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JohnF8 (Maryland)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Hello All,
I am looking for some kind of receptacle to mount on or near our community mailboxes to to place notices of meetings and other community events. I am sure there is a name for these kinds of notice holders
but I don't know what that is.
Does anyone know where I can find information about these things ?
Also , I am curious how other communities disseminate notices like those stated above, other than a website, we are working on that !
Appreciate all suggestions.
John, Secretary of Fall HOA
SarahO (Ohio)
Posts: 26
Posted:
We deliver a newsletter with the information door to door,you could also mail them
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Like an enclosed bulletin/display board?

http://www.ergoindemand.com/bulletin_boards_enclosed.htm

Here's an all-weather one that locks.

http://www.allendisplay.com/All-Weather-Bulletin-Board_2
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
John, You might want to take a look at the boxes used by real estate sales people, such as the following:

Solar Powered Brochure Box
Solar powered LED illuminates flyers and acrylic front panel message
Holds up to 150 brochures and 50 business cards
Made of Ultra Strong white polished ABS with UV Guard (Resists yellowing and becoming brittle
Includes two premium grade rechargeable AAA Ni-Mh batteries

$29.95 ea.
http://www.realtysignxpress.com/index.html?page=acc

Or,

Brochure Box
* Durable polystyrene box keeps your listing sheets flat, dry and visible.
* The brochure box has the words "Please Take One" imprinted in red.
* Brochure Boxes come in quantities of 6.
http://www.oakleysign.com/store/product.php?productid=19014&cat=1778&page=1
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SarahO on 12/12/2008 12:49 PM
We deliver a newsletter with the information door to door,you could also mail them

Sarah,

Good ideas, but only if you live in a small community. My HOA has 1,702 homes and a mailing costs approx. $700, which would be quite a large monthly expense. AZ requires all meeting to be noticed. Don't know who would volunteer to deliver them door-to-door.
GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131
Posted:
Mary: Your board can get a bulk mail permit from the postal office to do the mailing. You will save a lot of money.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Be careful that you follow your state laws and your governing documents when giving required notices, such as the notice of a meeting. For example, both our state law and our Declaration state:

"Not less than ten nor more than sixty days in advance of any meeting, the secretary or other officer specified in the bylaws shall cause notice to be HAND-DELIVERED or sent PREPAID BY UNITED STATES MAIL to the mailing address of each unit or to any other mailing address designated in writing by the unit owner." (caps mine)

Thus, posting of the notice would not satisfy this requirement.

Check yours.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
MaryA.
Probably been considered but we have a 2000 (approx) unit HOA here also our condo. Both make good use of e-mail notifications. It does require some effort to maintain a e-mail list for 2000 units, not so much for our condo 65 units.

But, it is probably going to happen that all this mass snail mailing will shortly be a thing of the past due to economics. The viable alternative is e-mail mailings or "Blasts." Our Board still insists on some snail mail. Why, I do not know. Nearly all business is conducted by electronic means and in the case of e-mail the very few folks that don't have e-mail will dwindle away and it will become an accepted way of doing business, especially things like community notifications. This little trick has only been touched on the surface and in fact, associations can do a lot of innovative e-mail stuff such as embedding pictures, cartoons, music, etc, into e-mail to attract attention and the "green effort" would be worthy.

Regard boxes to keep paper notices in. A home made box with a lid serves the purpose, mounted on the side of a building, tree or what have you. I have made a few for mail drops and they are used all over our Island for special notices, such as Audobon Club, Garden Club, Community Center, many mounted on the post that holds the US Mail Box. I know it is probably illegal but I suspect that the Post Master General is too busy inspecting all the Offical Mail Boxes that have "Inspected by The Post Master General" imprinted on them.
Would you believe that is a legal requirement to have your mail delivered?
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Robert,

It may be a legal requirement to use snail mail (see my previous post). Not everybody has or uses email, just like some people still write checks at the supermarket instead of using an ATM card. Some people don't have or use cell phones. That may change over time, but it will probably be because us "old folks" are no longer around.
EdieL (Virginia)
Posts: 86
Posted:
In our community, we get permission from the Post Office to put
flyers in the mailboxes. We call the Postmaster and let him and
our carrier know when we need to send out the flyer. They, then,
are O.K. with it.
Edie
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EdieL on 12/13/2008 4:41 AM
In our community, we get permission from the Post Office to put
flyers in the mailboxes. We call the Postmaster and let him and
our carrier know when we need to send out the flyer. They, then,
are O.K. with it.
Edie

You're lucky. You have a nice postmaster. He's not supposed to do that. Hope the postal inspectors never find out.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 12/13/2008 4:47 AM
Posted By EdieL on 12/13/2008 4:41 AM
In our community, we get permission from the Post Office to put
flyers in the mailboxes. We call the Postmaster and let him and
our carrier know when we need to send out the flyer. They, then,
are O.K. with it.
Edie


You're lucky. You have a nice postmaster. He's not supposed to do that. Hope the postal inspectors never find out.

As a followup to the above, check this link:

http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/10/23/

It says, in part:

"The Mailbox Rule is a criminal statute passed by Congress in 1934 to protect Postal Service revenue after utilities and other companies began to distribute bills directly to consumers. While the statute does not make it illegal for non-Postal Service employees to deliver mail, it does make it a crime to deliver mail to a mailbox unless the item has postage."

I recall reading several years back about a local Boy Scout organization getting into trouble with the postal service for delivering flyers to mail boxes. No criminal charges were filed, but the Boy Scouts had to pay the required postage to avoid the criminal charges.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I doubt if EACH and EVERY Board meeting needs to be individually noticed.

If it is in the bylaws when the board meets, or a one-time announcement (i.e. that the board meets every month on the second Tues. or the ARC Committee meets every 15th of the month) is good enough. Reminders in the newsletters help, too.

Of coursse, Special Meetings and Annual Meetings need to be noticed to each Member.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 12/13/2008 5:37 AM
I doubt if EACH and EVERY Board meeting needs to be individually noticed.

If it is in the bylaws when the board meets, or a one-time announcement (i.e. that the board meets every month on the second Tues. or the ARC Committee meets every 15th of the month) is good enough. Reminders in the newsletters help, too.

Of coursse, Special Meetings and Annual Meetings need to be noticed to each Member.

I agree, but John didn't mention board meetings; only "meetings." From the OP there's no way to tell whether notice is required or not and how such notice, if required, must be delivered. He would have to check his documents or state laws to determine that.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To all,
Am I having a bad hair day or do the above replys not address the issue.

I supposed I leaped to conclusions to think that maybe we would be concerned about a way to save some cash and time, and still meet the requirements of all regulations. I realize not everyone has a cell phone (in fact just got mine the other day and hope I don't have to use it. Pay by the minute)or a computer, but most people do and if you can save 75% the cost of mailing by establishing e-mail account mailing lists, why not? As I suggested there are some innovative ways to use this tool that associations are overlooking, some, not all. Our 2000 unit POA has a very active e-mail program. If your documents read it must be by US Mail, would you violate the covenant if you sent the notice by UPS? Some of this stuff in our documents is there simply because it is there. An amendum would change it and I would think a Board resolution could also legally amend it. After all the requirement is to notify the members, the method is not important.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Robert,

I understand your point, and I personally might agree with it, but, I tend to be black-and-white. You either abide by the rules or you don't. You don't pick and choose which ones to follow and which ones you don't. If everybody did that they would likely pick different ones and we would have a chaotic society. That's why there are rules.

I don't think there is any issue. The OP asked for information on what to use for posting notices. However, if JohnF is thinking of posting notices in a central location instead of using some other method of providing notice that is required, I think he should check first to make sure that it doesn't come back to bite him later.

Not everyone lives in the 21st century, so what MOST people have or do is not the same as what EVERYBODY has or does.

As for passing a resolution that contradicts the bylaws, you can't do it. Such resolutions are null and void, period. That's not to say that you can't amend the bylaws, so long as you don't pass an amendment that contradicts a higher authority, such as a state law.

I'm not saying that you CAN'T use email, or a posting, or a newsletter, or whatever, unless it's prohibited, but if there is a prescribed method for providing notice then that's what I'd advise someone to do. Any other method of providing notice would be in addition to that. If any owner claimed that he/she failed to receive notice and you didn't follow the prescribed method, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Maybe you can use email to provide notice to those who have email and US mail only for those that don't, or maybe you can't. I wouldn't risk assuming that a court would consider it OK if challenged on it. As to whether a court would consider delivery by UPS to be equivalent to delivery by US mail, that remains to be seen. Some courts might consider it to be equivalent, others might not. I've learned never to anticipate what a court may rule. Murphy's law always seems to come into play.

As far as email delivery goes, there's no guarantee of delivery, even if a person has email. Some people have their email spam filters set very tight so that mail only gets through if it is from specified email addresses and internet domains. You would have to make certain everyone has the filters set to allow notices to get through. Have you ever seen the notices provided by some online services that remind you to make sure your filters allow their notices to you to get through? The president of our HOA once sent a notice out from work. I never received it because my filter was set to allow email from his home email address, not from his work email address.

If there's a prescribed method for providing notice and you follow it and something goes wrong, you're off the hook. Otherwise, you're not. I think it's a caution worth noting.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 12/13/2008 4:47 AM
Posted By EdieL on 12/13/2008 4:41 AM
In our community, we get permission from the Post Office to put
flyers in the mailboxes. We call the Postmaster and let him and
our carrier know when we need to send out the flyer. They, then,
are O.K. with it.
Edie


You're lucky. You have a nice postmaster. He's not supposed to do that. Hope the postal inspectors never find out.

Bruce & Edie,

When I was treas. of my former assn, (only 49 homes) our Postman gave me permission to tack the notices on the mailboxes (we had 2). The deal was that the notices would be taken down immediately after the meeting. I obliged and there was never a problem. Then, after my term ended, the board got lax about taking down the notices. A postal inspector saw them -- the Postman was lucky not to get into trouble (he had a lot of tenure!!). Shortly thereafter the Pres. found a bulletin board to use.

BTW, it's impossible to put anything in the key-operated mailboxes installed by the Postal Service.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Mary,

Yes, I believe it. And there are other specific rules regarding mailboxes that most people may not even be aware of. The rules are spelled out in the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM 508). For example, other receptacles, such as a box for receiving your newspaper, has to meet certain requirements if it is to be attached to the same post.

A postmaster or postal carrier cannot give "permission" to attach anything to the mailbox because the permission is not theirs to give. You would think a postmaster would know better.

Here are the rules:

3.1 Basic Information for Customer Mail Receptacles
3.1.4 Clear Approach

Customers must keep the approach to their mailboxes clear of obstructions to allow safe access for delivery. If USPS employees are impeded in reaching a mail receptacle, the postmaster may withdraw delivery service.

3.2 Curbside Mailboxes
3.2.1 Manufacturer Specifications

Manufacturers of all mailboxes designed and made to be erected at the edge of a roadway or curbside of a street and to be served by a carrier from a vehicle on any city route, rural route, or highway contract route must obtain approval of their products under USPS Standard 7, Mailboxes, City and Rural Curbside. To receive these construction standards and drawings or other information about the manufacture of curbside mailboxes, write to USPS Engineering.

3.2.3 Locked Box

A mailbox with a lock must have a slot that is large enough to accommodate the customer’s normal daily mail volume. The USPS neither opens a locked box nor accepts a key for this purpose.

3.2.4 Mailbox Post

The post or other support for a curbside mailbox must be neat and of adequate strength and size. The post may not represent effigies or caricatures that tend to disparage or ridicule any person. The box may be attached to a fixed or movable arm.

3.2.6 Location

Subject to state laws and regulations, a curbside mailbox must be placed to allow safe and convenient delivery by carriers without leaving their vehicles. The box must be on the right-hand side of the road in the direction of travel of the carriers on any new rural route or highway contract route, in all cases where traffic conditions are dangerous for the carriers to drive to the left to reach the box, or where their doing so would violate traffic laws and regulations.

3.2.7 Address Identification

Every curbside mailbox must bear the following address information:

A box number, if used, inscribed in contrasting color in neat letters and numerals at least 1 inch high on the side of the box visible to the carrier’s regular approach, or on the door if boxes are grouped.

A house number if street names and house numbers have been assigned by local authorities, and the postmaster authorizes their use as a postal address. If the box is on a different street from the customer’s residence, the street name and house number must be inscribed on the box.
3.2.8 Owner’s Name

The mailbox may bear the owner’s name.

3.2.9 More Than One Family Sharing a Receptacle

If more than one family wishes to share a mail receptacle, the following standards apply:

Route and Box Number Addressing. On rural and highway contract routes authorized to use a route and box numbering system (e.g., RR 1 BOX 155), up to five families may share a single mail receptacle and use a common route and box designation. A written notice of agreement, signed by the heads of the families or individuals who want to join in the use of such box, must be filed with the postmaster at the delivery office.

3.2.11 Newspaper Receptacle

A receptacle for newspaper delivery by private carriers may be attached to the post of a curbside mailbox used by the USPS if the receptacle: a. Does not touch the mailbox or use any part of the mailbox for support. b. Does not interfere with the delivery of mail, obstruct the view of the mailbox flag, or present a hazard to carrier or vehicle. c. Does not extend beyond the front of the mailbox when the box door is closed. d. Does not display advertising, except the publication title.

3.3 Wall-Mounted Centralized Mail Receptacles
3.3.1 Manufacturer Requirements

Manufacturers of wall-mounted centralized mail receptacles used for mail delivery must receive approval under the specifications and procedures in USPS Standard 4. The specifications and other information can be obtained by writing to USPS Engineering.

3.3.2 Customer Requirements

The installation of proper equipment is required for delivery service. The type of equipment must be approved by the USPS under 3.3.1 and must be appropriate for the structure. Customers should discuss the types of approved equipment permitted for their structures with their postmaster before purchasing and installing delivery equipment.

EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
It depends on what your docs say re member or board meetings. Our bylaws state the annual members meeting must be notiifed by mail to all owners but our board is not requiredt to give any notice of its meetings. We do however (in order to make owners welcome to our board meetings) post a sign (similar to a realtor sign) at both entrances to our subdivision 48 hours in advance.
EdieL (Virginia)
Posts: 86
Posted:
Our benefits in living in a small, friendly rural area,
where people rule not gov't rules. I guess we are blessed.
Edie
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
EdieL,
Your statement above is somewhat provocative. Certainly there is some justification to prefer the rural life style, but to mix that with who rules is confusing. Just want to add that "friendly" is the applicable word. Especially in the HOA world. A friendly "rule" is most times more productive than an "unfriendly" one. We don't talk much about perception when we talk about Management or Boards.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EdieL on 12/14/2008 4:58 AM
Our benefits in living in a small, friendly rural area,
where people rule not gov't rules. I guess we are blessed.
Edie

As I said, hope the postal inspectors never find out. They won't care where you live. From my knowledge of the postal system and from reading books written by postal indpectors, they're not a bunch of friendly fellows. (Did you know that in many larger post offices there's an upper gallery with one-way windows that surrounds the work floor below so that postal inspectors can watch the employees?) If discovered, your postmaster could be in trouble. Of course, if he denies he ever gave permission . . . . . .
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EdieL on 12/14/2008 4:58 AM
Our benefits in living in a small, friendly rural area,
where people rule not gov't rules. I guess we are blessed.
Edie

Edie,

I find your remark quite interesting. I lived in VA many years ago. It, too, was ". . .a small, friendly rural area". However, I never thought I "ruled" anything, except perhaps my own property (no HOA!) and my children!! All my neighbors were law-abiding citizens and I doubt any of them thought they "ruled" anyone or anything either. All I can say is this: enjoy it while it lasts.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 12/14/2008 6:24 AM
Posted By EdieL on 12/14/2008 4:58 AM
Our benefits in living in a small, friendly rural area,
where people rule not gov't rules. I guess we are blessed.
Edie


As I said, hope the postal inspectors never find out. They won't care where you live. From my knowledge of the postal system and from reading books written by postal indpectors, they're not a bunch of friendly fellows. (Did you know that in many larger post offices there's an upper gallery with one-way windows that surrounds the work floor below so that postal inspectors can watch the employees?) If discovered, your postmaster could be in trouble. Of course, if he denies he ever gave permission . . . . . .

And, if you don't know what the Postal Inspection Service is, it's a federal law enforcement agency similar to the FBI. These guys carry badges and they are armed (because they do deal with violent crimes).

You can learn more about them at:

http://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/

and, if you want to know about their revenue protection efforts, go to:

http://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/MailFraud/fraudschemes/revenuefraud/RevenueFraud.aspx

Pay particular attention to the fifth bullet down on that page.

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