Flags not in our CCR or R&R, follow Florida 720?

Started by DanaA • 47 replies • 3701 views

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DanaA (Florida)
Posts: 117

Posted:

Quick question. We have absolutely no mention of flag flying do's and don'ts in our documents. A resident last week decided to fly a flag on his flagpole of his national origin, which is other than United States. Caused a big uproar by neighbors. Florida Statute 720 mandates that residents be allowed to fly American flag, etc. No protection for foreign flags in that Statute. Can we follow that?

SusannaM (Florida)
Posts: 366

Posted:

That's interesting....I'd venture to say no foreign flags expect at the UN, at an embassy or consulate.

RW1 (Texas)
Posts: 149

Posted:

FL720 exclusively preserves the right to fly/display the: American flag, the Florida state flag, and the flags of the 5 Armed forces.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

sorry, but without rules to prohibit the flying of a flag, how do you propose to tell this person he can't fly his? What rule is e breaking?

Florida law limits restrictions on display of US flags, but it ends there. It doesn't forbid the flying of other nation's flags, and if your own rules don't speak to it, i think you are up a creek without a signal flag.

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

But maybe it falls into another catagory of their rules? No lawn ornaments; no banners; no flags? The Florida laws became very specific about this because people were being denied the right to fly AMERICAN flags. Until a law is made that addresses other nations flags I'd tell him to take it down. He has a right to fly an American flag but no laws allow anyone to fly a flag from another nation. Yet.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AnnaD2 on 11/07/2008 4:45 AM
But maybe it falls into another catagory of their rules? No lawn ornaments; no banners; no flags? The Florida laws became very specific about this because people were being denied the right to fly AMERICAN flags. Until a law is made that addresses other nations flags I'd tell him to take it down. He has a right to fly an American flag but no laws allow anyone to fly a flag from another nation. Yet.

Why make a big deal over this. Does it really matter if it is a U. S. flag or the flag of another nation? How does this realistically impact the homeowners association. Why not give the homeowner the benefit of neighborliness and acceptance. This sounds and looks so petty and immature.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Dana,
Because your documents DO NOT address the flying of flags, then there is no way that you can enforce against this guy. Sorry, but 720 only addresses the U.S, Fl, and armed forces flags. So if the Greek or whatever he is, wants his flag to fly, it is something that you have to live with for now until you can AMEND AND PASS a new restriction.

SusannaM (Florida)
Posts: 366

Posted:

I'd check the FL Legislature (not 720) about this sensitive issue and go from there.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonnaS on 11/07/2008 6:46 AM

Dana,
Because your documents DO NOT address the flying of flags, then there is no way that you can enforce against this guy. Sorry, but 720 only addresses the U.S, Fl, and armed forces flags. So if the Greek or whatever he is, wants his flag to fly, it is something that you have to live with for now until you can AMEND AND PASS a new restriction.

Donna,

I generally agree with you, but I have to disagree on this one. The FL statute tells you what flags you CAN fly -- period. If the statute had to list every flag you cannot fly it would be 20 pages long! IMO, if the flag you want to fly isn't listed, it cannot be flown to be IAW the statute.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Mary,
I don't know about this one but as I interpret the Statute, it does not specify what flags can fly but it does state that a HOA cannot ban the flying of the U.S. flag.

from 720;3075---This is the entire paragraph

"(3) Homeowners' association documents, including declarations of covenants, articles of incorporation, or bylaws, may not preclude the display of one portable, removable United States flag by property owners. However, the flag must be displayed in a respectful manner, consistent with Title 36 U.S.C. chapter 10.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonnaS on 11/07/2008 7:59 AM

Mary,
I don't know about this one but as I interpret the Statute, it does not specify what flags can fly but it does state that a HOA cannot ban the flying of the U.S. flag.

from 720;3075---This is the entire paragraph

"(3) Homeowners' association documents, including declarations of covenants, articles of incorporation, or bylaws, may not preclude the display of one portable, removable United States flag by property owners. However, the flag must be displayed in a respectful manner, consistent with Title 36 U.S.C. chapter 10.

Donna,

Well, in reading the exact wording of the statute only reinforces my position. The statute tells you what you cannot ban but it doesn't say what you can ban. Therefore, IMO, any flag that is not listed as not being able to be banned, can be banned. (Is that clear? LOL)

FYI, here's what RW says is stated in the FL law: "FL720 exclusively preserves the right to fly/display the: American flag, the Florida state flag, and the flags of the 5 Armed forces."

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

Mary - the HOA can ban the flags of other nations, but this HOA has not done so. As the OP stated, their CC&Rs don't say anything about flags. So unless there is something else in the docs about lawn ornaments or banners or similar, then there is nothing that says this homeowner can't fly his flag.

The HOA can follow their process to amend their docs to include a restriction on flying flags (and can you imagine the media storm if they do?), but until they do so the Board can't just arbitrarily tell this homeowner to take it down. And as has been stated here before, the Board can't just pass a new rule about it unless there is something in the docs that gives the Board the power to pass that type of rule.

GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131

Posted:

We had the same situation in our community in Newport Beach, CA. The board members went to the City and they found out that the homeowner had the right to display his Israel Flag.

This homeowner have been displaying his Country's flag for three years now. It is legal in California.

I believe that is the same thing with satellite dishes and solar systems.

SusannaM (Florida)
Posts: 366

Posted:

All,
this issue of a foreign flag displayed in a community has very little to do with FL 720. The OP has to check first state of FL laws in general, and then the US Constitution, Supreme Court cases, etc. before proceeding.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Quote:

I may be wrong, but i believe there's a big law that allows it, right there under the Constitution, the very first amendment.

I may give away that right by dint of contract with a private party (hoa), but it's still my right.

GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131

Posted:

IT IS THE RIGHT OF A HOMEOWNER TO HAVE A FLAG OF ANOTHER COUNTRY OUTSIDE THEIR PROPERTY.

IT MAY NOT LOOK NICE BUT WE HAVE TO BE TOLERANT WITH THIS LAW.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GordonD1 on 11/07/2008 10:34 AM
IT IS THE RIGHT OF A HOMEOWNER TO HAVE A FLAG OF ANOTHER COUNTRY OUTSIDE THEIR PROPERTY.

IT MAY NOT LOOK NICE BUT WE HAVE TO BE TOLERANT WITH THIS LAW.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Unless they've waived their rights, yes?

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Johnk3

Yup... unless they waive those rights through private contract.

All Florida law does is say that you cannot waive those rights with regards to certain (US) flags.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Susanna,
I did a check of Fl legislation laws on flags and there are NONE other than NO flag may fly higher than the U.S. flag. That is the same as the U.S laws.

For Mary, I posted the entire Fl Statute on flag restrictions within a HOA. I do not see anyplace where anyone may not fly a flag of another country. UNLESS the HOA has rules or bylaws against such flying them as they cannot ban the U.S. flagfrom being flown.

GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131

Posted:

JOHN:

THE BEST THING FOR YOU TO DO IS FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF THE LAWS.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Boy, I cannot seem to catch up with my fingers today. Anyhow, here it is,

"2)(a) Any homeowner may display one portable, removable United States flag or official flag of the State of Florida in a respectful manner, and one portable, removable official flag, in a respectful manner, not larger than 41/2 feet by 6 feet, which represents the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard, or a POW-MIA flag, regardless of any covenants, restrictions, bylaws, rules, or requirements of the association.

(b) Any homeowner may erect a freestanding flagpole no more than 20 feet high on any portion of the homeowner's real property, regardless of any covenants, restrictions, bylaws, rules, or requirements of the association, if the flagpole does not obstruct sightlines at intersections and is not erected within or upon an easement. The homeowner may further display in a respectful manner from that flagpole, regardless of any covenants, restrictions, bylaws, rules, or requirements of the association, one official United States flag, not larger than 41/2 feet by 6 feet, and may additionally display one official flag of the State of Florida or the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, or Coast Guard, or a POW-MIA flag. Such additional flag must be equal in size to or smaller than the United States flag.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

Gordon,

Always happy to talk law anytime as I spent 3 years to earn a JD. And I'm a member of the CA bar. Though I'm not familiar with the CA statute(?) you refer to. And the OP is not discussing CA law.

But returning to the broad subject of rights, how 'bout we look at something most here probably have a passing knowledge of. Miranda vs. Arizona. US Supreme Court. Source of the ever-popular Miranda Warning.

You have a right to...You have a right to...You have a right to...
You have a right to...

That's the supreme law of the land.

But a suspect, assuming they are competent and not subjected to undue/illegal/whatever pressure, can waive any "You have a right to..."

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

John,

I believe constitutional rights do no apply to private entities, such as an HOA. Also, our constitutional rights only apply to US citizens.

AZ's flag law says ". . .an assn shall NOT prohibit the outdoor display of any of the following: "the American flag or an official or replica of a flag of the US army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast guard. . . the POW/MIA flag, the AZ state flag and an AZ Indian nations flag." Those are the only flags that can be prohibited, therefore, the assn may prohibit any flag not specified in this statute. At least that's the way I read and interpret the statute. If the intention was to allow a flag from any country to be displayed, then the flag specified would not have to have been specified. The statute could just read "an assn shall not prohibit the outdoor display of any flag of any country".

How many foreign countries do you think would allow our flag to be displayed on residential or business property? I'll bet the only place it can be flown is on the grounds of the U.S. Embassy.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

I wish people would stop posting inaccurate information. Please, people check your facts! The amount of incorrect, inaccurate information posted here, stated as fact and not opinion is absurd. It is no wonder that homeowners associations boards of directors are having such problems. And there is no wonder why there is an ever increasing call for governmental oversight and regulation.

Please, folks, check your facts, before you make unsupported statements. And cite your sources.

" Also, our constitutional rights only apply to US citizens."

Constitutional rights apply to citizens and non-citizens alike in this nation. Why do you think the Supreme Court ruled against the Bush administration regarding prisoners at Gitmo? Hunh? One does not have to be a citizen or even a green card holder to secure the protection and benefit of Constitutional rights in this nation. (About the only rights a non-citizen does not have is to hold federal office--not necessarily state or local office--serve on a jury, and vote.)

GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131

Posted:

GEORGE:

WELL SAID.

CHECKING WITH THE LAWS IS THE BEST THING TO DO.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Perhaps George should practice what he preaches! On another thread he said an auditor does not have to be a CPA which is incorrect and not IAW AICPA standards.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

There you go again Mary, with incorrect inaccurate information. One does not have to be a CPA to audit the books. Indeed, most auditors in major accounting firms are young men and women just out of college who have to get two years of audit experience to even sit for the CPA exams.

Indeed, anyone, Mary, is entitled to audit books and records. However, only a CPA can attest to the results of the audits for many, but not all purposes.

Please get your facts straight. You clearly do not know what you are talking about here, and by disseminating incorrect information, your are leading others down the wrong path.

Please cite the specific AICPA standard that you refer to.

GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131

Posted:

Mary:

You are wrong. I have been very lucky to visit many countries and I have been very pleased to see the United States of America flag in many of them. You would be very
happy to know that many people from other countries love us.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

Getting back to the original question, Dana stated that his docs "have absolutely no mention of flag flying do's and dont's". That means that there are no restrictions on flying any flags, whether it's a U.S. flag, Canadian, Mexican, Iranian, or Confederate. Without any such restriction, the resident in Dana's HOA is free to fly his flag.

The members of the HOA can amend their docs to include a restriction on flags. That restriction cannot prevent residents from flying either the U.S. flag or specific other flags. The restriction can prevent homeowners from flying other flags. But again, until that restriction is added to the docs, the resident is free to fly his flag.

Gordon - feel free to post the law that says otherwise. We can't prove a law doesn't exist, but it is simple for you to prove that it does exist.

GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131

Posted:

Dwight:

What I mean is that checking the law is the best source that we have. I don't understand your sarcasm. I am a very fair and positive person.

I am very sorry that you interpret my message wrong.

In my community in Newport Beach, CA we have a homeowner that has being displaying the flag from Israel for 3 years. The City told the board members that they can't prevent
him to do it. The board members are following the laws in our area.

I don't need to post the laws for you. You feel free to learn them on your own.

My point is very simple "If we are not sure of something" Check things up.

Enjoy your weekend

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

Ok, I looked. I didn't find anything that said an HOA can't have a restriction on the flying of flags from other countries. Therefore you are mistaken and there are no such laws, so HOAs are free to have those restrictions.

Prove me wrong.

And "The City said so" doesn't do it. Officials often make invalid statements. Unless the statement can be backed up (in this case with the citation of a verifiable law), the statement is meaningless.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Thanks, Dwight for one of the best of the posts on this thread.

If displaying a U.S. flag cannot be prohibited by a homeowners association, I wonder why any association would want to restrict the display of just about any other non-commercial flag. I have to strain my imagination and go beyond reasonableness to come up with a reason.

With that said, I believe it is entirely within reason for a homeowners association to establish rules and regulations for the display of flags. For example, I think it would help to define a flag as a "piece of cloth, of varying size, shape, color, and design, attached at one edge to a staff or cord on a vertical pole, and used as the symbol of a nation, state, or organization." Such a definition would exclude "welcome home" type banners.

Further, it would be reasonable to limit the size to no larger than 24 square feet (the equivalent of a 4x6 flag), and to expect it to be in good condition (not frayed or torn or faded).

And, of course, it would be entirely appropriate to limit the height (20-30 feet possibly) and positioning of the flag pole or staff (6-8 feet, possibly) if it is attached by a bracket to the exterior of a unit.

It is also quite permissible to restrict flags from being displayed in common areas, or attached insecurely to balcony railings, or attached to an exterior surface that is the responsibility of the association, and not the unit owner.

But other than that, let many flags fly. I challenge anyone to demonstrably prove that displaying a flag of another country, or even a college flag negatively impacts property values, even if the entire membership of the association decided to display flags.

SusannaM (Florida)
Posts: 366

Posted:

DanaA, in FL, are you happy with the "can of worms" you have opened ???? LOL

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

short, incomplete list of countries that allow a US flag to be flown on private property:

England, Canada, Japan, The Netherlands, Jamaica, South Korea, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Liberia, Kenya, South Africa, The Philippines, AUstralia, New Zealand, Iceland, Greenland, Ireland, Scotland (i know, demi-country), Isreal, Riviera, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Turkey, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Costa Rica, Panama, Mexico, Grenada, Greece....

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

Yes, but are they all members of an H.O.A.? (Tongue in cheek.)

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

George,
I believe that is what I had stated up the thread some place.

Anyhow, there will always be an exception and living in Tn where I do, we have had issues with the confederate flag hanging in places where it started some real harsch reactions. I just read on a Google hit about flag restrictions where a guy had a big confederate flag on his truck and his employer (Walmart) refused to let him park in their lot while he was at work. Ahhh yes, the old south still lives

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 11/07/2008 1:02 PM

But other than that, let many flags fly. I challenge anyone to demonstrably prove that displaying a flag of another country, or even a college flag negatively impacts property values, even if the entire membership of the association decided to display flags.

Actually George, that probably wouldn't be very hard at all. How many people do you think would really be willing to buy into a neighborhood where a bunch of these flags flying?

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Touche, Dwight. I suppose with the history of groups in Idaho that could be an issue. But do you think it is reasonable, right and just to prohibit all other legitimate flags, just to prevent a few?

DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664

Posted:

Hey, we ran most of those boys up north out of the state. Don't go and be trying to drag them back into this.

But because of those boys (and a few other similar cases - look up Fred Phelps and his plans for a monument in Boise), yes, I do think it is reasonable. I would have a hard time saying that "This flag is legitimate, but that one isn't". To try to do so would probably lead to accusations of selective enforcement at a minimum.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

You could allow flags of existing nations (and/or states) only...

not historical nations, not historical flags, not imaginary nations, but only legitimate flags of existing nations. I will leave it up to you to determine if the flag of Tibet qualifies under those rules.

GordonD1 (California)
Posts: 131

Posted:

Dwight:

With respect to you I really hope that you are not a board of director for your community.

Again, reviewing the laws or consulting with an attorney in the matter will help with the good answers.

Try not to be sarcastic, perhaps people will understand you better.

RW1 (Texas)
Posts: 149

Posted:

These threads should be closed after 6 replies.

By then you have a good idea of the general sentiment.

After that they become ad nauseum rehash, personal messages, or pissing contests.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 11/07/2008 12:27 PM
There you go again Mary, with incorrect inaccurate information. One does not have to be a CPA to audit the books. Indeed, most auditors in major accounting firms are young men and women just out of college who have to get two years of audit experience to even sit for the CPA exams.

Indeed, anyone, Mary, is entitled to audit books and records. However, only a CPA can attest to the results of the audits for many, but not all purposes.

Please get your facts straight. You clearly do not know what you are talking about here, and by disseminating incorrect information, your are leading others down the wrong path.

Please cite the specific AICPA standard that you refer to.

I do know when I worked as an accountant at a CPA firm my boss would not allow me to perform an audit because I was not a CPA.

So, look it up yourself, George. Or, better yet, cite the AICPA standard which says a non-CPA can perform an audit!

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BrianB on 11/07/2008 1:11 PM
short, incomplete list of countries that allow a US flag to be flown on private property:

England, Canada, Japan, The Netherlands, Jamaica, South Korea, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Liberia, Kenya, South Africa, The Philippines, AUstralia, New Zealand, Iceland, Greenland, Ireland, Scotland (i know, demi-country), Isreal, Riviera, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Turkey, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Costa Rica, Panama, Mexico, Grenada, Greece....

Thx Brian. I'm really surprised, but pleasantly so. And so many like to say the world hates us!!!

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

The original problem here was that some HOA's have specific rules banning FLAGS, banners, etc. on people's property in Florida. Many home owners protested being unable to fly AMERICAN flags....thus the LAWS allowing homeowners in Florida to fly American flags; along with the verbage in the State Statutes that Donna quoted.

The banning of ANY othe flags or banners are still in effect.

TS5 (Florida)
Posts: 39

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 11/07/2008 5:02 AM

AMEN, brother!

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

This is an old post - if there's a recent issue over flags flying, start a new conversation so you can get updated information.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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