Voluntary Association

You asked: "how do we convince these people who have had a 50 year free ride to sign on?"

People take action if you hit their kids or their pocketbook.

How is the lake and dam and other common areas tied to the property values of the entire subdivision? Who wants to buy a home that is located near or on a dried up lake? In short, only when the homewowner can see that he has a vested interest in the community will be contribute to it.

You have a huge challenge, and in this economy, I think you have at least 3 years before people will even listen to the idea of taking on mandatory obligations, much less things that are on their last leg (the dam).

In the meantime, get the owner to take more responsiblity. The residents are not going to "volunteer" to take care of someone else's things for long.

Well, Sarah, that is the nature of a voluntary assn. Frankly, I've always wondered why the few that pay continue to do so when the majority are getting a free ride.

Thanks for responding, just thought you might have had some insight as to why the voluntary assoc. in Mi seemed to run smoother. I do know at one point the realtors in the area were tired of some HOA being mandatory and others were not so they just made sure that everyone who wanted to sell a home or was buying a home were up to date with the dues. There was a definate increase in members to be sure after this action. We asked the realtors association here if they would send a notice to their members that this development has a voluntary assoc. and they refused. We have a real problem with new residents moving in and no one ever mentions a HOA until the Welcome Committee arrives on their doorstep and often times they are not greeted so warmly as one might think!

Our association in Michigan (single family homes) is voluntary (built 20 years ago). Our dues are currently $50 a year but the letter that came this year said they want to increase the fee but are holding a year because of the economy. Ten years ago when I moved here they were $15.

Frankly, I am not paying more than $50 a year for a printed directory, bows on the street signs at Christmas and flowers at the entrances. All this while I have a 20 year old rotted wooden fence in my backyard that they "maintain" but can't afford to replace.

The key to show people VALUE! Many people, especially those deep in the sub, are not interested in a beautification projects and block parties.

Also, it is hard to sell people on things like new street signs and entrances when we here in Michigan, have seen the value of our homes plummet.

I guess Robert said it all when he said"people will be people" I probably could have answered my own question as well if I considered that statement. I do think a jump from $15.to $50 is steep especially in these times but its not the bows and the flowers that are most likely the culpret it is the price of doing business,insurance rates for one have skyrocketed and I am sure if you look at the annual expense report you will see that very necessary albeit evil expense has increased considerably in the past 10 years.
I have been an active member in my homeowners association because I do value the benefits and thought everyone who moved into a development with amenities would definately be aware that someone had to pay for their upkeep anad wheter you use them or not they are still reflective in your property values. Well you know what they say about those who ass u me.
Also when times are good people don't think twice about throwing away $5 for a cup of coffee from the local coffe boutique but if times turn and we find ourselves sipping coffe on a stool at the local diner we wonder why it costs a dollar?!! Funny,people will be people and evryone has different priorites. I figure the same goes for the decrepit fence in your back yard. It is in your backyard why should the HOA care and maintain/replace it? If this is a fence placed bty the developer as part of a commons area then technically it is their responsibility but since its way back where only you see it, it is not a high priority. Have you attended any HOA meetings to ask why no more than maintenance has been done to this fence? Have you offered any constructive solutions? Yo do have this right and as a homeowner the responsibilty to do so.
I have tried to help encourage folks to realise that if we are not to continue to loose value we need to show some pride and initiative ourselves. Everyone is looking for govt handouts these days this development included, the only problem with the govt is that the govt is you! Think about it, what is the difference if you pay an extra $10 to the HOA or you have the local govt raise taxes or impose an assesment for $20 since it takes a whole lot more paperwork and time when the govt gets involved?? Remember you are the govt they are your tax dollars. Speak up and say what your priorities are to the HOA and encourage other homeowners to do the same. You had to be of like minds to settle in the same neighborhood I am sure you can't be that far off in resolving your fence issue. I can't imagine it would cost anything to remove it and when the economy turns around to pursue a replacement. Thanks to all who have responded it is always good to hear others views to inspire our own thoughts.

Aha,
The real tiger has awoken and is starting to growl in the right direction. Sarah, I think your post revealed great thought and good observations, I think your neck of the woods is safe and could nopt agree more, these are scary times for everyone except those that don't care. I also believe we will be in a far better place come Christmas 2009.

Ellen,
I think your point is well taken. It does however point out to some degree what a mess we can make out of things when we put our mind to it. I am afraid that a lot of these problems we find ourselves in with ill-defined benefits are products of a hired Bottom line attorney to promote, save, achieve specific monetary goals of the guy that has hired him and they are both gone when the rubber hits the road and extends for a long long time.

Robert,

I must disagree with you on this one. Even if you "educate" the present owners what about all the folks who purchase in the future? The only way to solve this is to take all necessary steps to establish a legitimate HOA..not an easy task. Meanwhile the owners may or may not want to pay into the improvements they want made and that's how it should be.

PS as far as the realtors were concerned when the disclosure laws came about not everyone was forthcomming aas to what HOA were tied to the deed and which were not and there was a law suit because a realtor sold a property where it was not disclosed that there was a HOA and the buyer was miffed and took it out on the realty co. who had deeper pockets than the homeowner who did not disclose this fact.
All we asked was because we are in an area where realty agents are not familiar with that they just let their members know that ther is a HOA here voluntary as it may be so that new owners are not shocked when a welcomming committee just trying to do a good deed gets cursed at.Totally uncalled for

Sarah,
Your request seems reasonable, but I am afraid that the realtors are in business and as the sub prime market mess that is bringing down one corporation after another, is part of that business process, we can be very cautious that if you are buying you don't make the same mistake again. There is plenty of blame to go around and if you are advocating a sort of "Sunshine Laws" for property transactions I would second that and include the Buyers and sellers, along with anyone else that touches the transfer records. But our society seems to be in some area, a "don't ask, don't tell society."

Ellen,
To answer your question and being specific for SC, but I do believe it is true with all states.
Every Business, be it profit or non profit has to be registered with the state and the listing can be pulled up on internet.

In addition, I know it is true in SC, all HOA's and Condos have to be registered at the time of activity into the public domain, when they are formed and lots are sold, all the individual associations have to be registered at the County Courthouse. It is not difficult to find, just a click away. As far as closing agents are concerned, they chase a different rabbit, all they want to get paid for is the legal transfer of property.

Probably the very best thing that could happen is enforcement of the requirements when someone purchases a unit in an HOA. I suspect they are requirements most places that this information is divulged at closing (at least), and the buyer and seller both attest to this notification. Certainly it should be a required procedure (law).

Ellen I understand your confusion and may be able to shed some light.
HOA are a relatively new concept and not all states even have any laws on the books regarding them Folrida is an exception. That said a little history lesson.
Back in the day before subdivisions/developments what ever your colloquialism is and condominiums. If someone wanted to build a house they went to the closest realty agent,sometimes the landowner himself and purchased the land then he had to consult with the local govt for their zoning and building restrictions as to how his house had to be situated on the land how would he provide water,well or city/rural hookup sewar or septic and so on. When the building boom hit just after the end WWII and thousands of GI's were all expected home any day with cash in hand a few businessmen had a plan. They would take that nice parcel of flat land out on the edge of town carve in new streets,bring in water and sewer lines,build several designs of complimentary styles and price ranges of homes and to make sure that everyone kept the place up they would add restrictions to the deeds,no clothes lines, no living in the basement while the home was being built(a very common occurence back then) but no time for that now these homes were going up fast! no sheds- a nice way of saying no chicken coops also another popular sideyard item of the time.You get the idea. So now you know how the first subdivision was born including its restrictions. Ok well this being the USofA where no one is satisfied unless they are outdoing the other guy, some developers found that the former farmers land has a stream running through it and if we dig a hole here put in a dam there we can get more money for our lots because there is a lake and we fill it with fish, the kids can swim, again you get the picture.Some of these folks thought ahead and said all these extras will need to be taken care of once I leave the project and go on to the next so a HOA became part of the deed restrictions. But as you know some builders/developers are smarter than others and since this was all new HOA being mentioned in the deed was rather hit or miss.Remember there are no laws until someone runs into a problem and goes to the govt to solve it.The way homeowners came up with their own idea of a HOA stemmed from collectively wanting to see improvements to what the developer laid out. In our instance they petioned the USPostal Service that they could only deliver mail to our front door mailboxes or in many cases mail slots! How many of you pick up your mail from a collection of boxes at the end of the street? This was a group of people who already belonged to the Kiwanis,the Moose,&Elks Club, The VFW The PTA the Mens or Womens society at Church, how many of you belong to any such organization today? Back then it was customary to belong to at least several, again you get the picture even though it is painted in sepia tones. These were also the days when major big money deals were not only sealed but seen through on nothing more than a handshake!! Amazing isn't it. Fast forward about 30/40 years.Condos are the rage,less land is available,no more taking care of a house even though it looks like one, you can work all day disco all night just be sure to send in the check to your HOA along with your mortgage payment and all is well.Oh by the way don't get any smart ideas of painting your front door red so you don't end up in bed with Mr. and Mrs. Jones down the street after partying all night, darn all these things look the same in the dark thought you were in your condo not the Joneses! Nope the HOA only allows the doors to be painted a subtle shade of brown or green. Well Mr.&Mrs. Jones file a complaint along with their unwelcome houseguest and neighbor with the HOA that this would have never happened if you just let him paint his door red when he wanted too! Well I am sure you can see from the colorful tone of the situation where this one is going,yep straight to court. And so it goes Jones and Brown vs. the HOA. And so the courts never have to face these folks again they draft a law and so it goes. Today there are still only a handful of states that have laws regarding HOA on the books Forida being one of the early leaders. Also many of the states that do have laws on the books only pertain to condominiums not single family homes and just wait when the feathers hit the fan with cluster housing!! I just can't wait. Now maybe you can understand where we are all comming from and why this forum is so popular

If the buyer is paying for title ins. that fact should be stated in the report. Of course, some people stupidly do not purchase title ins.!!

Robert,

A closing agent does not assume a seller will pass along info as to whether their property belongs to a HOA. It's up to the agent to check title work and if HOS docs are recorded to contact the association to make certain assessments are up to date as well as anything else (liens,etc.) that affects the property. Anything affecting the property adversely must be cured prior to closing.

Ellen,
I am so glad you are posting here.

Now for the bad part: I have been wanting to ask this question and receive a definitive answer for a long time.

I have always contended that our condo management must receive inquires regarding the sale of property by the folks doing the closing and the mortgaging. The answer is fuzzy from my condo manager. I requested formally to see the information that the lenders, primarily, request that helps them justify the Loan. Also, I expect many prospective buyers might inquire of the manager, information that they would like regarding the associations stability.
The board doesn't see any problem with what I was told but I do. The manager stated to me that there is no standard form or routine that is followed, some lenders might ask detailed information so not and some won't bother. Then he went on to say he will give out information over the phone in order to assisst the seller on the property (Owner) Something about this seems twisted, or maybe I am.
I also don't believe the management has any obligation to a seller that would entail "Help" from the management. Information would be an obligation not an elective "Help>"

Ellen,
Thanks for your reply, you seem very hands on knowledgeable, a good thing.
This "help" is more or less a play by our manager to just demonsrate he has the best interests of all owners at heart. He is a private manager and does some things very well, is far from a dummy, and has a wide range of knowledge. I have worked with him over the years and I suppose we can see each others warts. I certainly don't think he is operating as any kind of realator , although been through that once years ago. Like all of us we tend at times to do whatever seems best for us at the moment and then at a later time come up with explanations that sound good if you don't look too closely at the problem.

I would be interested in finding out what is generally accepted that the Condo managment (in our case) routinely provides to the lender or what ever some are called now since the big debacle with the sub prime mess. Used to be you could cover all these lenders under, Bank or Mortgage Co. I don't think we have got a hold of that problem yet and it is still going on with some re-financing. Are there standard forms the lenders submit to the Condo and where could I get a copy or is this kind of information just a casual part of a closing. I have questioned some lender banks and they don't give me nothing. Wouldn't any information have to be given in writing? I have a problem with the management saying to an owner this kind of information is propriority and other owners can't get it, but they can give it out over the phone. Most of the time when I chase something down to this impasse and question the board they seem to feel I am just trying to prove a point and a sort of who cares attitude.