What a Mess!!!!

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Hi, I am new the HOATalk. I am on the board of our HOA - 32 units in Colorado. We are arranged into 8 two-story fourplexes.

We have on GIANT mess. About 4 months ago an owner who was not happy with us moved and rented to people who break nearly every rule. The major issue is noise. They have a great deal of company who come at all hours (four residents who also work odd hours). They are not considerate of other residents - car door slamming. laughing and talking, engine revving, etc. These renters are about to drive the neighbors next them crazy. The neighbors are GREAT people who obey every rule. The only problem is that the husband, who is 65y/o, has a bad temper and a hair trigger. He has engaged the renters twice with the last time leading to an altercation. Thankfully he won. One of the police officers who responded told my 81y/o mother - lives with me - that the siutation concerned him because it was something that could really escalate.

The landlady has been contacted a number of times and always accuses the other residents of not being nice to her tenants and making everything up. After the altercation we sent her a letter and asked to follow-up with her coming to our regular meeting - about a week later. She showed up with her boyfriend and it was again all denials and them trying to argue.

At this writing she finally did ask her tenants to behave and we have spoken to the neighbor and asked him to keep a log of any annoyances and to call the police for anything major...DO NOT approach the neighbors.

There is nothing worst than a neighbor dispute. Throw the uncooperative owner/landlord into the equation.... This is REALLY a mess. Any ideas would be welcome. Thanks, I am at my wits end. Ironically, I was asked to take the board position to "keep the seat warm" until the election in January. The board seat was vacated by the owner/landlord!!!

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Dwight,

First of all, as a board member you should realize that you are not required to settle disputes between members of the assn. The BOD only needs to become involved if a violation of the covenants occur. If your covenants have a "noise" violation, then you can send the offending member a violation notice for that. However, I don't know that talking loud and/or slamming car doors would qualify! I think this situation is best left to the local police to control. If the renter is violent, the member can obtain an order of protection. Be careful what the BOD becomes involved in!

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

In our association it is the DUTY of the board to ensure that all rules are followed. I'm sure they have "noise" rules. Yes, the police should be used when necessary....and make certain every call and action by them is documented.

We have a three step process for rule enforcement:

1. Send a letter to the owner outlining the violation and asking for compliance.

2. Send a second letter to the owner, both regular mail and certified mail, demanding compliance. The second letter also states that the violations must be corrected by such-and-such a date. It further states that after that date it will be turned over to our association attorney and that they will pay all legal fees.

When our association attorney writes his letter to the owner he states the same thing...that he will bring legal action and they will be responsible for all court costs and legal fees.

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

That's pretty much where we are right now. We have to enforce the rules.

We have sent a letter and met with the landlord in person. They parked across the street in their big black Lincoln Navigator for about three night until 10pm and they saw and heard nothing. Our VP saw them and told them the tenants weren't going to do anything with them parked across the street!

I am getting off the board because the others feel we can to this without legal assistance and I think they are crazy!

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

Dwight---don't give up yet, if you really feel that rule enforcment is important. It sounds like your association needs you. Let them sit out there every night; if that is what it takes to make the renters comply. Do you have any video cameras? Or recorders?

We recently went through this is a rule violator that keeps bringing a noisy motorcycle on the property. (Our rules prohibit motorcycles and it's also a noise rule violation) He only shows up when the owners aren't around. So we took pictures with a date and time stamp on it.

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I am more worried about getting sued . At the meeting with the owners I told them that the tenants got a lot of "unusual traffic". That is because the neighbor across the street, who sees the unit directly, told me. I have seen a lot of people go in and out but, she has the direct view. It is these people coming and going that cause most of the noise problems - plus all the loud laughing and talking on the patio. The landlady asked, "are you accusing them of doing drugs?" and I said "no, I said they get a lot of unusual traffic". Later she said are you insinuating that they are selling drugs and I said "no, they get a lot of unusual traffic". What the people do over there is beyond the scope of my position.

I am sorry I worded it that way. I should have said they get a lot of guests or something. There is a large insurance policy on the board so I guess I would be covered under that if they chose to try and get me for defamation of character or something out of spite. We could also sue her for making the homeowners suffer for four months since the board tried to talk to her many times. Any thoughts on the above?

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DwightD on 11/26/2008 5:03 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I am more worried about getting sued . At the meeting with the owners I told them that the tenants got a lot of "unusual traffic". That is because the neighbor across the street, who sees the unit directly, told me. I have seen a lot of people go in and out but, she has the direct view. It is these people coming and going that cause most of the noise problems - plus all the loud laughing and talking on the patio. The landlady asked, "are you accusing them of doing drugs?" and I said "no, I said they get a lot of unusual traffic". Later she said are you insinuating that they are selling drugs and I said "no, they get a lot of unusual traffic". What the people do over there is beyond the scope of my position.

I am sorry I worded it that way. I should have said they get a lot of guests or something. There is a large insurance policy on the board so I guess I would be covered under that if they chose to try and get me for defamation of character or something out of spite. We could also sue her for making the homeowners suffer for four months since the board tried to talk to her many times. Any thoughts on the above?

In our local area. If the police is called a certain amount of times.. I do believe it's 3 in a 6 month period.. the noise offenders automatically get a 998 dollar ticketed fine.. The catch is he police have to walk up hearing the noise, party ect t proove it's claim. As odd as it is, our new neighbors below us had the cops called 2 times in a 2 week period. The last visit out.. the police told them 1 more time and its an almost 1K fine. Guess who has been the quietiest units of them all now?

Just for the record we called the landlord to our last meeting. She claims her tenants are NOT the ones making noise.. she said this to the board. I piped in, I think you should look at the police report from Sunday. The police walked to the unit, the door was open, the stench of marijuana and music loud enough to be heard from the lobby... she didn't know what to say.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DwightD on 11/26/2008 5:03 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I am more worried about getting sued . At the meeting with the owners I told them that the tenants got a lot of "unusual traffic". That is because the neighbor across the street, who sees the unit directly, told me. I have seen a lot of people go in and out but, she has the direct view. It is these people coming and going that cause most of the noise problems - plus all the loud laughing and talking on the patio. The landlady asked, "are you accusing them of doing drugs?" and I said "no, I said they get a lot of unusual traffic". Later she said are you insinuating that they are selling drugs and I said "no, they get a lot of unusual traffic". What the people do over there is beyond the scope of my position.

I am sorry I worded it that way. I should have said they get a lot of guests or something. There is a large insurance policy on the board so I guess I would be covered under that if they chose to try and get me for defamation of character or something out of spite. We could also sue her for making the homeowners suffer for four months since the board tried to talk to her many times. Any thoughts on the above?

In our local area. If the police is called a certain amount of times.. I do believe it's 3 in a 6 month period.. the noise offenders automatically get a 998 dollar ticketed fine.. The catch is he police have to walk up hearing the noise, party ect t proove it's claim. As odd as it is, our new neighbors below us had the cops called 2 times in a 2 week period. The last visit out.. the police told them 1 more time and its an almost 1K fine. Guess who has been the quietiest units of them all now?

Just for the record we called the landlord to our last meeting. She claims her tenants are NOT the ones making noise.. she said this to the board. I piped in, I think you should look at the police report from Sunday. The police walked to the unit, the door was open, the stench of marijuana and music loud enough to be heard from the lobby... she didn't know what to say.

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

Hmmmmm.........Dwight, I wouldn't worry about the Board being sued....as long as you're following your documents.

Another thought to control the activity in your neighborhood...

Our local Sherrif's Department has a website to report "illegal" or "suspicious" activity. Yours may too.

We reported (descretely) on their website the activity that we thought was drug related. It took about six months (don't give up) but they raided the place and arrested four people in there for related drug charges.

It's a long, time-consuming process. But in the end it's for the betterment for the entire association. Just keep giving information and information and information....describe EVERYTHING that is happening at that address.

It's also better because those of us who are law-abiding, concerned citizens always suffer retaliation....from the scum-bags. they're criminal and don't care who they take out.

To your neighbors who are suffering the WORST from being right next door--PLEASE advise them to never confront them...but to instead contact the law enforcment. But ALSO TELL THEM---that when they call the cops to tell the cops, to NOT tell them who complained!!! The cops WILL do that and say they've received SEVERAL complaints.

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

You are giving me great advice, Anna, and I appreciate it!

I checked and for a defamation lawsuit to be filed the statement has to be false. Mine was true and can be backed up by several witnesses - one lives directly across from the unit and can see everything.

I have also told the neighbors to DOCUMENT everything!!! We have the noise pretty much under control at the moment but, I don't think the calm will last long - I wish it would. They are still in violation of at least two rules and regs - one for a vehicle they don't drive and the other for have two families in the unit.

It's amazing but, the company/noise issue stopped about the time the firm letter to the landlady went out. It was like someome flipped a switch. I got up one Saturday and all Hell was breaking lose over there. A white pickup would back in, pull out, be gone about 10 minutes, return...this went on and on.

I think there were even more people living over there. This community has what can only be described as a sub-culture. We have a pretty bad meth problem. These people just drift around and crash and move on when they become obvious. They have what can only be described as flop houses that they just migrate between. This is a nice area but, it has happened twice before in the 14 years I have lived here.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Dwight,
Anna says not to worry about being sued as long as you are right with your documents. Can't stress being confident about what all your documents say. Once you are comfortable with that, you may find it beneficial to have them sue you as opposed to suing them. If you can get them to do that, it is like throwing Brer Rabbit in the Brier patch.

I would also caution that it is what it is, and not a personal affront to you. You do the steps, you wait for the gears to turn and in the meantime keep good records.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Dwight,

I still stand on my initial suggestion to not get involved in member disputes. You only have the word of this one member that the renters are noisy. The member should be calling the P.D. each time she thinks the renters are being noisy. Send violation notices for the 2 other issues they are in violation of but stay out of the noise issue unless you have substantiated proof. As I said earlier, talking loud and banging car doors, IMO, does not equate to a noise issue. Unless, that is, the board wants to go one step further to define what being noisy means! Regarding the issue of whether or not there is drug dealing going on, if the board wants to take the time and effort to document the license plate nr's and time of each coming and going and report that to the P.D. for their investigation, so be it. But, to make insinuating remarks does no good whatsoever and will only cause to anger the renters and their landlord.

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertR1 on 11/27/2008 12:07 AM
Dwight,
Anna says not to worry about being sued as long as you are right with your documents. Can't stress being confident about what all your documents say. Once you are comfortable with that, you may find it beneficial to have them sue you as opposed to suing them. If you can get them to do that, it is like throwing Brer Rabbit in the Brier patch.

I would also caution that it is what it is, and not a personal affront to you. You do the steps, you wait for the gears to turn and in the meantime keep good records.

Quote:

Posted By MaryA1 on 11/27/2008 7:33 AM
Dwight,

I still stand on my initial suggestion to not get involved in member disputes. You only have the word of this one member that the renters are noisy. The member should be calling the P.D. each time she thinks the renters are being noisy. Send violation notices for the 2 other issues they are in violation of but stay out of the noise issue unless you have substantiated proof. As I said earlier, talking loud and banging car doors, IMO, does not equate to a noise issue. Unless, that is, the board wants to go one step further to define what being noisy means! Regarding the issue of whether or not there is drug dealing going on, if the board wants to take the time and effort to document the license plate nr's and time of each coming and going and report that to the P.D. for their investigation, so be it. But, to make insinuating remarks does no good whatsoever and will only cause to anger the renters and their landlord.

I am agreeing with both of you on this one. We have gotten the noise under control for now and we are waiting and documenting. I saw what looked to be the landlords across the street last night backed in. They are documenting our "false alegations". This time they were in a Yukon or Tahoe. Either the black Navigator is in the garage or they are renting a vehicle to "go under cover". Only problem is, GM products have daytime running lights and Twighlight Sentinel. When you have the engine on the lights are on! LOL!!!

I looked over there and thought how stupid it was when all they have to do is talk to us. But, if they want to go to all the trouble to prove us wrong, rather than work together, than I feel sorry for them.

I also agree with Robert. Just sit back and let them make the next move. This woman's ego has not done her any good in this issue. All she had to do was talk to us.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

We generally avoid getting into neighbor disputes. It's usually a no-win scenario.

But we have a provision in our CC&Rs that, from time to time, a neighbor will pull out and use as part of their complaint against another neighbor:

"Section 2. Nuisances. No noxious or offensive trade or activity shall be conducted on any lot, nor shall anything be done which may be or become an annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood."

It's that ". . . nor shall anything be done which may be or become an annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood."

Oy. That's so wide open and vague, and can be VERY subjective. . .but, as you can see, it doesn't restrict the problem to just simply "noise."

What we have done in the handful of situations where this type of thing has come up is to send the notice to the neighbor who is doing the "offensive" activity.

Usually we get the whole "he said/she said" rebuttal schtick.

But then we put the neighbors in touch with a local organization that handles conflict resolution, including neighbor disputes. Our local metro government has a program that will pay for it.

Fortunately, the situations have resolved before anyone actually used it.

Generally it was a teenager in the house that was causing the problems.

But I do agree with the other posters who say not to worry about getting sued. That is a VERY common threat from people who are on the receiving end of violation notices. Defamation, harassment, selective enforcement, these terms get thrown around like confetti, and are generally just being used to either intimidate or bluff you.

If you can document your process, then you really have nothing to worry about even if they DO follow through.

One thing that you might want to make sure you keep in mind, it will be in your HOA's best interest to keep your violation notices and complaint process as free of emotionally charged rhetoric as possible.

Be very boring, but detailed in documenting the violations. This isn't personal, even though people who receive the violation notices TAKE it personally, it's a matter of protecting the integrity of the documents. You receive complaints of alleged violations, the alleged violations are confirmed or verified, you are simply following through on the violation enforcement process in your documents.

They have a choice to either comply or not comply.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Dwight,

Slightly off-topic, but indulge me.

Navigator. Tahoe. Yukon.

I'm guessing these are added as code words, I'm not certain of the purpose, but will guess:

1. You're an anti-SUV/Truckite, or;
2. The vehicles are intended as pejorative indicators, or;
3. I'm seeing something there when there is no "there" there.

Just curious.

But aside from that, I agree with others that good records need be kept, and that the transactions with the offenders should be kept as impersonal as possible.

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnK3 on 11/28/2008 8:25 AM
Dwight,

Slightly off-topic, but indulge me.

Navigator. Tahoe. Yukon.

I'm guessing these are added as code words, I'm not certain of the purpose, but will guess:

1. You're an anti-SUV/Truckite, or;
2. The vehicles are intended as pejorative indicators, or;
3. I'm seeing something there when there is no "there" there.

Just curious.

But aside from that, I agree with others that good records need be kept, and that the transactions with the offenders should be kept as impersonal as possible.

John, the only reason I mentioned the vehicles is because the landlady said she was going to watch the place and "document the false alegations".

1) We have tried to tell her that for now the problem seems to be under control.

2) They are doing their "surveilance in vehicles SO obvious that it is laughable. As our VP told them, they won't do anything if they know you're around. They always back in and face the unit. The grill on that Navigator glows like a beacon under the street lights. They were sitting across the street in the GM SUV the other night with the engine ldling because it is cold here. GM vehicles have DLR's that come on anytime the engine is running. They might as well just yell we're here!!!

We don't have any vehicle restrictions other than requiring that they be legal parked, registered and regularly used. The tenant are also in violation of the latter (and notified) but, that is just one more thing to toss in. The noise was the major issue.

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 11/28/2008 7:42 AM
We generally avoid getting into neighbor disputes. It's usually a no-win scenario.

But we have a provision in our CC&Rs that, from time to time, a neighbor will pull out and use as part of their complaint against another neighbor:

"Section 2. Nuisances. No noxious or offensive trade or activity shall be conducted on any lot, nor shall anything be done which may be or become an annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood."

It's that ". . . nor shall anything be done which may be or become an annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood."

Oy. That's so wide open and vague, and can be VERY subjective. . .but, as you can see, it doesn't restrict the problem to just simply "noise."

What we have done in the handful of situations where this type of thing has come up is to send the notice to the neighbor who is doing the "offensive" activity.

Usually we get the whole "he said/she said" rebuttal schtick.

But then we put the neighbors in touch with a local organization that handles conflict resolution, including neighbor disputes. Our local metro government has a program that will pay for it.

Fortunately, the situations have resolved before anyone actually used it.

Generally it was a teenager in the house that was causing the problems.

But I do agree with the other posters who say not to worry about getting sued. That is a VERY common threat from people who are on the receiving end of violation notices. Defamation, harassment, selective enforcement, these terms get thrown around like confetti, and are generally just being used to either intimidate or bluff you.

If you can document your process, then you really have nothing to worry about even if they DO follow through.

One thing that you might want to make sure you keep in mind, it will be in your HOA's best interest to keep your violation notices and complaint process as free of emotionally charged rhetoric as possible.

Be very boring, but detailed in documenting the violations. This isn't personal, even though people who receive the violation notices TAKE it personally, it's a matter of protecting the integrity of the documents. You receive complaints of alleged violations, the alleged violations are confirmed or verified, you are simply following through on the violation enforcement process in your documents.

They have a choice to either comply or not comply.

Thanks for the reasurance. I feel the same way.

I worked in the lodging industry for 12 miserable years and I always found that the people who had NO respect for anyone else's rights were always screaming about their own.

DwightD (Colorado)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnK3 on 11/28/2008 8:25 AM
Dwight,

Slightly off-topic, but indulge me.

Navigator. Tahoe. Yukon.

I'm guessing these are added as code words, I'm not certain of the purpose, but will guess:

1. You're an anti-SUV/Truckite, or;
2. The vehicles are intended as pejorative indicators, or;
3. I'm seeing something there when there is no "there" there.

Just curious.

But aside from that, I agree with others that good records need be kept, and that the transactions with the offenders should be kept as impersonal as possible.

John, one more thing to add to his regarding trucks.

The man and his son both work in the energy industry - we are having a natural gas boom in this area. The father has a Ford F250 diesel company truck and the son is picked up someone driving a similar truck. These trucks make noise, as diesel trucks do.

I have never heard one complaint about the trucks nor do I have one. A man has to make a living and, in this case, his living requires the use of a diesel truck. This is an honest and legitimate noise whether it occasinally disturbs people or not.

The noise problems we are addressing really fall under common sense and respect. Most of these problem noises are created by the large number of people from outside the complex who come to visit. My guess is that someone inside the unit - we really aren't sure how many are living there - has gotten involved with a bad element. Be that as it may, it is only the noise and problems they cause that concern the board. Any other issues would have to be addressed by the police.