuries ??
(which would have been preventable by 'best practice' construction)
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
This is getting out of hand. These questions are easily addressed by going to the web pages cited in the initial posting, to wit:
    There is an annual average of 283 drowning deaths (2003-2005) and 2,700 emergency room-treated submersion injuries (2005-2007) involving children younger than 5 in pools and spas. In addition, from 1997-2007, there were 74 reported incidents associated with suction entrapment, including 9 deaths and 63 injuries. The new law is aimed at reducing these deaths and injuries by making pools safer, securing the environment around them, and educating consumers and industry on pool safety.
http://www.cpsc.gov/BUSINFO/vgpsa.pdf

Uninformed opinions add little to the discussion or to an understanding of the issues here.

Also, take a look at the informative article referenced by Joseph West in his post.

    Coachella Valley pools stay open as new federal law takes effect
    No residential community, school or hotel pools in the Coachella Valley are at risk of closing today as a new federal law goes into effect, requiring all public pools to be equipped with anti-drowning drains and drain covers to prevent children from being trapped underwater.

    “We don't have enforcement power,” said David Albietz, a senior environmental specialist for the Riverside County Department of Environmental Health. “We won't be citing or closing down pools.”
    . . .

    But after passing the law last year, Congress failed to appropriate the money needed to enforce it or mount public education programs aimed at pool owners, said Nancy Nord, acting chairwoman of the Consumer Product Safety Commission in a telephone press conference earlier in the week.


JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176
Posted:
GeorgerwilliamsW,

re: uninformed opinions

I am a 1977 graduate of Plumbers Local Union #2 Apprenticeship Program and have been a Building Trades Journeyman Plumber/Pipefitter for 35 years.

Way back in the early '70s we were instructed as to the danger of improperly designed/constructed pool and/or area drains. A drain can be improperly designed and constructed AND STILL MEET CODE.

I am not voicing an opinion re: these drains.....I am stating a fact:
If the suction can grab you it is an inferior substandard drain not meeting the principle of good practice construction .....even if it met code.

Your worst nightmare would be to live in a home which exactly and precisely meets code in all respects! ( 7'2" ceilings, heated to 45 at night, 55 days, A/C to 90, 1 bath, total of 2 sinks, 400 square feet total for a family of 3,
etc, etc, etc)

opinion: we as a society have become so accustomed to buying junk packaged in a pretty facade that this discussion is taking place

re: enforcement .... merely because one could get away with keeping a substandard pool open does not lessen the moral culpability of doing so .... fix the flipping drain(s) or spring for a Life Guard or shut it down ..... why are we so worried about a couple of bucks to fix what is patenly a luxury item ? .... if we can't afford to operate a safe pool ... shut it down ...
we only need air - water - shelter - food -- all else is gravy
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

John,

Another one of us feeling that we are between a rock and a hard place with our world of overindulgence and then we bitch about paying to have things made better so that we take back our values of life for each other. I like your "fix the flipping drain(s) or spring for a Life Guard or shut it down "

I think that 20/20 did a piece a few years ago about how these drains can suck someones hair or a kids little bottom into the drain so there is no escape. Memory recalls that it was 8 or 10 years ago and finally some bright politician has finally addressed it. Must have been more important things going on like pay raises or maybe a gazillion dollar war.

( Gosh, I must have had a revelation one day while on the beach)
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
John, your:
re: enforcement .... merely because one could get away with keeping a substandard pool open does not lessen the moral culpability of doing so .... fix the flipping drain(s) or spring for a Life Guard or shut it down ..... why are we so worried about a couple of bucks to fix what is patenly a luxury item ? .... if we can't afford to operate a safe pool ... shut it down ...
we only need air - water - shelter - food -- all else is gravy
********************************************
How are we, as volunteers that give opinions, supposed to handle this information if we want to help some one? I am not suggesting you started anything, and I value your expertise and experience and also your writing. I don't know enough to agree or disagree with this statement but it seems you are trying to give a message that is somehow lost. Frankly, your evaluation of the technical aspects of this esoteric subject is most helfful. You do seem to want to say more than that. Give it a little time and keep posting here, we really lack for hands on experience in mechanical problems and as you surely know, HOA's and Condo's are full of plumbing and full of daily problems caused by all this stuff. Certainly not all the advise we give should come from the administration side, because not all the problems are rooted there. The physical structure of our homes and building require expertise to understand those problems, and not all management folks are skilled tradesmen, and boy do we all know that.

Just thinking out loud.
JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176
Posted:
Get a professional engineer's report.
Get the appropriate building permit.
Hire reputable licenced, insured, BONDED contractors.
Plumbing, Electric, HVAC requires SKILLED TRADESMEN not 'B' immigrants using butterknives to install fixture 'trim'.
The fact that we are volunteers does not relieve us of the fiduciary duty to the corporation.
If we can not afford the 'McMansion Lifestyle' (a mere facade, figuratuvely and literally) we should downsize our living arrangements.
The current state of consumer grade construction in this nation literally makes me sick to my stomach. What we would have thrown away as garbage "back in the day" is now sold in contractor's packs at Lowes and Home Depot.

ps. the International Building Code is a joke suitable for the back woods of Brazil not the Republic of the United States of America

If the Empire State Building was built to IBC standards it would have fallen within 15 years - the twin towers was built to IBC code with 1 hr fire rated steel -- not NYC code which would have required 4 hour steel -- see Empire State Building

We are insured for $100 per square foot construction yet have purchased structures which cost $50-65 to build .... we got what we paid for ... $13 faucets ... 35 cent duplex electric receptacles (not kidding..check the contractors packs at Lowes) ........

I could go on forever ..... but ....'tis the season .... and we are stuck
JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176
Posted:
".....and not all management folks are skilled tradesmen, and boy do we all know that."

No offence, but, it would behoove you to HIRE skilled tradesmen, engineers, architects, etc.

And make certain they are licenced, insured, and that their WORK is bonded.

OOOps, that would cost actual money ..... and we want the mansion w/o paying the price.

A pool drain is NOT an esoteric subject ..... ever put your hand over your bathtub drain while it was emptying? DOH !
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB7 on 12/28/2008 4:23 PM
".....and not all management folks are skilled tradesmen, and boy do we all know that."

No offence, but, it would behoove you to HIRE skilled tradesmen, engineers, architects, etc.

And make certain they are licenced, insured, and that their WORK is bonded.

OOOps, that would cost actual money ..... and we want the mansion w/o paying the price.

A pool drain is NOT an esoteric subject ..... ever put your hand over your bathtub drain while it was emptying? DOH !

Agree totally. I'm not a gardener or landscaping professional. But I know enough to make sure we hire professional, reputable lawn care people.

It doesn't move me one whit that one of our residents does lawn care "on the side" and would give us a huge break/discount in the cost of lawn care.

Not that lawn care and pool maintenance are similar, but the CONCEPT of HIRING the RIGHT people to do the job is the same.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
George writes:

>>>from 1997-2007, there were 74 reported incidents associated with suction entrapment, including 9 deaths and 63 injuries.<<<

Still looks like one death per year to me. So what's uninformed about that?
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Come on John. You know that we are all uneducated heathens here.

I agree with you. At one death per year, the last thing we need is yet another un-funded mandate from the government. Requiring that new pools be built with proper safeguards is reasonable. Requiring that existing pools not be allowed to continue operation until they have an expensive retrofit done is not reasonable.

I don't want to seem uncaring to the possibility of injury to children (or anyone else). But this is the wrong place to be spending the safety dollars. According to a new report from the Center for Disease Control, each year in the U.S. alone about 12,200 people younger than 19 die of unintentional injuries. The vast majority of those are from motor-vehicle-related injuries. Instead of mandating swimming pool modifications, the government should be pushing programs to reduce the public's dependency on the automobile.
JimM7 (Florida)
Posts: 71
Posted:
JohnK3.....

You obviously do not live in a community with a large number of children or older folks who may not be able to respond to an unsafe condition in a swimming pool. 1 death by any means is too much. Take another look at your position.
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JimM7 on 12/31/2008 10:14 AM
JohnK3.....

You obviously do not live in a community with a large number of children or older folks who may not be able to respond to an unsafe condition in a swimming pool. 1 death by any means is too much. Take another look at your position.

I'm fine with my position. As I (and Dwight) previously noted, I'm not pro-drowning for anyone. But based on the stats we've explored, the possibility/probability of 1 child death by suction per year does not justify, in my opinion, the huge expenses JB3 managed to have imposed on the nation.

How about the +250 children who drowned in non-suction events? How about the 1,000s Dwight notes die in vehicular incidents? Perhaps we should simply ban children from pools and cars? If not, then what?
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Not to resurect the discussion, but his is some more info on the subject:

New pool safety law could be financial drain for associations

(Sun Sentinel, Fort Lauderdale, FL Via Acquire Media NewsEdge) Jan. 11--Be prepared to spend some extra money next year if you live in a condo complex or community with a pool.

A new federal safety law that went into effect last month requires new drain covers to be installed in most of Florida's 37,000 public pools. The upgrade could cost from hundreds to thousands of dollars per pool -- an expense that, in most cases, will be shared by the condo residents or homeowners.
"We have no idea yet how much it will be, but it's going to cost these people a fortune," said Joanne Jackson, a vice president with CenWest, the private company that manages the recreational facilities for South Florida's four Century Village retirement communities. "They will have to drain the pools down to do the installation."

The federally approved covers, which are domed instead of flat, are designed to prevent swimmers from being trapped underwater by drain suction. The Consumer Product Safety Commission logged 74 entrapment cases from 1999 through 2007, with nine fatalities

The 2007 Virginia Graeme Baker Pool and Spa Safety Act, passed by Congress last year, required all public pools and spas have the covers installed by Dec. 19. Single family homes with pools are exempt. Almost one-fifth of Florida's affected pools also may need to replace their circulation systems if they have older, direct suction models.

The federal Consumer Product Safety Commission plans to work with state health departments and attorney general offices on compliance checks and enforcement, as it has limited staff. The South Florida office, in Miami, has one investigator.

"People need to know they are beyond the deadline. There is a renewed urgency for them to act if this is the first time they are hearing about the law," said CPSC spokesman Scott Wolfson.

Wolfson advised associations to first check with reliable pool installers and service companies, certified by the state, to do the upgrades. The CPSC has received reports of contractors trying to scare consumers into doing unnecessary work with tales of huge potential fines. Wolfson said the agency will consider, case by case, compliance obstacles associations may be facing, and is aware that there is "significant backlog" in orders for the new covers.

Regulators first will concentrate on wading pools, kiddie pools and spas, said Wolfson, because young children are the ones most likely to be injured or die in entrapment accidents. The act is named for former presidential adviser James Baker's 7-year-old granddaughter, who was killed in 2002 when she was trapped by a whirlpool drain.

Exactly how the act will be enforced still is being worked out among federal and state agencies.

The Florida Department of Health is drafting new state regulations that will incorporate the federal changes and be effective later this year. But Bob Vincent, assistant bureau chief with the state's Bureau of Water Programs, said the federal law, which supersedes state statutes, technically is valid now and pool owners "need to be pursuing getting a drain cover or have one in."

Pools serving between two and five residences and those in condo complexes with fewer than 32 units, which previously were exempted under state rules, are included in the pool safety act.

Health inspectors, who check public pools twice yearly, will be looking at covers and drains, Vincent said.

Jim Ellul, commercial service consultant for Pool Service America in Miami, said the majority of the company's South Florida clients have the new covers. The company is recommending those that aren't compliant close their pools or spas until they upgrade. "It's a matter of health and safety, not just liability," Ellul said.

Attorney Ken Direktor, chairman of Becker & Poliakoff's community association practice, agreed that liability issues could be "exacerbated" if a swimmer was injured in a noncompliant pool. But so far, he isn't recommending closures.

Financing mandatory pool retrofitting will be a "daunting process" during the economic downturn, Direktor said, with more than 20 percent of the units in some communities in foreclosure.

Stanley Siegel, a resident of Boca Raton's Century Village and chairman of a committee that works with the complex's management, said the retirement community's 18 pools remained open "because we haven't received any directive to close them. And we don't have many children that use them."

After cost estimates come in, "we will have to see if we have enough funds in reserve," Siegel said. "If not, we'll have to see about getting the money."

Diane Lade can be reached at [email protected] or 954-356-4295 or 561-243-6618.

What you need to know

A new federal law, designed to prevent swimmers from being trapped underwater by drain suction, went into effect last month.

Almost all Florida pools and spas in condominiums, homeowner association communities, health clubs and hotels must be fitted with new safety-rated domed drain covers immediately.

Older pools and spas with direct suction drains may need new drainage systems as well.

Single family homeowners with pools and spas should replace outdated drain covers for safety reasons, even if not required to do so by law.

Approved covers should be stamped: ASME/ANSI A112.19.8.

New covers must be put in by state-registered pool installers and service companies in order to comply. To check a license, go to: www.myfloridalicense.com. Or call 1-850-487-1395.

For more information: The federal Consumer Product Safety Commission. Go to www.cpsc.gov and type "pool/spa" into the search field. Or call 800-638-2772.

How to prevent entrapment

Do not lean your body against a drain or put your hands or feet near a drain

Swimmers with long hair should wear a bathing caps, or at least tie back their hair.

Don't swim in pools or spas with loose, broken or missing drain covers.

If the water isn't clear enough to see the pool drain, don't get in.

Know where the main switches are for pool and spa pumps, so you can quickly turn them off.

Joe

Joseph West
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MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
As always, there is the dreaded Monster of Unintended Consequences that rears its ugly head in almost any situation where decisions are made, policies and laws are adopted, or guidelines and mandates are proferred.

I'm sure this is no exception.

Another example, legislation last year (to take affect on February 20) that was intended to protect children from lead contaminated products sired its own Monster of Unintended Consequences.

The law went something like this (broad brush here): Any items destined for children under the age of 12 must be tested for lead and another contaminate before sale.

Oppsey.

Companies such as Goodwill or consignment shops or charitable organizations (such as one that I run here in Louisville that donates handmade blankets to children) will not be able to afford the testing. Without something done to address this Unintended Consequence(tm), then such organizations (including mine) will simply have to close their doors. In the few years since I've been handing this blanket-making chapter here in Kentucky, we've placed over 3,000 blankets into the arms of children who are undergoing treatment for some sort of terminal illness or who have experienced physical or emotional trauma. Our blanket-making volunteers range in age from kids in grade school to elderly women in sewing circles. We even have groups from a Boys Haven and a women's prison donate handmade blankets. Neither they nor our all-volunteer organization could sustain the testing that each blanket must receive under this new law.

The intent or idea behind the law was noble (done in response to a plethora of items hitting our economy from places like China, et al), but the scope of it was not discretely examined.

We hope (many who have pressed our Congressional representatives to look into this) that something can be done soon before the law takes affect.

We have more children who need the security and warm hugs we provide through blankets.
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Amen, Michelle,

One of the major issues I have with a lot of the HOA/condo legislation proposed, is that they rarely look at the cost of implementing their laws. Something designed to fix a specific problem often ends up costing every owner in the state more money. Take a look at the article I posted today in the news:

http://www.lvrj.com/real_estate/37381059.html

I remember a few years ago I awarded the Arizona legislature the trophy for "Dumbest Proposed HOA Law Ever":

D. THE ASSOCIATION SHALL PROVIDE ON A WEB SITE THAT IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET A COPY OF THE ASSOCIATION'S RULES AND A COPY OF ITS SCHEDULE OF FEES AND FINES. THE ASSOCIATION SHALL ALSO PROVIDE TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE THE WEB SITE ADDRESS FOR THESE PUBLIC POSTINGS. ANY ASSOCIATION THAT FAILS TO NOTIFY THE SECRETARY OF STATE OF CHANGES IN ITS WEB SITE ADDRESS OR THAT FAILS TO ACCURATELY REVISE ITS WEB SITE POSTINGS WITHIN TEN DAYS OF ANY CHANGES IS CIVILLY LIABLE TO EACH MEMBER OF ITS ASSOCIATION FOR ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR EACH VIOLATION AND ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS PER DAY FOR EACH ADDITIONAL DAY OF VIOLATION.

Of course, each association was then going to have to assess every owner to cover the fine, plus costs, so the owners would be the ultimate losers.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Joe

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JosephW on 01/11/2009 2:21 PM

Of course, each association was then going to have to assess every owner to cover the fine, plus costs, so the owners would be the ultimate losers.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Joe

DOH!!!
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
We had our drain cover installed two days ago. We only needed ONE for our pool. some need two or three, depending on how their pool is designed. Total cost (including tax) $243.00. Not a bad price to be up to code and in compliance.
FredK1 (California)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Anna,

We have 11 pools and our board are still trying to resolve our problem re our pools,that were built in the 80s,as you stated your pools have been now installed with new drain covers,could you please let me know where these covers are available from and any other info would be a appreciated.I live in a gated community with 238 units and people are ready to kill the board directors and management. thanks Fred
AlexL1 (Florida)
Posts: 305
Posted:
I have tons of paperwork and one really has to sort thru all of it as any one paper that I have does not tell what you want to know.. This whole mess is costing millions and millions of dollars. One source that is sort of good is: www.APSP.org.

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